Browning 20g firing malfunction

[Shotkam]

I have a 30 year old Browning Citori Grade 3 20g OU in which I replaced the firing pins 18 months ago.

Maybe I have fired 5000 carts in this gun since then.

Over the last couple of weeks I have had 4 cart. not fire in the bottom barrel.

The end of the firing pin looks pitted.

Genuine Browning pins were the replacements.

Is this normal after 5000 carts I am wondering. If so the quality must have gone right down. I hear people say some Brownings have pin issues.

I am debating wether to replace the springs also.

Any views on this would be appreciated.

A

[bruno22rf]

Common for bottom pin to go first as the design of an OU tends to drag the lower pin against the primer before it either slides back or a spring pulls it back, replacing the return spring, which I believe the Citori uses, would be a good idea, replacement pins are cheap and a good clean in the pin hole would be wise in case a bit of oil has gummed up over the years.

[Shotkam]

17 minutes ago, bruno22rf said:

Common for bottom pin to go first as the design of an OU tends to drag the lower pin against the primer before it either slides back or a spring pulls it back, replacing the return spring, which I believe the Citori uses, would be a good idea, replacement pins are cheap and a good clean in the pin hole would be wise in case a bit of oil has gummed up over the years.

Ah yes, good idea replacing return spring as a lo cost precaution as well as the pin.

5000 still seems hardly any shots before replacement though.

[DUNKS]

They do say that aftermarket firing pins are better.

[Shotkam]

I think that a lot of firing pins lasted so long in years gone by is that pressures within cartridges were lower back in the day.

I have just checked thorough a load of empties and several of the Black gold have punctured primers. There was one Lyalvale game cartridge punctured but no clay cartridges in several brands.

So this has effectively' allowed the end of the firing pin to be eroded by a combination of intense temperature and massive pressure, produced by the combination of ignited powder and primer compound burning ,which has travelled back through the primer  'Flash hole' and on through the punctured primer face. Consequently creating a similar effect to spark erosion but without the electricity, with no mechanical contact with the firing pin.

So I can be expecting to replacing the lower firing pin annually from now on @ approx £ 30 a time for the pin. 

So it seems that it is the high performance game cartridges that are prone to puncturing.

[enfieldspares]

If the primers are puncturing it is usually because your firing pin is too long and/or badly profiled at the tip. If you are getting it on the bottom barrel only and not both barrels then it definitely isn't IMHO a cartridge issue but a firing pin length or shape issue or both.

Edited May 16, 2021 by enfieldspares

[London Best]

Shotkam, you are wrong in saying that cartridge pressures were lower back in the day. Pressures in nitro cartridges have been the same for 100 years.

[DUNKS]

40 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

If the primers are puncturing it is usually because your firing pin is too long and/or badly profiled at the tip. If you are getting it on the bottom barrel only and not both barrels then it definitely isn't IMHO a cartridge issue but a firing pin length or shape issue or both.

The problem with Browning bottom barrel strikers is that as you open the gun on a fired cartridge the bottom striker wipes the primer because the hammer is forward pushing the striker out. A fraction more opening and the hammer starts to cock allowing the striker spring to pull the striker back but not before it's wiped the bottom of the cartridge.

 

[London Best]

Just bad design, really.

[DUNKS]

21 minutes ago, London Best said:

Just bad design, really.

Yep!

[Westward]

Some years back a friend needed a new bottom pin after barely 2000 rounds. Some last 40 or 50,000.

It is indeed poor design because John Browning, working in a shed with hand tools, copied the hinge design common to shallow action sxs guns, rather than the technically superior but more complex Boss system. Having the fulcrum below the breech means a very deep action and the resulting problems include erosion of the bottom pin which has to be angled in order that the hammer can actually strike it.

[Shotkam]

Shotkam, you are wrong in saying that cartridge pressures were lower back in the day. Pressures in nitro cartridges have been the same for 100 years.

 

Fair comment London Best.

 

So the pressures will be the same with a 1970 2 1/2" 1 1/16oz load Grand Prix 6 as it is with a 2021 Black Gold 32g 5 ?

Edited May 16, 2021 by Shotkam

[London Best]

2 hours ago, Shotkam said:

Shotkam, you are wrong in saying that cartridge pressures were lower back in the day. Pressures in nitro cartridges have been the same for 100 years.

•  

 

Fair comment London Best.

 

So the pressures will be the same with a 1970 2 1/2" 1 1/16oz load Grand Prix 6 as it is with a 2021 Black Gold 32g 5 ?

I have never used the Black Gold cartridge to which you refer, but am I right in thinking it is a 2 3/4” cartridge? In which case it is not a direct comparison with a 2 1/2” Grand Prix as the required proof pressure is just 1/4 ton per sq. in. more. But if it is a 2 1/2 inch cartridge then, yes, the pressure will be comparable to a similar cartridge from 1970, or even 1930. The 32g load and the size 5 shot are irrelevant. The 2 1/2” guns are proved for that load.

[Shotkam]

The muzzle velocity of the Black Gold is higher than the various brands spent cartridge cases I have that have not suffered blowback through the primer.

So I would suggest that increased muzzle velocity increases back pressure through the primer and pressure over a certain level causes the primer to fail in a Browning with the firing pin orientated such as it is.

[welshwarrior]

With Brownings I always replace the striker, striker, return spring and the main spring when they start playing up.  Quick simple cheap fix in 95% of cases. 

[DUNKS]

1 hour ago, welshwarrior said:

With Brownings I always replace the striker, striker, return spring and the main spring when they start playing up.  Quick simple cheap fix in 95% of cases. 

Thanks for that. Do you use original Browning parts or aftermarket?

[Shotkam]

I was told by a knowledgeable person in the industry that 100% the lower firing pin orientation is a design fault.

Replacing the return spring or the main spring will make no difference. Main springs only need replacing if they develop a break in the coil.

It is something we have to live with and as a replacement pin costs £30 delivered it is acceptable.

[DUNKS]

Its not the orientation it's the fact that it is not a rebounding lock/

[welshwarrior]

5 hours ago, Shotkam said:

I was told by a knowledgeable person in the industry that 100% the lower firing pin orientation is a design fault.

Replacing the return spring or the main spring will make no difference. Main springs only need replacing if they develop a break in the coil.

It is something we have to live with and as a replacement pin costs £30 delivered it is acceptable.

Have to agree to disagree. 

[London Best]

6 hours ago, Shotkam said:

I was told by a knowledgeable person in the industry that 100% the lower firing pin orientation is a design fault.

Replacing the return spring or the main spring will make no difference. Main springs only need replacing if they develop a break in the coil.

It is something we have to live with and as a replacement pin costs £30 delivered it is acceptable.

With respect, you are missing the point that Welshwarrior actually knows what he is talking about.

[Shotkam]

4 hours ago, welshwarrior said:

Have to agree to disagree. 

I am just guided by the so called experts, so yes quite possibly the main spring needs replacing also, so I shall follow your advice and do just that. Thanks for the feedback.

3 hours ago, London Best said:

With respect, you are missing the point that Welshwarrior actually knows what he is talking about.

Fair enough, I'll follow his recommendations then.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Just like changing the clutch when a gearbox is out, whenever you change the lower firing pin it makes sense to change the spring as it is usually only every couple of years.

[DUNKS]

Sorry folk but as I see it replacing the main spring is no help at all. In fact just the opposite as a strong main spring forces the striker harder into the cartridge. Think about it. I am being advised by a major Browning agent with one of the largest gunshops in the area. Been in business for yonks. They are not gunsmiths but have vast experience.

[Raw and wriggley]

Y not just get rid and get yourself a beretta 🤪

[Westley]

Whatever your course of action, DO ensure that the pin, spring and the relative housing is clean and free from any carbon. Whenever I have had misfiring problems on Browning/Miroku bottom barrels, it has been due to carbon build up on the pin and housing which has required some light oil and fine wet and dry to clean off. Once thoroughly cleaned, a SMALL amount of gun oil on the parts and re-assemble, job done. I do mine a couple of times a year and never have any problems.