Mungler Posted October 12, 2020 Report Share Posted October 12, 2020 10 hours ago, Vince Green said: You are not talking about comparing like with like, my good friend "E" is a senior manager in a London hospital. Her hospital is filling up rapidly and its political, capacity v resources. She says another week or so and it S hits Fan time. Hospital capacity is almost as fragile as egg shells. Then difficult decisions become who lives and who dies. Once doctors reach that stage they become judge and jury The original concept of Triage has its origins in the battlefield hospitals of WW1, Tri =3 so 3 paths patients were assessed level 1 = not sufficienty wounded to require admission, refer to dressing station Level2 serious enough to admit with good prospect of positive outcome level 3 Too far gone, put them out side and shoot them up with enough morphine to give them a peaceful end In that respect, little has changed But it’s all about the age ranges. The brutality is that when compared against the average life expectancy in this country (81 years of age, less we forget), someone in their 80’s or 90’s copping Covid and checking out is a natural end of life event in the same way as pneumonia and normal flu. Shutting the economy and £3,000,000,000,000 in debt, for what precisely? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted October 12, 2020 Report Share Posted October 12, 2020 (edited) 51 minutes ago, Mungler said: But it’s all about the age ranges. The brutality is that when compared against the average life expectancy in this country (81 years of age, less we forget), someone in their 80’s or 90’s copping Covid and checking out is a natural end of life event in the same way as pneumonia and normal flu. Shutting the economy and £3,000,000,000,000 in debt, for what precisely? Its not about who dies, in a sense they are cost neutral. Its the ones who dont die that are taking up resources once the hospital is full all the other treatments stop for things like heart disease, cancer etc Edited October 12, 2020 by Vince Green Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVB Posted October 12, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2020 19 hours ago, ordnance said: That would be if the older person outlook was poor with or without treatment, you say there are many examples can you share a few. Women over 70 denied breast cancer checks patients over 80 with renal failure denied dialysis (this impacted my father) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted October 12, 2020 Report Share Posted October 12, 2020 (edited) 10 hours ago, Vince Green said: Its not about who dies, in a sense they are cost neutral. Its the ones who dont die that are taking up resources once the hospital is full all the other treatments stop for things like heart disease, cancer etc Agreed. Don’t forget how many will die or have their life limited as a result of poverty in the years to come. And then there’s the NHS itself - 1.5 million employees and a massive financial burn rate. And where is that money / funding going to come from in a tanked economy with 15% unemployment running and Brexit on the horizon. It’s all coming over the horizon and all people want to obsess / polarise over is mask wearing. Talk about fiddling whilst Rome burned. Edit: I really do wish the government would put basic economics on the school syllabus. If only people knew or understood a bit more... Edited October 12, 2020 by Mungler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruno22rf Posted October 12, 2020 Report Share Posted October 12, 2020 Not sure which camp I'm in here? When I was 13, my father (ex RAF PT Instructor) beat me for taking his torch whilst playing "kiss chase" - the impact damaged my Pancreas and I became type 1 diabetic within weeks. As the years have gone by, I have lost the sight in one eye, am experiencing heart failure, suffer with extreme fatigue along with numerous operations (including transplant surgery) and hundreds of Hospital visits along with over 70k injections - my driving licence is restricted to 1 year and I cannot get life Insurance - I'm guessing that I truly deserve to die so that the young ingrates can p**s it up the wall and get on with their, largely, selfish lives? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker570 Posted October 12, 2020 Report Share Posted October 12, 2020 18 minutes ago, Mungler said: Agreed. Don’t forget how many will die or have their life limited as a result of poverty in the years to come. And then there’s the NHS itself - 1.5 million employees and a massive financial burn rate. And where is that money / funding going to come from in a tanked economy with 15% unemployment running and Brexit on the horizon. It’s all coming over the horizon and all people want to obsess / polarise over is mask wearing. Talk about fiddling whilst Rome burned. Edit: I really do wish the government would put basic economics on the school syllabus. If only people knew or understood a bit more... I do not agree with the poverty bit. There is pleanty of food out there to feed a small family for the price of a packet of fags. Trouble is this country and maybe otehrs have been raised on the belief that the country will ook fater them come what may and are at a total loss as to how to fend for themselves. How many of these 'poor' people have alotments for instance. They would prefer to sit on their obese ***** and watch stupid TV on a wall sized screen. I certainly agree with the top heavy NHS but all Nationalised Industries go that way and waste money hand over fist. The country needs to get back to normality without delay, but of course Boris and his advisors have now got themselves up a dead end and cannot turn the car around without losing face and as we all know they do not enjoy doing that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted October 12, 2020 Report Share Posted October 12, 2020 48 minutes ago, bruno22rf said: Not sure which camp I'm in here? When I was 13, my father (ex RAF PT Instructor) beat me for taking his torch whilst playing "kiss chase" - the impact damaged my Pancreas and I became type 1 diabetic within weeks. As the years have gone by, I have lost the sight in one eye, am experiencing heart failure, suffer with extreme fatigue along with numerous operations (including transplant surgery) and hundreds of Hospital visits along with over 70k injections - my driving licence is restricted to 1 year and I cannot get life Insurance - I'm guessing that I truly deserve to die so that the young ingrates can p**s it up the wall and get on with their, largely, selfish lives? You need to take the steps you need to take to protect you and you should self isolate. We can’t stop a virus and we can’t seriously expect fit and healthy young people to stay in indefinitely - being realistic, if I was young again I would be out as many nights and as late as possible and chasing girls no matter what the government or my Nan said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discobob Posted October 13, 2020 Report Share Posted October 13, 2020 12 hours ago, Mungler said: You need to take the steps you need to take to protect you and you should self isolate. We can’t stop a virus and we can’t seriously expect fit and healthy young people to stay in indefinitely - being realistic, if I was young again I would be out as many nights and as late as possible and chasing girls no matter what the government or my Nan said. On the news last night there was a woman in the hospital on a cpap - when asked how she got it she said no idea and that she had been self isolating all the time. Another guy said "3 weeks ago I was at my daughters wedding"...... two different scenario's there - damned if you do, damned if you don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted October 13, 2020 Report Share Posted October 13, 2020 11 minutes ago, discobob said: On the news last night there was a woman in the hospital on a cpap - when asked how she got it she said no idea and that she had been self isolating all the time. Another guy said "3 weeks ago I was at my daughters wedding"...... two different scenario's there - damned if you do, damned if you don't. Part of the trouble I believe is that people who have done something they shouldn't have are reluctant to admit it to track and trace afterwards. So the real cause of the infection and the real contacts go unrecorded Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVB Posted October 13, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2020 1 hour ago, discobob said: On the news last night there was a woman in the hospital on a cpap - when asked how she got it she said no idea and that she had been self isolating all the time. Another guy said "3 weeks ago I was at my daughters wedding"...... two different scenario's there - damned if you do, damned if you don't. And if the woman did get it when self isolating (which I doubt) then it proves that lockdown is pointless! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted October 13, 2020 Report Share Posted October 13, 2020 1 hour ago, AVB said: And if the woman did get it when self isolating (which I doubt) then it proves that lockdown is pointless! Not at all, self isolating reduces the risk, I don't think anybody can doubt that but there are still groceries and post coming into the house that could bring infection. Its a percentages thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted October 13, 2020 Report Share Posted October 13, 2020 22 hours ago, Mungler said: Agreed. Don’t forget how many will die or have their life limited as a result of poverty in the years to come. And then there’s the NHS itself - 1.5 million employees and a massive financial burn rate. And where is that money / funding going to come from in a tanked economy with 15% unemployment running and Brexit on the horizon. It’s all coming over the horizon and all people want to obsess / polarise over is mask wearing. Talk about fiddling whilst Rome burned. Edit: I really do wish the government would put basic economics on the school syllabus. If only people knew or understood a bit more... On the plus side many will have saved a lot of money by not eating out going to clubs buying clothes to show off in holidays fuel and new cars The poverty line doesn’t make it I’m afraid its not real money there spending its also not personal dept Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
das Posted October 13, 2020 Report Share Posted October 13, 2020 On 09/10/2020 at 16:58, Walker570 said: The country and politicians have become a bunch of scaredy cats. Over 200 people will die today from the effects of smoking. I'm now over 80yrs of age and more than happy to take my chances which I have done since being bombed in the early forties, manages to avoid polio, TB, hooping cough, dyptheria and four other nasty flu outbreaks which killed thousands. The problem now is, the government are dammed if they do and dammed if they don't. There is little doubt the whole fiasco is dragging the country down to rock bottom. The people should be left to use their own common sense which seems very lacking in those in charge and those advising. I'm sure someone on here will come up with a graph or two to prove me wrong ..... or try to. As another 70 plus, your post is very apt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
das Posted October 13, 2020 Report Share Posted October 13, 2020 On 10/10/2020 at 13:20, blackbird said: I just can’t see the problem the elderly & vulnerable go into self isolation if they want & the rest of us crack on with our lives, what if it takes 20yrs to find a vaccine? The elderly have had their lives now don’t be so selfish & let the rest of us have ours. tin hat on . I've had a good run thanks. But this flu is growing fast, enjoy your good run now before it obliterates the lot of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted October 13, 2020 Report Share Posted October 13, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, das said: I've had a good run thanks. But this flu is growing fast, enjoy your good run now before it obliterates the lot of us. But it won’t. My mum (well into her 70’s and getting over cancer) had it back in March (proven with an antibodies test) - 2 weeks feeling like poop in bed and then back in the game. She lives with my 83 year old father (heart complaint and on blood thinners etc) and it didn’t touch him. They are now rocking around like they are bullet proof 😆 My best man’s dad - fat ex smoker plumber with asbestos related issues (he’s banked compo), he needed 2 weeks on oxygen and was then back in the game. If this virus was ironing out people under 50, I’d nail the front door shut - but it’s not. It’s nasty strong flu and it’s taking the old and vulnerable and it is the old and vulnerable who need to isolate and take care - not everyone will be affected to the point of facing death and the sooner those people get it the sooner we stand a chance of herd immunity and with the fit and healthy back to work we stand less of a chance being in rags next year. Edited October 13, 2020 by Mungler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted October 13, 2020 Report Share Posted October 13, 2020 (edited) On 12/10/2020 at 19:02, bruno22rf said: Not sure which camp I'm in here? When I was 13, my father (ex RAF PT Instructor) beat me for taking his torch whilst playing "kiss chase" - the impact damaged my Pancreas and I became type 1 diabetic within weeks. As the years have gone by, I have lost the sight in one eye, am experiencing heart failure, suffer with extreme fatigue along with numerous operations (including transplant surgery) and hundreds of Hospital visits along with over 70k injections - my driving licence is restricted to 1 year and I cannot get life Insurance - I'm guessing that I truly deserve to die so that the young ingrates can p**s it up the wall and get on with their, largely, selfish lives? I really feel for you, seriously, it can’t be much fun at all, and I can totally see why some blame all those kids at uni’, but to be fair to them they stumped up for this some time ago. If the government, unis or whatever had decided the uni’s weren’t going to open, then they wouldn’t be there. My son is at Northumbria, in his first week ( he’s in his final year ) a mate of a mate who was just visiting, brought Covid with him, so the entire houseful had to test and then go into lockdown for two weeks. The uni supplied them with food, the lecturers are threatening to strike, all lectures are online and yet the uni’s are still continuing to stay open, and the reason is revenue. Money, nothing more; they don’t want to refund hundreds of thousands of students anymore than the landlords do who rent out properties to them. At a similar age to those students, thinking I was going to live forever and feeling pretty indestructible, I know I’d be pretty blasé about this virus too. All I have said to my two is the same as I told them this last summer when they were back at home but working......‘don’t bring it home‘. I don’t think we can realistically blame kids for being kids. Edited October 13, 2020 by Scully Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted October 13, 2020 Report Share Posted October 13, 2020 Quote All I have said to my two is the same as I told them this last summer when they were back at home but working......‘don’t bring it home‘. I don’t think we can realistically blame kids for being kids. Yes, the people i see mostly acting irresponsibly are adults not children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVB Posted October 13, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2020 6 hours ago, Old farrier said: On the plus side many will have saved a lot of money by not eating out going to clubs buying clothes to show off in holidays fuel and new cars The poverty line doesn’t make it I’m afraid its not real money there spending its also not personal dept But saving money doesn’t help the economy. People need to spend in order for the economy to grow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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