wymberley Posted July 3, 2022 Report Share Posted July 3, 2022 32 minutes ago, Scully said: "People really need to make their minds up!" Indeed. As the vast majority of us are ballistic laymen in order to do so we need concise qualified facts in order to be able to make an informed decision. 33g of steel at 1200ft/sec sounds like a nice smooth load for any 12 bore. Trouble is, is if that 1200 - expressed in UK units to confuse everybody - is at MV2.5 then said nice smooth load is actually classed as HP. You're quite right, we do (well, not me as like you it'll make no difference to me) have a multitude of choices and whereas the information required to make a choice which suits the individual is out there, it's not all in one place, not easy to find and as we're now realising, too much of it is ambiguous. It's probably fair to say that the introduction of a half decent shooting organisation would play a major role in providing the necessary information required for folk to make any decision that suits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokingdragon Posted July 3, 2022 Report Share Posted July 3, 2022 On 01/07/2022 at 14:49, London Best said: For a real “shooting man” shooting is a way of life. “Shooting men” do not give up shooting. Those people who see shooting as a hobby often give it up. I still need my guns for vermin and I'll probably cut down on the clays to balance the rising costs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted July 4, 2022 Report Share Posted July 4, 2022 11 hours ago, wymberley said: Indeed. As the vast majority of us are ballistic laymen in order to do so we need concise qualified facts in order to be able to make an informed decision. 33g of steel at 1200ft/sec sounds like a nice smooth load for any 12 bore. Trouble is, is if that 1200 - expressed in UK units to confuse everybody - is at MV2.5 then said nice smooth load is actually classed as HP. You're quite right, we do (well, not me as like you it'll make no difference to me) have a multitude of choices and whereas the information required to make a choice which suits the individual is out there, it's not all in one place, not easy to find and as we're now realising, too much of it is ambiguous. It's probably fair to say that the introduction of a half decent shooting organisation would play a major role in providing the necessary information required for folk to make any decision that suits. I’m not sure about the ‘vast majority being ballistic laymen’; no one I know is, and in my experience the vast majority have no interest and just want to go out shooting. Like I said, there are options, one of which is standard steel. From what I’ve read on here, you would think standard steel would be the answer to all those critics of ‘extreme’ birds. 🤷♂️ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerry78 Posted July 4, 2022 Report Share Posted July 4, 2022 1 hour ago, Scully said: I’m not sure about the ‘vast majority being ballistic laymen’; no one I know is, and in my experience the vast majority have no interest and just want to go out shooting. Like I said, there are options, one of which is standard steel. From what I’ve read on here, you would think standard steel would be the answer to all those critics of ‘extreme’ birds. 🤷♂️ Scully I’ve been banging my head here against a brick wall on this forum telling people to use standard steel for ducks And geese But this obsession with HP steel will not go away 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted July 4, 2022 Report Share Posted July 4, 2022 2 hours ago, Scully said: I’m not sure about the ‘vast majority being ballistic laymen’; no one I know is, and in my experience the vast majority have no interest and just want to go out shooting. Like I said, there are options, one of which is standard steel. From what I’ve read on here, you would think standard steel would be the answer to all those critics of ‘extreme’ birds. 🤷♂️ It's good to hear that the majority of shooters are knowledgeable regarding non toxic shot which makes one wonder what all the fuss is about 19 minutes ago, Gerry78 said: Scully I’ve been banging my head here against a brick wall on this forum telling people to use standard steel for ducks And geese But this obsession with HP steel will not go away 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️ Back along and although some went larger, for me No 3 was fine with my limited ability together with a half decent pattern. These would have equated to 3.24mm and to give or take now matched steel 4s for size. As we know for steel to match lead for performance there is a need to go up 2 shot sizes. Problem is, to go up anything at all puts you into HP territory. As does a striped 'go faster' version of the same shot size. With the current trend for 'high' will the restricted range of standard steel be satisfactory. I fancy not. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerry78 Posted July 4, 2022 Report Share Posted July 4, 2022 39 minutes ago, wymberley said: It's good to hear that the majority of shooters are knowledgeable regarding non toxic shot which makes one wonder what all the fuss is about Back along and although some went larger, for me No 3 was fine with my limited ability together with a half decent pattern. These would have equated to 3.24mm and to give or take now matched steel 4s for size. As we know for steel to match lead for performance there is a need to go up 2 shot sizes. Problem is, to go up anything at all puts you into HP territory. As does a striped 'go faster' version of the same shot size. With the current trend for 'high' will the restricted range of standard steel be satisfactory. I fancy not. Good luck. Fair point everything you said 👆👆I agree with But I decided to make use of standard steel thru my old S/S I try to get the wildfowl within 25 yards it is hard most times But anything further they fly on I just don’t bother trying to take further shots with standard steel I’m by no means a expert on ballistics If I want to use older guns without HP Then I try to know my limits 👍👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discobob Posted July 4, 2022 Report Share Posted July 4, 2022 On 02/07/2022 at 12:34, Scully said: Got it in one. It’s all politics now, and has been for some time. It won’t ever stop being about politics now; damage limitation and public perception is now the order of the day. You can dress it up anyway you like, but when all is said and done, we kill things for entertainment/recreation, so we’ve got to tow whatever line politics throws at us to survive. The trouble now is that unlike when politics supported the country - Politics now is everything in the country - oh for the want of a small non-intrusive one nowadays.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted July 4, 2022 Report Share Posted July 4, 2022 10 minutes ago, Gerry78 said: Fair point everything you said 👆👆I agree with But I decided to make use of standard steel thru my old S/S I try to get the wildfowl within 25 yards it is hard most times But anything further they fly on I just don’t bother trying to take further shots with standard steel I’m by no means a expert on ballistics If I want to use older guns without HP Then I try to know my limits 👍👍 Cracking post, well said. A rare thing is a contented shooter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerry78 Posted July 4, 2022 Report Share Posted July 4, 2022 1 hour ago, wymberley said: Cracking post, well said. A rare thing is a contented shooter. 👍👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gas seal Posted July 4, 2022 Report Share Posted July 4, 2022 The gun Sean Richo bought and the ones he was looking at would have been proofed with lead shot cartridges. Newer guns would have been proofed with steel cartridges. When lead shot was prohibited for shooting wildfowl 20years ago wildflowers used steel shot in the guns that they used with lead shot some are still using the same gun. Steel shot was and still used for duck and geese from teal to Canada geese . HP steel cartridges depend on the shot size, it’s different for each gauge shotgun, the smaller the gauge the smaller the shot size before it’s classed as HP steel cartridge , the larger shot is more pressure. When choosing steel shot cartridges it’s no different than any other cartridge. Pattern and when the energy fails. As Gerry said know you’re limits ,it the same with any gun and cartridge. Maybe so many guns are for sale because they are not proofed for HP steel . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted July 4, 2022 Report Share Posted July 4, 2022 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Gas seal said: Maybe so many guns are for sale because they are not proofed for HP steel . I have no problem with being pragmatic and sensible over range. I have no interest in blazing away at 50 yard birds, and on our typical farm shoot the vast majority of what we shoot is easily within range for light lead or standard steel. I am very happy to try standard steel, try it on game and pattern it, and see how things go. The problem at the moment (which I suspect will improve with time) is that you can't actually get 2 1/2 inch steel easily - if at all at present. They are in the catalogue, but not in any of the dealers The second (possible) problem may be convincing landlords of the 'animal compatibility' of a bio degradable wad. IF these are seen lying about on grazing ground ......... it may be problematic - both to steel proofed guns and non steel proofed. When I ran a shoot, one landlord was very clear that IF he found plastic wads, cases etc, then no more shooting on his ground. Cases are easy to pick up. Wads are not. Round here most farmers will not tolerate plastic wads. I don't know whether these new wads (if ingested by an animal) will break down rapidly with no risk to the animal. I have read that they break down over a period - but that won't appease a farmer who sees them in fields with stock in. Edited July 4, 2022 by JohnfromUK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted July 4, 2022 Report Share Posted July 4, 2022 40 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said: I have no problem with being pragmatic and sensible over range. I have no interest in blazing away at 50 yard birds, and on our typical farm shoot the vast majority of what we shoot is easily within range for light lead or standard steel. I am very happy to try standard steel, try it on game and pattern it, and see how things go. The problem at the moment (which I suspect will improve with time) is that you can't actually get 2 1/2 inch steel easily - if at all at present. They are in the catalogue, but not in any of the dealers The second (possible) problem may be convincing landlords of the 'animal compatibility' of a bio degradable wad. IF these are seen lying about on grazing ground ......... it may be problematic - both to steel proofed guns and non steel proofed. When I ran a shoot, one landlord was very clear that IF he found plastic wads, cases etc, then no more shooting on his ground. Cases are easy to pick up. Wads are not. Round here most farmers will not tolerate plastic wads. I don't know whether these new wads (if ingested by an animal) will break down rapidly with no risk to the animal. I have read that they break down over a period - but that won't appease a farmer who sees them in fields with stock in. I know that my eldest son was stopped from using Bio-Ammo cartridges with their polymer based wads at a clay shoot up north as the owners didn't know what they were! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted July 4, 2022 Report Share Posted July 4, 2022 3 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said: as the owners didn't know what they were! and that is exactly the thought I was having. There have been a few cases around here of animals lost to various 'litter', be it dog poo bags, Chinese lanterns, etc. Not as far as I know any cartridges or wads - certainly that I have heard of locally. Some may even be just 'hear say', but word has got round and anything see lying around on grazing ground is 'taboo'. When I ran a shoot (20+ years ago) one farmer was very clear that if he found 'bits of plastic', empty cases etc - we could forget about the shooting. We had to be very strict about wads even down to checking cartridges as many of the visiting and guest guns simply didn't know what they had(!), and we had someone on the shoot's 'books' collecting any empties dropped behind and not picked by the gun concerned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gas seal Posted July 4, 2022 Report Share Posted July 4, 2022 Hi John if you have any concerns with bio wads you could try cartridges with cardboard wads. I understand your problem getting two and a half inch cartridges, they are out there it’s the same with a lot of things ,hold ups. If a clay pigeon shoot owner this far north didn’t know what a bio wad was they would just charge extra for the clays. I use Eley twenty gauge steel with bio wads . We have a good cartridge dealer on Merseyside he has a good stock of cartridges, if he doesn’t have what you need he will order them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted July 4, 2022 Report Share Posted July 4, 2022 1 minute ago, Gas seal said: Hi John if you have any concerns with bio wads you could try cartridges with cardboard wads. At present, I have sufficient 'old' cartridges to see me out at least this coming season (and if bird supply issues remain, longer as both small shoots I visit are on reduced birds this season) and I'm sure that the 2 1/2" steel supply issue will resolve - though I do in fact have 2 3/4" (AyA) as well. I just respond that the issue for me (and therefore probably others) is not a reluctance to try steel, but the supply of suitable ammunition issue. In fact, personally I am all OK to go, but from where I stand, there is a way to go yet both in availability and convincing (the farmers and landowners) which is what may be reflecting on the gun prices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted July 4, 2022 Report Share Posted July 4, 2022 7 hours ago, wymberley said: It's good to hear that the majority of shooters are knowledgeable regarding non toxic shot which makes one wonder what all the fuss is about Back along and although some went larger, for me No 3 was fine with my limited ability together with a half decent pattern. These would have equated to 3.24mm and to give or take now matched steel 4s for size. As we know for steel to match lead for performance there is a need to go up 2 shot sizes. Problem is, to go up anything at all puts you into HP territory. As does a striped 'go faster' version of the same shot size. With the current trend for 'high' will the restricted range of standard steel be satisfactory. I fancy not. Good luck. I have no idea if the majority have a good knowledge of steel shot or not, I said I doubted if the vast majority were ‘ballistic laymen’. The fact is, you don’t need to be a ballistic layman to enjoy your shooting. Even when I reloaded I didn’t get bogged down in ballistics; there’s simply no need unless you want to, and it certainly won’t make you a better shot. If standard steel isn’t up to the job for those who prefer their birds very high or even extreme, then they can use HP steel. The only problems I perceive are those who want to shoot steel with small bores, or very high birds with thin skinned, short chambered guns. There are options out there if people choose to use them, but it may require them to make changes or compromise. The choices are there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted July 4, 2022 Report Share Posted July 4, 2022 3 hours ago, JohnfromUK said: I have no problem with being pragmatic and sensible over range. I have no interest in blazing away at 50 yard birds, and on our typical farm shoot the vast majority of what we shoot is easily within range for light lead or standard steel. I am very happy to try standard steel, try it on game and pattern it, and see how things go. The problem at the moment (which I suspect will improve with time) is that you can't actually get 2 1/2 inch steel easily - if at all at present. They are in the catalogue, but not in any of the dealers The second (possible) problem may be convincing landlords of the 'animal compatibility' of a bio degradable wad. IF these are seen lying about on grazing ground ......... it may be problematic - both to steel proofed guns and non steel proofed. When I ran a shoot, one landlord was very clear that IF he found plastic wads, cases etc, then no more shooting on his ground. Cases are easy to pick up. Wads are not. Round here most farmers will not tolerate plastic wads. I don't know whether these new wads (if ingested by an animal) will break down rapidly with no risk to the animal. I have read that they break down over a period - but that won't appease a farmer who sees them in fields with stock in. I can understand landowners not wanting their land littered with unsightly wads, degradable or not, but I know many landowners who shoot, none of whom have ever said plastic wads are a problem to grazing stock. One expressed surprise at the number of wads laying about at Westlands when our syndicate had a day out there some years back, but had absolutely no qualms about shooting plastic wads over our syndicate land….we bought a pallet load between us. When I asked if it effected stock he just said no. Ditto for my mate who owns our rough shoot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted July 4, 2022 Report Share Posted July 4, 2022 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Scully said: I can understand landowners not wanting their land littered with unsightly wads, degradable or not, but I know many landowners who shoot, none of whom have ever said plastic wads are a problem to grazing stock. One expressed surprise at the number of wads laying about at Westlands when our syndicate had a day out there some years back, but had absolutely no qualms about shooting plastic wads over our syndicate land….we bought a pallet load between us. When I asked if it effected stock he just said no. Ditto for my mate who owns our rough shoot. And you and your mates may well be right - but it is what the farmers/landowners want that matters. The whole issue of airborne 'debris' and other debris was a big topic around here as a Chinese lantern caused a major fire at a caravan/glamping park (hundreds of £K damage and loads of exploding gas cylinders). Then everyone was coming out with instances of damage from every possible cause. Everyone 'knew' of a case of damage caused by dog poo bags, Chinese lanterns, cartridge cases, helium balloons, wads etc. At the time - when we were told "strictly fibre only" and must pick up all spent cases by the close of the day - it was all easy to do and many people (most 'country folk') used fibre anyway. IF people turned out to shoot without fibre cartridges, they were sold suitable 'at cost'. It all worked pretty well, but things are different now. Edited July 4, 2022 by JohnfromUK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave at kelton Posted July 4, 2022 Report Share Posted July 4, 2022 3 hours ago, JohnfromUK said: and that is exactly the thought I was having. There have been a few cases around here of animals lost to various 'litter', be it dog poo bags, Chinese lanterns, etc. Not as far as I know any cartridges or wads - certainly that I have heard of locally. Some may even be just 'hear say', but word has got round and anything see lying around on grazing ground is 'taboo'. When I ran a shoot (20+ years ago) one farmer was very clear that if he found 'bits of plastic', empty cases etc - we could forget about the shooting. We had to be very strict about wads even down to checking cartridges as many of the visiting and guest guns simply didn't know what they had(!), and we had someone on the shoot's 'books' collecting any empties dropped behind and not picked by the gun concerned. I have posted on the issue of biodegradable wads before. Where I pickup it has been no plastic for years. When I walk the drives in the spring the only wads I see are felt. The biodegradable ones have long since disintegrated on upland hill drives. These are the biodegradable wads a few weeks into the season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted July 4, 2022 Report Share Posted July 4, 2022 1 minute ago, Dave at kelton said: The biodegradable ones have long since disintegrated on upland hill drives. Which is good to hear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted July 4, 2022 Report Share Posted July 4, 2022 5 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said: but it is what the farmers/landowners want that matters. Which is what I said, but it’s not because of the risk to stock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted July 4, 2022 Report Share Posted July 4, 2022 39 minutes ago, Scully said: I have no idea if the majority have a good knowledge of steel shot or not, I said I doubted if the vast majority were ‘ballistic laymen’. The fact is, you don’t need to be a ballistic layman to enjoy your shooting. Even when I reloaded I didn’t get bogged down in ballistics; there’s simply no need unless you want to, and it certainly won’t make you a better shot. If standard steel isn’t up to the job for those who prefer their birds very high or even extreme, then they can use HP steel. The only problems I perceive are those who want to shoot steel with small bores, or very high birds with thin skinned, short chambered guns. There are options out there if people choose to use them, but it may require them to make changes or compromise. The choices are there. Is a layman up Norf different from one down Souf? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted July 4, 2022 Report Share Posted July 4, 2022 Just now, wymberley said: Is a layman up Norf different from one down Souf? I have no idea, I tend to keep my distance, wherever they’re from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted July 4, 2022 Report Share Posted July 4, 2022 1 hour ago, Scully said: I have no idea, I tend to keep my distance, wherever they’re from. Shame. Being unburdened by excessive pointless technical garbage they’re the folk that usually talk sound common sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted July 4, 2022 Report Share Posted July 4, 2022 1 minute ago, wymberley said: Shame. Being unburdened by excessive pointless technical garbage they’re the folk that usually talk sound common sense. Not in my experience! They’re usually the ones sat alone in pubs cos they bore the pants off anyone who goes near! 😀 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.