New regulations on licensing

[Rob85]

Just the game keeper organisation NGO posted a link on Facebook yesterday regarding the new regulation coming into force from November making it a mandatory home office requirement for you to fill in the GP pro forma thing. No longer will there be forces allowed to operate on their own judgement.

Be interesting to see if this migrates across to northern ireland as we already have a procedure whereby the firearms branch themselves can and do reach out to your GP to ask the questions. My current renewal had them asking the doctors for info and cost the the princely sum of nowt.

As this new rule is coming Into force in every jurisdiction on the mainland surely the GPS should have to come to some agreement to a one size fits all fee?

 

Edit: here's the link

https://www.facebook.com/314329015313678/posts/4701446353268567/

Edited October 27, 2021 by Rob85
Adding link

[andrew f]

How would your gp know your mental health if you don't see the knobber to begin with?🤣😂

[DUNKS]

42 minutes ago, andrew f said:

How would your gp know your mental health if you don't see the knobber to begin with?🤣😂

Good point!

[Rob85]

17 minutes ago, DUNKS said:

Good point!

You declare on the application form if you have been treated in the last 5 years for depression or mental illnesses or any other condition that may affect your suitability to use a firearm. You have to give your GP name and the surgery and also tick to say they have permission to approach them for any relevant medical information relating to your application....usually they write a letter or email.

If you say you haven't and they happen to check and there's something to say on your notes that you have had treatment for an issue that could affect your suitability then you are in a spot of bother.

A friend who works in the branch informed me that if you tell them on one application about say depression then on a future application outside of the 5 year time frame that you haven't been treated for anything in the last 5 years they will probably still check with your GP just to cover themselves.

[mossy835]

is this all to do with the plymouth shooting,

[CharlieT]

2 hours ago, Rob85 said:

You declare on the application form if you have been treated in the last 5 years for depression or mental illnesses or any other condition that may affect your suitability to use a firearm. You have to give your GP name and the surgery and also tick to say they have permission to approach them for any relevant medical information relating to your application....usually they write a letter or email.

If you say you haven't and they happen to check and there's something to say on your notes that you have had treatment for an issue that could affect your suitability then you are in a spot of bother.

A friend who works in the branch informed me that if you tell them on one application about say depression then on a future application outside of the 5 year time frame that you haven't been treated for anything in the last 5 years they will probably still check with your GP just to cover themselves.

Not quite correct.

Applicants will be required to submit the separate "medical pro forma", duly completed by a doctor, with their application.

3 minutes ago, mossy835 said:

is this all to do with the plymouth shooting,

No. It's been in the pipeline for some long while.

[mossy835]

will the forms be on line, to print off.

[CharlieT]

17 minutes ago, mossy835 said:

will the forms be on line, to print off.

The new Statutory Guidance indicates that it will be the police who contact the applicants GP requesting medical info.

 

Medical  information required by  the  police    

2.26  When  a  person  applies  for a  firearm  or shotgun  certificate  the  police  will  ask the  applicant’s GP  to:  

(i) (ii) confirm  whether or not  the  applicant  is or  has  been  treated  for any relevant  medical condition  which  could  affect  their  ability  to  possess a  firearm  safely;  and   place  a  firearm  reminder code  on  the  applicant’s patient  record  and confirm  that  they  have  done  so.

2.27  GPs should  not  be  asked  to  give  general access to  an  applicant’s  medical record.  Nor should  they  be  asked  to  either  endorse  or  oppose  applications. Responsibility  for the  decision  about  whether  a  person  is suitable  to  be granted  a  certificate  lies with  the  police,  not  the  GP. Relevant  medical  conditions

2.28  Relevant  medical conditions include:  

(i) (ii) (iii) (iv) (v) (vi) (vii) (viii) (ix) Acute  Stress  Reaction  or an  acute  reaction  to  the  stress  caused  by  a trauma;   suicidal thoughts  or  self-harm; depression  or  anxiety; dementia; mania,  bipolar disorder  or a  psychotic illness;   a  personality  disorder; a  neurological condition:  for  example,  Multiple  Sclerosis,  Parkinson’s or Huntington’s diseases,  or  epilepsy; alcohol  or drug  abuse;  and any  other  mental  or physical condition  which  may  affect  the  safe possession  of  firearms  or shotguns.  

 Payment  of a  fee

2.29  In  any  case  where the  GP  requests  that  a  fee  be  paid  in  advance  of responding  to  the  police  request  for information,  this is a  matter  between  the applicant  and  his or her GP.  It  is  not  an  issue  that  the  police  should  become involved  in.  

If the  GP  does  not provide  the  information requested the  certificate should not  be  issued 

 If the  GP  declines  to  engage  with the  police

2.30  The  provision  of  relevant  medical information  from  an  applicant’s GP  is necessary  in  order to  determine  the  level of  risk to  public safety  arising  from the  grant  of  a  certificate.  The  certificate  should  not,  therefore,  be  granted  or renewed  if  this information  is not  provided.  The  police  should  follow  the procedure set  out  below.

2.31  Following  the  initial approach  to  the  applicant’s GP,  if  the  police  receive  no response  within  21  days  and  it  is not  known  why  this is the  case,  the  police should  consider sending  a  reminder to  the  GP.  

2.32  If  a  reminder is sent  and  the  GP  still fails to  engage,  the  police  should  inform the  applicant: a)  that  this is  the  case;   b)  that  the  application  cannot  be  progressed  in  the  absence  of  a response  from  the  GP;  and   c)  that  the  application  will  therefore  be  put  ‘on  hold’ pending  receipt  of the  required  information  from  the  GP.

2.33  The  application  can  be  held  for a  period  not  exceeding  six  months,  after which  the  applicant  should  be  informed  that  it  has lapsed. II.  If the  GP  has  a  conscientious  objection to firearms  

2.34  If  the  GP  indicates to  the  police  that  he  or she  is unwilling  to  respond because  they  have  a  conscientious  objection  to  the  possession  of  firearms, the  applicant  should  be  encouraged  to  pass  the  request  to  another GP  in  the same  practice,  or in  another  practice  where  practical,  who  may  be  willing  to respond  to  the  request.  In  the  unlikely  event  that  no  GP  in  the  practice  or local area  is  prepared  to  respond,  the  applicant  may  need  to  consider moving  to  a  different  GP  practice.  If  they  do  not  wish  to  change  their  GP practice,  the  applicant  should  discuss  with  the  police  whether it would  be acceptable  to  obtain  a  copy  of  their  medical information  from  the  GP  practice for consideration  by  the  force  medical officer  or by  a  private  GP. III. If the  GP  indicates  that there  are  medical  issues  

2.35  Where  the  GP  indicates that  there are  relevant  medical issues  but  does not provide  further  details,  the  police  should  ask the  applicant  to  contact  their  GP to  obtain  a  report about  these  medical issues.  If  the  GP  requires a  fee  to  be paid  for providing  such  a  report, this will be  payable  by  the  applicant.  If, following  receipt  of  the  above  report, the  police  have  concerns  about  any  of the  medical information  given  or wish  to  obtain  a  more  detailed  report, they may  request  this  from the  GP  or, if  appropriate,  a  relevant  specialist.  The police  should  meet  any  costs  associated  with  the  provision  of  this additional report.

2.36  If  the  applicant  has  declared  a  relevant  medical condition  on  the  application form  the  police  may  ask the  applicant  to  obtain  and  pay,  if  required,  for a medical report  to  assist  with  their  consideration  of  medical suitability.  If  a further  medical report is required,  the  police  will  pay  for this. The  role  of Local  Medical  Committees

2.37  Good  working  relationships  between  the  police  and  local  GPs will help  to ensure  effective  information  sharing  arrangements  in  the  best  interests  of  the efficacy  of  the  local  firearms  licensing  arrangements.

2.38  Engagement  with  the  Local Medical Committee  can  help  to  secure  a consistent  set  of  arrangements  in  place  across a  local  area  within  the  context of  the  framework set  out  above.  For example,  if  all  parties  are in  agreement to  developments  or innovations that  help  to  speed  up  application  processes without  compromising  public safety,  this is likely  to  be  acceptable,  provided that  any  variations  from  the  processes  described  in  this guidance  are delivered  on  a  voluntary  basis, and  that  the  procedures  described  here are adhered  to  if  any  concerns  are  expressed  by  the  applicant. 

[mossy835]

thank you for that Charlie T

[andrew f]

30 minutes ago, CharlieT said:

The new Statutory Guidance indicates that it will be the police who contact the applicants GP requesting medical info.

 

Medical  information required by  the  police    

2.26  When  a  person  applies  for a  firearm  or shotgun  certificate  the  police  will  ask the  applicant’s GP  to:  

(i) (ii) confirm  whether or not  the  applicant  is or  has  been  treated  for any relevant  medical condition  which  could  affect  their  ability  to  possess a  firearm  safely;  and   place  a  firearm  reminder code  on  the  applicant’s patient  record  and confirm  that  they  have  done  so.

2.27  GPs should  not  be  asked  to  give  general access to  an  applicant’s  medical record.  Nor should  they  be  asked  to  either  endorse  or  oppose  applications. Responsibility  for the  decision  about  whether  a  person  is suitable  to  be granted  a  certificate  lies with  the  police,  not  the  GP. Relevant  medical  conditions

2.28  Relevant  medical conditions include:  

(i) (ii) (iii) (iv) (v) (vi) (vii) (viii) (ix) Acute  Stress  Reaction  or an  acute  reaction  to  the  stress  caused  by  a trauma;   suicidal thoughts  or  self-harm; depression  or  anxiety; dementia; mania,  bipolar disorder  or a  psychotic illness;   a  personality  disorder; a  neurological condition:  for  example,  Multiple  Sclerosis,  Parkinson’s or Huntington’s diseases,  or  epilepsy; alcohol  or drug  abuse;  and any  other  mental  or physical condition  which  may  affect  the  safe possession  of  firearms  or shotguns.  

 Payment  of a  fee

2.29  In  any  case  where the  GP  requests  that  a  fee  be  paid  in  advance  of responding  to  the  police  request  for information,  this is a  matter  between  the applicant  and  his or her GP.  It  is  not  an  issue  that  the  police  should  become involved  in.  

If the  GP  does  not provide  the  information requested the  certificate should not  be  issued 

 If the  GP  declines  to  engage  with the  police

2.30  The  provision  of  relevant  medical information  from  an  applicant’s GP  is necessary  in  order to  determine  the  level of  risk to  public safety  arising  from the  grant  of  a  certificate.  The  certificate  should  not,  therefore,  be  granted  or renewed  if  this information  is not  provided.  The  police  should  follow  the procedure set  out  below.

2.31  Following  the  initial approach  to  the  applicant’s GP,  if  the  police  receive  no response  within  21  days  and  it  is not  known  why  this is the  case,  the  police should  consider sending  a  reminder to  the  GP.  

2.32  If  a  reminder is sent  and  the  GP  still fails to  engage,  the  police  should  inform the  applicant: a)  that  this is  the  case;   b)  that  the  application  cannot  be  progressed  in  the  absence  of  a response  from  the  GP;  and   c)  that  the  application  will  therefore  be  put  ‘on  hold’ pending  receipt  of the  required  information  from  the  GP.

2.33  The  application  can  be  held  for a  period  not  exceeding  six  months,  after which  the  applicant  should  be  informed  that  it  has lapsed. II.  If the  GP  has  a  conscientious  objection to firearms  

2.34  If  the  GP  indicates to  the  police  that  he  or she  is unwilling  to  respond because  they  have  a  conscientious  objection  to  the  possession  of  firearms, the  applicant  should  be  encouraged  to  pass  the  request  to  another GP  in  the same  practice,  or in  another  practice  where  practical,  who  may  be  willing  to respond  to  the  request.  In  the  unlikely  event  that  no  GP  in  the  practice  or local area  is  prepared  to  respond,  the  applicant  may  need  to  consider moving  to  a  different  GP  practice.  If  they  do  not  wish  to  change  their  GP practice,  the  applicant  should  discuss  with  the  police  whether it would  be acceptable  to  obtain  a  copy  of  their  medical information  from  the  GP  practice for consideration  by  the  force  medical officer  or by  a  private  GP. III. If the  GP  indicates  that there  are  medical  issues  

2.35  Where  the  GP  indicates that  there are  relevant  medical issues  but  does not provide  further  details,  the  police  should  ask the  applicant  to  contact  their  GP to  obtain  a  report about  these  medical issues.  If  the  GP  requires a  fee  to  be paid  for providing  such  a  report, this will be  payable  by  the  applicant.  If, following  receipt  of  the  above  report, the  police  have  concerns  about  any  of the  medical information  given  or wish  to  obtain  a  more  detailed  report, they may  request  this  from the  GP  or, if  appropriate,  a  relevant  specialist.  The police  should  meet  any  costs  associated  with  the  provision  of  this additional report.

2.36  If  the  applicant  has  declared  a  relevant  medical condition  on  the  application form  the  police  may  ask the  applicant  to  obtain  and  pay,  if  required,  for a medical report  to  assist  with  their  consideration  of  medical suitability.  If  a further  medical report is required,  the  police  will  pay  for this. The  role  of Local  Medical  Committees

2.37  Good  working  relationships  between  the  police  and  local  GPs will help  to ensure  effective  information  sharing  arrangements  in  the  best  interests  of  the efficacy  of  the  local  firearms  licensing  arrangements.

2.38  Engagement  with  the  Local Medical Committee  can  help  to  secure  a consistent  set  of  arrangements  in  place  across a  local  area  within  the  context of  the  framework set  out  above.  For example,  if  all  parties  are in  agreement to  developments  or innovations that  help  to  speed  up  application  processes without  compromising  public safety,  this is likely  to  be  acceptable,  provided that  any  variations  from  the  processes  described  in  this guidance  are delivered  on  a  voluntary  basis, and  that  the  procedures  described  here are adhered  to  if  any  concerns  are  expressed  by  the  applicant. 

So if I refuse to pay the fee they will wait 21 days and issue my license like before ?

[Newbie to this]

6 minutes ago, andrew f said:

So if I refuse to pay the fee they will wait 21 days and issue my license like before ?

No

[andrew f]

7 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

No

Great so I'm expected to pay outrageous fees for them to scribble a signature 😂🤣

[rbrowning2]

What a load of rubbish the home office have written they obviously do not live in the real world.

2.33 put on hold for six months, what if that is a renewal will you be in illegal possession of firearms?

2.34 change GP practice, GPs work on postcode catchment areas so quite possibly you will not be able to change GP practice even if their is another GP practice in your area. Then even if you could change GP like a friend tried to do, the new practice refused to complete the medical report for six months until they get to know you.

Clearly at this time the applicant must contact their GP to get the report, will be interesting to see what happens in November, but this is NOT primary legislation just statutory guidance so expect the chief Constables to continue to cherry pick the guidance.

And of course the risk that any GP who does not engage in the process will not add a marker that you own firearms so no long term benefit, just a one if five year MOT. 

Clearly the mess continues and will do so until it is part of a GP contract to engage in the process, but don’t hold your breath waiting for that to happen.

 

Edited October 27, 2021 by rbrowning2

[Scully]

Is anyone aware of how this will ( or would have ) prevent any of the shootings we’ve had in the UK? 

[rbrowning2]

40 minutes ago, Scully said:

Is anyone aware of how this will ( or would have ) prevent any of the shootings we’ve had in the UK? 

My understanding is that tragically in living memory every mass shooting in the U.K. has had a contributory factor of a failure within the firearms licensing process by the police, but no Home Secretary is ever going to come out and say so publicly, career suicide to do so.

[rbrowning2]

I will be astonished if on the first of November police forces that currently require the GP report to be submitted together with the application form and fee stop doing so and then follow the HO statutory guidance.

If they don’t will that finally push the door abjure for a judicial review or is the fact that it continues to be guidance and not primary legislation mean it is status quo?

we will soon know the answer.

Edited October 27, 2021 by rbrowning2

[Rob85]

5 hours ago, CharlieT said:

Not quite correct.

Applicants will be required to submit the separate "medical pro forma", duly completed by a doctor, with their application.

No. It's been in the pipeline for some long while.

Apologies I wasn't clear you may have got the wrong end of the stick, I was giving information on how the system works in Northern ireland as I am hoping this new way of things in the mainland isn't going to migrate over here when I think how we do it here is a better way....mainly because it doest add extra cost to our licensing process like the pro forma in England does.

[Scully]

10 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

I will be astonished if on the first of November police forces that currently require the GP report to be submitted together with the application form and fee stop doing so and then follow the HO statutory guidance.

If they don’t will that finally push the door abjure for a judicial review or is the fact that it continues to be guidance and not primary legislation mean it is status quo?

we will soon know the answer.

I may find out very soon. My tickets expire at the end of October. I had my visit from  the FEO about three weeks ago now and he didn’t mention it, but I’ll be issued a S7 anytime soon.
It will be interesting to find out if I’m required to get a GP’s letter, from someone I’ve met once in the four years I’ve been in this catchment area, for a urine infection. 🙂

 

[George88]

I'd just like to add, my certificate that was granted a month ago, I put on my application that I am being medically treated for low level depression, and have been for 2 years. Spoke to my GP who wrote a supportive letter, had my interview with the FEO where all she said on the matter was "your GP has written a very supportive letter . . etc." and just before leaving stated "I see no reason why this wont get granted, so expect your license within 14 day". It was a few days late but if anyone on this Forum is fearful that if you have ever had, or are currently suffering depression it is NOT an instant denial, so I advise talking to your GP about wanting to get into sporting Clays and it seems to make the world of difference.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

10 minutes ago, George88 said:

I'd just like to add, my certificate that was granted a month ago, I put on my application that I am being medically treated for low level depression, and have been for 2 years. Spoke to my GP who wrote a supportive letter, had my interview with the FEO where all she said on the matter was "your GP has written a very supportive letter . . etc." and just before leaving stated "I see no reason why this wont get granted, so expect your license within 14 day". It was a few days late but if anyone on this Forum is fearful that if you have ever had, or are currently suffering depression it is NOT an instant denial, so I advise talking to your GP about wanting to get into sporting Clays and it seems to make the world of difference.

Good to see honesty was the best policy!

Good luck.

[Gudgeon]

I've seen my FEO more times than my Doctor!! Good job I've got 4 1/2 years until my next renewal, hope they sort something a bit before then, but expect we'll still be having the same debates.

[Centrepin]

7 minutes ago, Gudgeon said:

I've seen my FEO more times than my Doctor!! Good job I've got 4 1/2 years until my next renewal, hope they sort something a bit before then, but expect we'll still be having the same debates.

Probably worse in 4 1/2 years, you're doomed 😁

[Accuspell]

On 28/10/2021 at 08:38, George88 said:

I'd just like to add, my certificate that was granted a month ago, I put on my application that I am being medically treated for low level depression, and have been for 2 years. Spoke to my GP who wrote a supportive letter, had my interview with the FEO where all she said on the matter was "your GP has written a very supportive letter . . etc." and just before leaving stated "I see no reason why this wont get granted, so expect your license within 14 day". It was a few days late but if anyone on this Forum is fearful that if you have ever had, or are currently suffering depression it is NOT an instant denial, so I advise talking to your GP about wanting to get into sporting Clays and it seems to make the world of difference.

That is heartening, I had a major traffic collision a few years ago, got taken out on the motorway by a guy driving and on his phone, it wasn't the side swipe that did for me, as I parted company with the bike a big 4x4 came up lane 3 at high speed (80+) and went over me. It took 3 years to recover from it as best I have. Naturally I had severe reservations about riding motorways and was being very selective about when I ventured out and the routes I took.... I had cognitive behavioural therapy to help me get over the avoidance behaviour. I have been concerned that it might be used as a mental state and affect the decision on my renewal. Hopefully from what you have said it won't. I didn't have any medication, just the riding course and coaching through it. Fingers crossed, they have had my Dr report/medial records for 3 weeks, I am expecting the FEO to call anytime soon.