Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[Stonepark]

Just now, Dave-G said:

That may well be the case but it takes Russian weaponised gas delivery down and ensures Germany doesn't cave in and leave NATO to get it, remember they were slow to get on side with defence supplies.

I remember the German population and government are being forced into supporting a war against their own interests.

Ukraine Government is not on the side of the righteous and most Germans understand that and they are having their industry, economy and lives destroyed so that certain politicians can virtue signal supporting Nazi's.

It's not going down well.... AFD and other political parties who don't support Ukraine at the next election are going to have a groundswell of support.

[Mice!]

24 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Corrr you Putin apologists really do want to bend over backwards to rationalize and forgive an invasion and mass murder.

As for the pipeline being blown up - yes, all very interesting but rather after the event and distracting from the war and invasion bit.

Yet again,  no one is rationalising Putins actions, but I'm pretty sure if Putin was responsible for the pipeline being blown up it would be front page news, it's surprising Russia isn't being blamed even without evidence actually. 

Denying a country a gas supply seems like a pretty big deal and could well have been done to stop Germany from caving and buying from Russia again. 

But I doubt we'll ever know the truth.

1 hour ago, treetree said:

So the unlawful removal of Yanukovych played no part in this?

Nobody is interested in anything that happened before the tanks rolled in.

[mchughcb]

There goes the pipe. The swedes have decided to withdraw from the joint investigation sighting national security concerns.

 

55 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Corrr you Putin apologists really do want to bend over backwards to rationalize and forgive an invasion and mass murder.

As for the pipeline being blown up - yes, all very interesting but rather after the event and distracting from the war and invasion bit.

Indeed, none of the excuses or "look over there what about that" changes the whole unnecessary invasion and mass murder of civilians bit.

And as for blaming the USA, that's brilliant. No mention of Putin of course because it's all the fault of the US. That's crackers. If Russia wanted to fair better on the world stage and sustain less sanctions, well they could have tried for fewer invasions. But no, of course, it's all the Yanks fault 🙂

 

 

 

How much is the UK government covering your heating bills? Should the bill be sent to the US taxpayer?

So Zelensky is now asking Israel for their Iron Shield defence. 

[ditchman]

just looking at the video of the damage.........i notice the flanges of the fracture are bent outwards ...does this indicate that the explosion comes from within ?

[oowee]

Further investigations into the ruptures of the Nord Stream 1 and 2 pipelines in Denmark’s exclusive economic zone will be handled jointly by Copenhagen Police and Denmark’s Security and Intelligence Service.

 

Sweden had rejected the proposal for a Joint Investigation Team (JIT) from judicial co-operation agency Eurojust because a such a joint investigation would include legal agreements under which Sweden would have to share information from its own investigation that it deemed confidential.

"This is because there is information in our investigation that is subject to confidentiality directly linked to national security," Ljungqvist told Reuters.

Edited October 18, 2022 by oowee

[Mungler]

What I have learnt from this thread is that if the Kremlin shills won't accept the Western security services report on the Salisbury poisonings / murders and the naming of Mishkin and Chepiga (Putin's favorite assassins who have in the interim been very busy elsewhere) then there is no chance of their accepting any Russian blame for the pipe explosion regardless of the weight of evidence and so any discussion on the topic is pointless. Further, the destruction of a pipeline remains irrelevant to Putin's prior invasion of and war with Ukraine and the continuing murder of Ukrainian civilians.

 

[welsh1]

10 minutes ago, Mungler said:

What I have learnt from this thread is that if the Kremlin shills won't accept the Western security services report on the Salisbury poisonings / murders and the naming of Mishkin and Chepiga (Putin's favorite assassins who have in the interim been very busy elsewhere) then there is no chance of their accepting any Russian blame for the pipe explosion regardless of the weight of evidence and so any discussion on the topic is pointless. Further, the destruction of a pipeline remains irrelevant to Putin's prior invasion of and war with Ukraine and the continuing murder of Ukrainian civilians.

 

This☝️

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, mchughcb said:

1. How much is the UK government covering your heating bills? Should the bill be sent to the US taxpayer?

2. So Zelensky is now asking Israel for their Iron Shield defence. 

1. That's a first world problem. No matter how bad I think my gas bill will be this winter, at least I won't be waking up to find a Russian tank in my living room and my family raped and murdered by Putin's army of trolls.

2. Well, we know how the Israelis love the Iranians. If Russia wants to send hoards of killers drones into civilian areas then Ukraine seeking defensive measures and assistance from others has to be expected surely.

 

[Rewulf]

3 hours ago, treetree said:

And with this one sentence you have summed up a large part of the problem. It was decided that Russia made a convenient permanent bogey-man, all manner of ills could be handily blamed on them (election interference,  collusion with Presidents, American Hawks able to talk up the threat to keep the profits rolling in for the Military Industrial Conplex) and that they should be treated  like a pariah state, vilified, talked down.

They were shown no respect by the USA, and have been prodded relentlessly.

This in no way aims to justify the war in Ukraine. We just need to bear in mind the events before they went into Ukraine

You cant say that , that means Russia might not be responsible for everything that goes wrong in the world 

Earthquakes, famine ,the err, climate 'emergency' , every war for the past 1000 years , covid , and worst of all, AIDS , all Russia.
Read it on MSM , so it must be true.

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, Mice! said:

it's surprising Russia isn't being blamed even without evidence actually. 

It was , as soon as it happened, before any evidence had been collected, a very premature 'It was Russia !'

The fact that now , WITH evidence, they arent blaming Russia anymore , but wont point any fingers at anyone else, should tell you everything you need to know.

29 minutes ago, Mungler said:

What I have learnt from this thread

What Ive learnt from this thread , is that you must be after some kind of 'Defender of Ukraine' award , the Order of Zelensky or something ?
You do realise that it wont be like Vlods, that comes with millions of dollars in secret off shore accounts ?

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2021/oct/03/revealed-anti-oligarch-ukrainian-president-offshore-connections-volodymyr-zelenskiy

[welsh1]

So nothings changed then, russia is still in a country it invaded without provocation and is still killing innocent men women and children.

[Stonepark]

10 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

So nothings changed then, russia is still in a country it invaded without provocation and is still killing innocent men women and children.

Yep nothing has changed, Ukraine is still in a country (formerly Dombass and now Russian Federation) it invaded without provocation and is still killing innocent men women and children.

 

[welsh1]

12 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

Yep nothing has changed, Ukraine is still in a country (formerly Dombass and now Russian Federation) it invaded without provocation and is still killing innocent men women and children.

 

Oh dear, just because russia wants to label part of ukraine as russian that doesn't make it so, and it doesn't allow russia to invade ukraine and kill and maim men women and children 

Russia is illegally in Ukraine commiting atrocities.

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

It was , as soon as it happened, before any evidence had been collected, a very premature 'It was Russia !'

The fact that now , WITH evidence, they arent blaming Russia anymore , but wont point any fingers at anyone else, should tell you everything you need to know.

What Ive learnt from this thread , is that you must be after some kind of 'Defender of Ukraine' award , the Order of Zelensky or something ?
You do realise that it wont be like Vlods, that comes with millions of dollars in secret off shore accounts ?

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2021/oct/03/revealed-anti-oligarch-ukrainian-president-offshore-connections-volodymyr-zelenskiy

 

1. I'd rather be labelled a defender of Ukraine than a brainwashed Putin shill

2. the point I was making about the pipeline is that:

(a). it doesn't matter in the scheme of the invasion, war and needless Russian slaughter of civilians; and,

(b). if the Putin shills refuse to accept any Putin culpability for anything ever (as they have steadfastly done on this thread and others) then lets jump to the end where they refuse to accept even the possibility it was Russia and so we all might as well agree that it was the lizard people, NATO, the US, Israel, Nazis or whatever. As per 2(a) it's not moving my needle - invading neighbouring Ukraine and murdering Ukrainian civilians is a more pressing concern.

 

 

[Rewulf]

Just now, Mungler said:

1. I'd rather be labelled a defender of Ukraine than a brainwashed Putin shill

So you would rather be a brainwashed Zelensky shill ? Cool, but youre still not getting millions in an off shore account 

 

2 minutes ago, Mungler said:

2. the point I was making about the pipeline is that:

(a). it doesn't matter in the scheme of the invasion, war and needless Russian slaughter of civilians; and,

No , in YOUR opinion it doesnt matter, but I suppose if Russia blows up the new Baltic pipeline , then that wont matter either ? No didnt think so.

If the proxies are entitled to destroy Russian infrastructure at will , why cant Russia retaliate, and where does that leave gas supplies to the EU ?  * Laughs in American *
This rather annoying man explains the situation 

  (No doubt hes a Russian shill too ?)

 

8 minutes ago, Mungler said:

(b). if the Putin shills refuse to accept any Putin culpability for anything ever (as they have steadfastly done on this thread and others) then lets jump to the end where they refuse to accept even the possibility it was Russia and so we all might as well agree that it was the lizard people, NATO, the US, Israel, Nazis or whatever. As per 2(a) it's not moving my needle - invading neighbouring Ukraine and murdering Ukrainian civilians is a more pressing concern.

Sounds like a load of that whataboutery stuff to me , with an added dollop of your favourite lizard sauce 

[Mice!]

40 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

Russia is illegally in Ukraine commiting atrocities

I've no idea on the legality,  but yes Russia is in the Ukraine committing atrocities. 

42 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

Oh dear, just because russia wants to label part of ukraine as russian that doesn't make it so

So it was OK for the Ukrainians to be dropping bombs( committing atrocities) on other Ukrainians? the last time this happened in Europe was the former Yugoslavia wasn't it, ethnic cleansing and Nato or the UN had to go in, a mate of mine went and came back very messed up with what he saw.

Non of those defending the Ukraine and blaming Russia for everything on this thread seem capable of even acknowledging that this was going on, unfortunately the Ukrainian government are far from blameless in all of this.

[welsh1]

4 minutes ago, Mice! said:

I've no idea on the legality,  but yes Russia is in the Ukraine committing atrocities. 

So it was OK for the Ukrainians to be dropping bombs( committing atrocities) on other Ukrainians? the last time this happened in Europe was the former Yugoslavia wasn't it, ethnic cleansing and Nato or the UN had to go in, a mate of mine went and came back very messed up with what he saw.

Non of those defending the Ukraine and blaming Russia for everything on this thread seem capable of even acknowledging that this was going on, unfortunately the Ukrainian government are far from blameless in all of this.

So does anything you said give russia the right to illegally invade ukraine and start killing it's people?

She didn't want russia to bomb her town

[Rewulf]

7 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

She didn't want russia to bomb her town

Im sure theres plenty of Ukrainians who didnt want Ukraine to bomb their towns either.

The good bit is , it doesnt matter if it was Russia that killed the civilians, or Ukraine, because you do realise that whoever was responsible , it was still the Russians fault ?
Thats the kind of twisted logic that seems to be predominant in this war, because of the western ideal of Russia being some land of evil doers, long cultivated through film and media, there is no question of Ukraine doing anything wrong, even when caught red handed doing it , its still all Russias fault.

Like wise , if a western actor like the UK or US does something similar (whataboutery alert!) like in Iraq or Afghan, then it gets switched round to the invaded peasants of those countries , and its THEIR fault it happened 

Some people still dont seem to get the subtle manipulations that have been wrought on our psyche.
We are mostly mushrooms , kept in the dark about whats really going on , and fed on the proverbial doo doo, feeling thankful to our masters who will eventually eat us 

[Mice!]

45 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

So does anything you said give russia the right to illegally invade ukraine and start killing it's people?

She didn't want russia to bomb her town

Obviously not, that's never been in doubt, but what if that picture was taken back in 2016 and it was done by the Ukrainians themselves,  you still can't even mention it.

As an aside,  when is an invasion ever legal?

[welsh1]

33 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Im sure theres plenty of Ukrainians who didnt want Ukraine to bomb their towns either.

The good bit is , it doesnt matter if it was Russia that killed the civilians, or Ukraine, because you do realise that whoever was responsible , it was still the Russians fault ?
Thats the kind of twisted logic that seems to be predominant in this war, because of the western ideal of Russia being some land of evil doers, long cultivated through film and media, there is no question of Ukraine doing anything wrong, even when caught red handed doing it , its still all Russias fault.

Like wise , if a western actor like the UK or US does something similar (whataboutery alert!) like in Iraq or Afghan, then it gets switched round to the invaded peasants of those countries , and its THEIR fault it happened 

Some people still dont seem to get the subtle manipulations that have been wrought on our psyche.
We are mostly mushrooms , kept in the dark about whats really going on , and fed on the proverbial doo doo, feeling thankful to our masters who will eventually eat us 

So if russia had not invaded ukraine, would this woman have been injured by russian bombs falling on her town in ukraine?


This woman was hoping to have a peaceful pregnancy and not get injured by russia dropping bombs on her town in ukraine, now she is terrified for her and her unborn child

 

[welsh1]

6 minutes ago, Mice! said:

Obviously not, that's never been in doubt, but what if that picture was taken back in 2016 and it was done by the Ukrainians themselves,  you still can't even mention it.

As an aside,  when is an invasion ever legal?

Are you saying this picture is not correct? are you saying it's not been taken since russia bombed ukraine after invading them illegally?

[treetree]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

1. I'd rather be labelled a defender of Ukraine than a brainwashed Putin shill

"Defender of Ukraine"! Have a word with yourself!

You are no such thing, you have decided that this war must continue, regardless of the cost, until Ukraine is victorious. What is left of that country, or a generation of fighting age men is beyond your concern. That this could tip the world into a nuclear exchange doesn't seem to matter, nor the economic and social consequences for the rest of the world.

What most of those you refer to as "Kremlin shills" want is a negotiated peace and an end to the loss of life.

Much of this could have been avoided if, in the words of the former US  ambassador to the Soviet Union "Ukraine had been willing to abide by the Minsk agreement, recognize the Donbas as an autonomous entity within Ukraine, avoid Nato military advisors, and pledge not to enter NATO"

[welsh1]

3 minutes ago, treetree said:

"Defender of Ukraine"! Have a word with yourself!

You are no such thing, you have decided that this war must continue, regardless of the cost, until Ukraine is victorious. What is left of that country, or a generation of fighting age men is beyond your concern. That this could tip the world into a nuclear exchange doesn't seem to matter, nor the economic and social consequences for the rest of the world.

What most of those you refer to as "Kremlin shills" want is a negotiated peace and an end to the loss of life.

Much of this could have been avoided if, in the words of the former US  ambassador to the Soviet Union "Ukraine had been willing to abide by the Minsk agreement, recognize the Donbas as an autonomous entity within Ukraine, avoid Nato military advisors, and pledge not to enter NATO"

Ahh the old if only ukraine had complied then russia wouldn't have had to invade and start slaughtering the population of ukraine argument.

[clangerman]

I wonder how many lives could have been saved if people complied with western wishes to save us slaughtering them! 

[Rewulf]

22 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

Ahh the old if only ukraine had complied then russia wouldn't have had to invade and start slaughtering the population of ukraine argument.

Thats right , complied with the Minsk agreements it agreed to , and stopping shelling and slaughtering its own citizens.

Its pretty clear that without any Russian involvement , Ukraine was already divided between east and west , Ukrainian and Russian speaking.
But like Ive said , no one is interested in the voices of people in Donbass.

(Fun fact , when Germany invaded Ukraine in WW2 and took it over in its entirety  , around 250,000 Ukrainians joined the German army, various 'militia' of Ukrainian nationalist sonderkommando , gleefully set about their Jewish neighbours , men women and children , even babies were not spared , slaughtered in the street, or herded into woods and quarries like Babi Yar, stripped naked , beaten and executed.
These werent German soldiers, these were Ukrainians.

Its a testament to that divide between east and west , that for every one who sided with the Germans, five joined the soviet army , and two joined the partisans.
The Ukrainians are obviously not one people , but under leaders like Yanukovic , at least there was peace across the country.
Now you have a civil war , with proxies fighting the cold war again.
Still no sign of any mediators for peace, how strange ?