Tradesman

[Wiggum]

I’m a sparky and don’t charge less than £160 for an EICR but hate doing them so not too bothered if I lose out. Recently had a guy ask for prices to do EICR’s on 4 apartments (3 x 2 bed and 1 x 1 bed) and said the last guy charged him £200 to do all 4 and it didn’t take him a full day to do them 🤔 also some of the properties are disgusting with the tenants having no respect for the house as they don’t own them, fault finding can be a nightmare also when they’re in a state, I’m lucky I’m absolutely stacked with work and don’t need to advertise as I work with 3 or 4 builders that keep me busy with new builds and extensions 

[Remimax]

20 hours ago, Wiggum said:

I’m a sparky and don’t charge less than £160 for an EICR but hate doing them so not too bothered if I lose out. Recently had a guy ask for prices to do EICR’s on 4 apartments (3 x 2 bed and 1 x 1 bed) and said the last guy charged him £200 to do all 4 and it didn’t take him a full day to do them 🤔 also some of the properties are disgusting with the tenants having no respect for the house as they don’t own them, fault finding can be a nightmare also when they’re in a state, I’m lucky I’m absolutely stacked with work and don’t need to advertise as I work with 3 or 4 builders that keep me busy with new builds and extensions 

same here you can bet all 4 were toilet paper certs in that time frame.

[Diver One]

I'd like to see a copy of the certs, as I'm sure you would! The codings being given now are quite often just a joke

 

RCD not working C3

exposed live terminals C3

no smoke detection C1 ( this isnt even covered in BS7671, so at the very worst should only be a comment ). And proliferation of the word 'illegal'. For the non technical,the Wiring Regs (BS7671) are not a Statute Law, so non compliance cannot be 'illegal'

i am just compiling an independent report on an EICR done on some flats, my 5 year old granddaughter could have guessed better test results

[Remimax]

On 13/08/2021 at 21:37, Diver One said:

I'd like to see a copy of the certs, as I'm sure you would! The codings being given now are quite often just a joke

 

RCD not working C3

exposed live terminals C3

no smoke detection C1 ( this isnt even covered in BS7671, so at the very worst should only be a comment ). And proliferation of the word 'illegal'. For the non technical,the Wiring Regs (BS7671) are not a Statute Law, so non compliance cannot be 'illegal'

i am just compiling an independent report on an EICR done on some flats, my 5 year old granddaughter could have guessed better test results

see it all the time EICRs that don't even come close to matching the consumer unit layout   and test results that are obviously made up in the van.

these are yer £75 specials.

[Jim Neal]

I thought it might be a help to add my experiences of pricing talked about above, for some perspective.

My plumber currently charges £96 inc vat for a combined visit for boiler service and landlord safety test.  That's for a fairly average size 3-bed semi with a 28kW combi and a gas hob.   He is also a friend of mine, but that doesn't influence his pricing - it does however give me the confidence that's it's a legit job.

I had my first EICR done in March this year, at a cost of £165 inc vat, which I thought was very reasonable indeed considering he was there for several hours (i could achieve a similar turnover in half the time in my trade, in the right circumstances).  Again, the electrician is someone I know - he's my plumber's cousin, and his brother is a friend of mine too, so once again I know he's playing straight down the line.

I'd be worried about the validity of an EICR done for £50 - £80.  OK, on the one hand all you want is a piece of paper to tick the legal boxes as cheaply as possible, and in reality what's going to go wrong as long as Frank Spencer hasn't wired your house up?  The risk is very low.  But on the other hand, what if it came back to bite you on the backside if there was an electrical fire that killed people?  Who is going to be liable?  The landlord?  Or the sparky who filled out the hooky report?

The way I see it, with a new EICR being required every 5 years, and allowing for a modest price increase over time, it's probably going to average out at about £40 a year for a rental property over the next couple of decades to get it done properly.  That's less than half the cost of the gas test, and I don't have a problem with the cost of either tbh.

[yates]

You should consider painting and decorating. I’ve just been quoted £700.00 to paint my sitting room and I have to purchase the paint on top of that☹️

[NatureBoy]

4 hours ago, yates said:

You should consider painting and decorating. I’ve just been quoted £700.00 to paint my sitting room and I have to purchase the paint on top of that☹️

How big your room Yates? How many days did they say it would take? What's your expectation, spec/job entail/types of finish/colour scheme and brand/quality of paint to be used etc? How many doors, frames, type of trim etc? Is that with carpet up appliances and furniture removed or institute? Who will be moving it? Your time scale, ease of access, would you need access during job etc? Can be lot of variables on what seems simple one off single/main room of house jobs. Variables on all or some of these things can easily add or SAVE time and cost if not made clear or asked by both customer and tradesman. All worth discussing at time of getting estimate/site visit. If not this can be how estimates vary so much at times and some thinking over priced.     NB

[Remimax]

my builder M8 upsets the painters his fav quote " if you can **** you can paint "

[Vince Green]

Any tradesman, any trade will do well if you turn up when you say you will. Do what you agreed to do in a proper workmanlike way and don't charge cowboy prices.

[yates]

5 hours ago, NatureBoy said:

How big your room Yates? How many days did they say it would take? What's your expectation, spec/job entail/types of finish/colour scheme and brand/quality of paint to be used etc? How many doors, frames, type of trim etc? Is that with carpet up appliances and furniture removed or institute? Who will be moving it? Your time scale, ease of access, would you need access during job etc? Can be lot of variables on what seems simple one off single/main room of house jobs. Variables on all or some of these things can easily add or SAVE time and cost if not made clear or asked by both customer and tradesman. All worth discussing at time of getting estimate/site visit. If not this can be how estimates vary so much at times and some thinking over priced.     NB

Hi NatureBoy 

The room is roughly 30ft by 14ft. I have previously  done it myself in under three days. Two coats of emulsion on ceiling and walls. Gloss/undercoat(water based). The quote is based over three days. I will remove all furniture, rugs etc. The floor is wood. Unfortunately due to work commitments I am struggling for time. I was expecting to be unhappy but would have accepted a quote from around £400/500 but £700.00 is far too much

[Vince Green]

26 minutes ago, yates said:

Hi NatureBoy 

The room is roughly 30ft by 14ft. I have previously  done it myself in under three days. Two coats of emulsion on ceiling and walls. Gloss/undercoat(water based). The quote is based over three days. I will remove all furniture, rugs etc. The floor is wood. Unfortunately due to work commitments I am struggling for time. I was expecting to be unhappy but would have accepted a quote from around £400/500 but £700.00 is far too much

To be fair, 700 sounds about ball park. The big variable is how much time is actually spent in prep before glossing. This is where you have to SOOOOOO know your tradesman. An Eastern European with a paintbrush subcontracted to somebody who turns up in a Ford Ranger  Raptor covered in bling is not going to cut it for me.

11 hours ago, yates said:

You should consider painting and decorating. I’ve just been quoted £700.00 to paint my sitting room and I have to purchase the paint on top of that☹️

Its a trade thats hugely in demand, a bloke that decorated the flat I am sitting in now is currently booked up for probably two years ahead but he is worth waiting for. Trouble is I don't have two years to spare

Edited August 17, 2021 by Vince Green

[Huntly]

I was faced with the same choice a few years ago after redundancy, I decided that getting a trade would hopefully mean never being out of work again. I looked at all the trades but found it hard to get a start with any of them due to being older.

I eventually found a position as an adult trainee electrician. Up here in Scotland this means completing the same academic training as the younger apprentices, but only attending college one day a fortnight, very little teaching so you are effectively left to self teach using the coursework and online materials. I did all my practical learning on the job. I personally found it extremely difficult to balance my work, family life and also complete the required college work. I imagine that the younger lads have it easier due to having block release to attend college but as an adult trainee my hourly rate is considerably more than a normal apprentice which is very important for paying the mortgage! I should have sat my final assessments by now but still waiting because of Covid. I still have a busy job so getting the qualification is not vital but will be nice to attain that title, along with a pay rise!

Whatever you choose to do, as long as you are prepared to have a few years of extra work until qualified, you will be fine. Good luck!

[Jim Neal]

On 17/08/2021 at 08:12, yates said:

You should consider painting and decorating. I’ve just been quoted £700.00 to paint my sitting room and I have to purchase the paint on top of that☹️

How much do you earn in 3 days?  Because your decorator doesn't "earn" £700 from that job, that's his turnover.  He has to run a vehicle, buy his equipment, insure himself, pay his accountant every year, plus many other costs of being self-employed.

He doesn't get sick pay, holiday pay, paternity pay, a company pension, company healthcare or any other perks of being employed.  If he's not working, he's not earning.

When all's said and done he's probably taking home between £15 and £20 an hour, so how does that stack up against what you earn?  If it's a lot more why don't you quit your job and go self-employed as a decorator because it's easy money, right?

Or you could take three days' holiday and do it yourself which will be less expensive? Plus you'll get some leftover time on your third day to sit and have a beer whilst admiring your handiwork

 

[yates]

9 hours ago, Jim Neal said:

How much do you earn in 3 days?  Because your decorator doesn't "earn" £700 from that job, that's his turnover.  He has to run a vehicle, buy his equipment, insure himself, pay his accountant every year, plus many other costs of being self-employed.

He doesn't get sick pay, holiday pay, paternity pay, a company pension, company healthcare or any other perks of being employed.  If he's not working, he's not earning.

When all's said and done he's probably taking home between £15 and £20 an hour, so how does that stack up against what you earn?  If it's a lot more why don't you quit your job and go self-employed as a decorator because it's easy money, right?

Or you could take three days' holiday and do it yourself which will be less expensive? Plus you'll get some leftover time on your third day to sit and have a beer whilst admiring your handiwork

 

Good observations Jim. After earning my wages, paying tax , NI and other stoppages I am not going to commit £700.00 to this project. I have received further quotes from highly recommended contractors for significantly less that of the first quote but will have to wait as they are already booked out for the next few months. Your second option is the most likely Avenue to follow but a career change is now being considered 

[Wilts#Dave]

20 hours ago, Jim Neal said:

How much do you earn in 3 days?  Because your decorator doesn't "earn" £700 from that job, that's his turnover.  He has to run a vehicle, buy his equipment, insure himself, pay his accountant every year, plus many other costs of being self-employed.

He doesn't get sick pay, holiday pay, paternity pay, a company pension, company healthcare or any other perks of being employed.  If he's not working, he's not earning.

When all's said and done he's probably taking home between £15 and £20 an hour, so how does that stack up against what you earn?  If it's a lot more why don't you quit your job and go self-employed as a decorator because it's easy money, right?

Or you could take three days' holiday and do it yourself which will be less expensive? Plus you'll get some leftover time on your third day to sit and have a beer whilst admiring your handiwork

 

Agree with the majority of your points, as a self employed tradesman myself. 
Personally don’t think a decorators skill set is worth £230 odd a day but that’s obviously opinion/area based only as you wouldn’t get much work where I am charging such prices. Good luck if able to charge it though! 
Spot on with your main point, always amazes me how some people get so jealous at the thought of you potentially earning more/similar money to themselves when they’re in an ‘important’ job and wear a suit to work, not work trousers and hoody 😂

A good tradesman has a wealth of knowledge and in the majority of cases carries out work you’ve no hope of doing yourself to the same standard, especially in a similar time frame. This is worth a considerable amount of money these days, whether people like it or not!  

[Jim Neal]

One thing I forgot to mention above was it's unclear whether said decorator is charging VAT or not.  If that £700 is with VAT then the net is £583, which changes the picture somewhat.

It's quite unlikely that a one man band decorator will be VAT-registered because almost all of their turnover will be labour.  In a lot of cases the customer is asked to buy the materials because it keeps the guy's turnover down below the VAT threshold, currently £85k.

Extrapolating the £700/3 days example into a 46-week, 5 days per week working year, presuming a full order book throughout, his turnover would be £53,666

Tell you what, I've almost talked myself into a change of trade

[yates]

7 hours ago, Jim Neal said:

One thing I forgot to mention above was it's unclear whether said decorator is charging VAT or not.  If that £700 is with VAT then the net is £583, which changes the picture somewhat.

It's quite unlikely that a one man band decorator will be VAT-registered because almost all of their turnover will be labour.  In a lot of cases the customer is asked to buy the materials because it keeps the guy's turnover down below the VAT threshold, currently £85k.

Extrapolating the £700/3 days example into a 46-week, 5 days per week working year, presuming a full order book throughout, his turnover would be £53,666

Tell you what, I've almost talked myself into a change of trade

I’ve no idea if the quote includes VAT. I have no problems with anyone wanting to make as much money as they possibly can but in comparison to the first quote I have accepted another at £480.00 for the same job. He has even directed me to where i can purchase the materials at lower prices. Suppose it’s the same as most things in life that you have to research and shop around 👍

[Jim Neal]

17 hours ago, yates said:

I’ve no idea if the quote includes VAT. I have no problems with anyone wanting to make as much money as they possibly can but in comparison to the first quote I have accepted another at £480.00 for the same job. He has even directed me to where i can purchase the materials at lower prices. Suppose it’s the same as most things in life that you have to research and shop around 👍

As I said I very much doubt it's got VAT attached, only bigger firms with high turnovers will be above the threshold.

Of course, you have to get a good idea of the going rate and make your choices.  Buying goods is simple: a TV for £300 is always a better deal than paying £400 for exactly the same model somewhere else.  However, services are more complicated, and cheapest is rarely best in terms of value for money.   But who knows, you may have found a really diligent new starter to decorating who will do a cracking job at that price, he might be keen to get himself busy by undercutting the going rates of the more established tradesmen around him.

A 3 day job for £480 = £160 day rate = £20 an hour turnover, before he has to pay out any of his expenses, so in reality he's not much above the pay scale of asking if you want fries with that.  Not the life for me.

[Wilts#Dave]

23 hours ago, Jim Neal said:

As I said I very much doubt it's got VAT attached, only bigger firms with high turnovers will be above the threshold.

Of course, you have to get a good idea of the going rate and make your choices.  Buying goods is simple: a TV for £300 is always a better deal than paying £400 for exactly the same model somewhere else.  However, services are more complicated, and cheapest is rarely best in terms of value for money.   But who knows, you may have found a really diligent new starter to decorating who will do a cracking job at that price, he might be keen to get himself busy by undercutting the going rates of the more established tradesmen around him.

A 3 day job for £480 = £160 day rate = £20 an hour turnover, before he has to pay out any of his expenses, so in reality he's not much above the pay scale of asking if you want fries with that.  Not the life for me.

£160 a day not much above a burger flipper? Not sure how you arrived at that. A decorator has very little in the way of expenses/tools in comparison to lots of other trades for a start, not to mention zero qualifications/specialist training required to set up as one! 
Fairly obvious there are good/bad and high/low end in every trade/service with the money going up and down accordingly, as well as the usual supply and demand pricing.

Decorating is tough at the lower end (small domestic jobs) where people struggle to justify paying proper money for a good job as they know they could slap some paint on themselves if push come to shove (and think they do it equally well).   
 

[Jim Neal]

23 hours ago, Wilts#Dave said:

£160 a day not much above a burger flipper? Not sure how you arrived at that.

I'll share the workings out I made on my jotter

8 hours a day on the job, plus travelling time, plus time doing your paperwork, on the phone to customers, fetching things from suppliers, visiting quotes, working out the quotes, having to go back to the occasional job to do the inevitable bit of snagging, time now and again to sort out and maintain your kit, maintaining your vehicle... many more things could go on that list..... all the hours add up to considerably more than the hours "worked" on the job.  

What dilutes down the £/hour even more is time off, which we all need to take, normally 4 weeks annual leave including the bank holidays is standard for the full-time employed.  Occasionally when you're self-employed you get a few blank days in your diary which you can't fill or have to take for family commitments etc, quite possibly adding another 10 unpaid days annually.

Working 8 hours a day, 5 days a week totals 40 hours a week.  Over the course of a year if you didn't work for a total of 6 working weeks you're working 46x40=1840 hours, so if we use the £160 day rate at £20/hour you're turning over £36,800.  In reality, that turnover figure when adjusted to a 52 week year to compare properly with employment is not £20/hour, it's £17.69/hour.   That's TURNOVER, not money in your pocket.  Then you have to subtract all the accompanying expenses of being self-employed.  Of course, a decorator will have a fairly high profit margin, nobody will argue with that, you could reasonably presume 70%, and that would equate to £12.39/hour profit.

Then you pay income tax at 20% on any profit that exceeds your personal allowance (currently £12,570 for most of us).  So, if our example decorator is turning over £36,800 with a margin of 70% leaving him £25,760 profit, subtracting his personal allowance from that will leave £13,190 profit upon which he is taxed at 20%, so he pays £2,638 income tax.  That leaves him £23,122

Then he pays Class 2 National Insurance Contributions, currently £158.60 for the year.

Then he pays Class 4 National Insurance contributions calculated at 9% of his turnover above an allowance of £9,568 of his profit, which is a payment of £1457.28

This leaves him £21,506.12

He's working for £11.69/hour for his PAID hours on the job.

But then you have to factor in all the "unpaid" hours as I mentioned above which, of course, it's impossible to put a figure on but will drag his real-world earnings down to somewhere nearer a tenner an hour for all the effort he puts in.

Not much more than minimum wage, which begs the question: For the very little difference in financial reward, why work your butt off for such a rate with all the hassle and stress of being self-employed, when you could just go back and forth to a brainless 8 hour shift and not give a monkey's about the job you do?

That's not even factoring in pensions/healthcare which may be included in a salary package.

That, my friend, is how I arrived at that

It's just a shame that many people looking to hire a self-employed tradesman don't have such a clear picture of exactly how little of "the price" is actually going in his pocket.

 

[Wilts#Dave]

11 hours ago, Jim Neal said:

I'll share the workings out I made on my jotter

8 hours a day on the job, plus travelling time, plus time doing your paperwork, on the phone to customers, fetching things from suppliers, visiting quotes, working out the quotes, having to go back to the occasional job to do the inevitable bit of snagging, time now and again to sort out and maintain your kit, maintaining your vehicle... many more things could go on that list..... all the hours add up to considerably more than the hours "worked" on the job.  

What dilutes down the £/hour even more is time off, which we all need to take, normally 4 weeks annual leave including the bank holidays is standard for the full-time employed.  Occasionally when you're self-employed you get a few blank days in your diary which you can't fill or have to take for family commitments etc, quite possibly adding another 10 unpaid days annually.

Working 8 hours a day, 5 days a week totals 40 hours a week.  Over the course of a year if you didn't work for a total of 6 working weeks you're working 46x40=1840 hours, so if we use the £160 day rate at £20/hour you're turning over £36,800.  In reality, that turnover figure when adjusted to a 52 week year to compare properly with employment is not £20/hour, it's £17.69/hour.   That's TURNOVER, not money in your pocket.  Then you have to subtract all the accompanying expenses of being self-employed.  Of course, a decorator will have a fairly high profit margin, nobody will argue with that, you could reasonably presume 70%, and that would equate to £12.39/hour profit.

Then you pay income tax at 20% on any profit that exceeds your personal allowance (currently £12,570 for most of us).  So, if our example decorator is turning over £36,800 with a margin of 70% leaving him £25,760 profit, subtracting his personal allowance from that will leave £13,190 profit upon which he is taxed at 20%, so he pays £2,638 income tax.  That leaves him £23,122

Then he pays Class 2 National Insurance Contributions, currently £158.60 for the year.

Then he pays Class 4 National Insurance contributions calculated at 9% of his turnover above an allowance of £9,568 of his profit, which is a payment of £1457.28

This leaves him £21,506.12

He's working for £11.69/hour for his PAID hours on the job.

But then you have to factor in all the "unpaid" hours as I mentioned above which, of course, it's impossible to put a figure on but will drag his real-world earnings down to somewhere nearer a tenner an hour for all the effort he puts in.

Not much more than minimum wage, which begs the question: For the very little difference in financial reward, why work your butt off for such a rate with all the hassle and stress of being self-employed, when you could just go back and forth to a brainless 8 hour shift and not give a monkey's about the job you do?

That's not even factoring in pensions/healthcare which may be included in a salary package.

That, my friend, is how I arrived at that

It's just a shame that many people looking to hire a self-employed tradesman don't have such a clear picture of exactly how little of "the price" is actually going in his pocket.

 

Blimey, that’s some heavy reading my friend. 
 Everyone pays tax and ni so no big deal there, certainly shouldn’t be how you arrive at an hourly rate! 
I’m self employed and run an electrical contracting business so well aware how things work thanks. 
How you value your time when you’re self employed us entirely up to you, as is what you charge. You’re preaching to the wrong person I’m afraid 😉
 

[Konnie]

As a person who works within the building industry, may I ask on how many days do you give money back if you don't do a full day,as  trades I come across 

Plumbers

Plasterers

Elecs

Kitchen & bathroom fitters

Tilers

If self-employed give day price when work /job is done go home, and bill for day.

[Jim Neal]

9 hours ago, Wilts#Dave said:

Blimey, that’s some heavy reading my friend. 
 Everyone pays tax and ni so no big deal there, certainly shouldn’t be how you arrive at an hourly rate! 
I’m self employed and run an electrical contracting business so well aware how things work thanks. 
How you value your time when you’re self employed us entirely up to you, as is what you charge. You’re preaching to the wrong person I’m afraid 😉
 

Sorry to have overloaded your main circuit breaker

Working a 40 hour week on minimum wage nets our burger flipper circa £17k p/a (I'll spare you the several paragraphs of maths :)).  For the extra few thousand a year in my example given above, I personally do not consider it worth all the aggravation and stress of running a business only charging that sort of rate.  That's merely the point I've been trying to make: it's got to be worth your while financially to be self-employed, which I don't believe a day rate of £160 facilitates.

It sounds like you're fulfilling the sparkie's stereotype of "king of the site" tbh, looking down at other trades thinking they're not worth as much as you.  The bare truth is you're just another bloke hired in to do a job, same as we all are, and if the customer values our input to their lives at the price we charge they'll happily pay the money.

3 hours ago, Konnie said:

As a person who works within the building industry, may I ask on how many days do you give money back if you don't do a full day,as  trades I come across 

Plumbers

Plasterers

Elecs

Kitchen & bathroom fitters

Tilers

If self-employed give day price when work /job is done go home, and bill for day.

If I'm deciphering your question correctly, is the following an example of what you mean?

I'm a builder and you want a fence putting up.  I quote you a price for three days' work.  On day three, at around 15:30 I stand back, admire my handiwork, pack my kit up, return your coffee cup to the kitchen and invite you to inspect the finished job.

Do you expect me to reduce the labour bill by 90 minutes pro rata?  Because where am I supposed to go during the next 90 minutes to make up a day's earnings?  Also, who's going to pay me for the time it takes to sit at my computer and type up the invoice, then file all the receipts associated with the job after I've inputted them into my book-keeping software?  Maybe I've broken a tool that needs sorting out, I've got a machine to service, or there's some of my kit needs cleaning after working on the job for you.  I might need to stop by a supplier to replenish some consumables I've used up on your job.

Very often the job isn't finished the moment someone drives away from your house.

To look at it the other way around, if I got home late that day because the last bit of the job was a real pain and it took a bit longer than I thought, would you be expecting me to bill you extra?

[Newbie to this]

7 hours ago, Jim Neal said:

Do you expect me to reduce the labour bill by 90 minutes pro rata?  Because where am I supposed to go during the next 90 minutes to make up a day's earnings?  Also, who's going to pay me for the time it takes to sit at my computer and type up the invoice, then file all the receipts associated with the job after I've inputted them into my book-keeping software?  Maybe I've broken a tool that needs sorting out, I've got a machine to service, or there's some of my kit needs cleaning after working on the job for you.  I might need to stop by a supplier to replenish some consumables I've used up on your job.

Forget this, this is irrelevant.

7 hours ago, Jim Neal said:

To look at it the other way around, if I got home late that day because the last bit of the job was a real pain and it took a bit longer than I thought, would you be expecting me to bill you extra?

This 100% ^^^

[Vince Green]

On 20/08/2021 at 18:53, Wilts#Dave said:

Agree with the majority of your points, as a self employed tradesman myself. 
Personally don’t think a decorators skill set is worth £230 odd a day but that’s obviously opinion/area based only as you wouldn’t get much work where I am charging such prices. Good luck if able to charge it though! 
Spot on with your main point, always amazes me how some people get so jealous at the thought of you potentially earning more/similar money to themselves when they’re in an ‘important’ job and wear a suit to work, not work trousers and hoody 😂

A good tradesman has a wealth of knowledge and in the majority of cases carries out work you’ve no hope of doing yourself to the same standard, especially in a similar time frame. This is worth a considerable amount of money these days, whether people like it or not!  

Unlike most trades decorators can directly add value to a property so are always in demand by landlords and estate agents. Tatty house? get the decorators in, spend £2,500 and add £10,000 to the value of the property.

Thats why they can charge so much, and they do