mattsccm Posted October 25, 2022 Report Share Posted October 25, 2022 Please excuse any errors in my thinking. I am darn sure that I am missing a hell of a lot. My limited reading tells me that steel shot works better with a more open choke. Maybe, never tried it. As we know most .410s without variable chokes are quite tight to say the least. This leads me to think that, come the day when lead has gone , our .410s will not be patterning as well. So, is this the opportunity to lop the ends off the 28" barrels of my Mossberg/New Haven without the results being as dire as they currently would be with lead. (with the mod on it's musket like!) Lets assume .410 steel exists and avoid other expensive lead alteratives. Just idle musings whilst in the bath last night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultrastu Posted October 25, 2022 Report Share Posted October 25, 2022 As steel is too hard for. 410 s in general irrespective of choke .its said that shooting steel .410s isn't safe and as such we are all hoping for a exemption for .410s so they can continue to use lead carts .same with airgun pellets . Fingers crossed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted October 25, 2022 Report Share Posted October 25, 2022 2 hours ago, mattsccm said: Please excuse any errors in my thinking. I am darn sure that I am missing a hell of a lot. My limited reading tells me that steel shot works better with a more open choke. Maybe, never tried it. As we know most .410s without variable chokes are quite tight to say the least. This leads me to think that, come the day when lead has gone , our .410s will not be patterning as well. So, is this the opportunity to lop the ends off the 28" barrels of my Mossberg/New Haven without the results being as dire as they currently would be with lead. (with the mod on it's musket like!) Lets assume .410 steel exists and avoid other expensive lead alteratives. Just idle musings whilst in the bath last night. 4.10 steel exists however I’d be inclined to leave it alone until we know exactly what the new legislation brings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonepark Posted October 25, 2022 Report Share Posted October 25, 2022 2 hours ago, mattsccm said: Please excuse any errors in my thinking. I am darn sure that I am missing a hell of a lot. My limited reading tells me that steel shot works better with a more open choke. Maybe, never tried it. As we know most .410s without variable chokes are quite tight to say the least. This leads me to think that, come the day when lead has gone , our .410s will not be patterning as well. So, is this the opportunity to lop the ends off the 28" barrels of my Mossberg/New Haven without the results being as dire as they currently would be with lead. (with the mod on it's musket like!) Lets assume .410 steel exists and avoid other expensive lead alteratives. Just idle musings whilst in the bath last night. Steel works in a 410 within very narrow parameters. 3/8oz of steel fills up a TPS wad (the only suitable wad manufactured). UK no6 steel (US no7) is the most suitable size that still has a pattern and penetrates to 25 yards. Powders are more limited in an already limited market. Min diameter of choke would be 0.400 inch and even that is probably not required at ranges to be shot at of 25 yards and under where cylinder would do. UK sources of components are currently about ZERO. 2 and 2.5 guns would be obsolete overnight as only 3inch guns have the volume and pressure rating to cope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adzyvilla Posted October 25, 2022 Report Share Posted October 25, 2022 Would be the end of my winchester 9410 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultrastu Posted October 25, 2022 Report Share Posted October 25, 2022 Any .410 with ported Barrels ,shooting steel could be a big issue if they snag or get jammed going down the bore .again I speculate but I wouldn't try it ,I value my face and fingers too much . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonepark Posted October 25, 2022 Report Share Posted October 25, 2022 7 hours ago, Ultrastu said: As steel is too hard for. 410 s in general irrespective of choke .its said that shooting steel .410s isn't safe and as such we are all hoping for a exemption for .410s so they can continue to use lead carts .same with airgun pellets . Fingers crossed 18 minutes ago, Ultrastu said: Any .410 with ported Barrels ,shooting steel could be a big issue if they snag or get jammed going down the bore .again I speculate but I wouldn't try it ,I value my face and fingers too much . You are making up imaginary problems.... Steel is by no way ideal for shooting in a 410 due to the limited volume of even the 3 inch case but it is as perfectly safe as any other bore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Best Posted October 25, 2022 Report Share Posted October 25, 2022 18 minutes ago, Stonepark said: You are making up imaginary problems.... Steel is by no way ideal for shooting in a 410 due to the limited volume of even the 3 inch case but it is as perfectly safe as any other bore. Correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultrastu Posted October 25, 2022 Report Share Posted October 25, 2022 30 minutes ago, Stonepark said: You are making up imaginary problems.... Steel is by no way ideal for shooting in a 410 due to the limited volume of even the 3 inch case but it is as perfectly safe as any other bore. In a ported barrel ? with 5mm holes drilled along it . What happens when those steel balls hit the edge of the steel ports ? I know the lead shot gets a slice taken off it . Have you tried it ? If there is a full cup plas wad it may separate the steel shot from the ports somewhat .but many .410 plas wads are just bungs so the shot runs up the bore in direct contact with the walls and any porting . It's a concern of mine .maybe you know more and can enlighten us . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted October 25, 2022 Report Share Posted October 25, 2022 5 minutes ago, Ultrastu said: In a ported barrel ? with 5mm holes drilled along it . What happens when those steel balls hit the edge of the steel ports ? I know the lead shot gets a slice taken off it . Have you tried it ? If there is a full cup plas wad it may separate the steel shot from the ports somewhat .but many .410 plas wads are just bungs so the shot runs up the bore in direct contact with the walls and any porting . It's a concern of mine .maybe you know more and can enlighten us . Which gun has 5mm holes as ‘ports’? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultrastu Posted October 25, 2022 Report Share Posted October 25, 2022 Mossberg .hushpower pump Baikal hushpower single shot Pedretti hushpower Yildiz hushpower Mossberg 500 stealth . And the 20b and 12b versions too If you search Mossberg .410 barrel port images it comes straight up . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted October 25, 2022 Report Share Posted October 25, 2022 8 minutes ago, Ultrastu said: Mossberg .hushpower pump Baikal hushpower single shot Pedretti hushpower Yildiz hushpower Mossberg 500 stealth . And the 20b and 12b versions too If you search Mossberg .410 barrel port images it comes straight up . Ah, with you! Not that familiar with moderated shotguns; I thought you meant a regular barrel. 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultrastu Posted October 25, 2022 Report Share Posted October 25, 2022 Obviously on a gas operated semi auto there are usually just 2 small (2.5 mm ish ) holes on the underside to cycle the action . These I doubt would cause much issue with steel shot .but on a mossberg there are 12 holes drilled along the last 8 inches or so of the barrel 6 on either side of around 5 mm in diameter . Not sure about the full length shrouded barrels of the yildiz and pedretti .probably more holes . Stone Park will be along soon to enlighten us on the effect of 2.6 steel shot hitting the edge of these holes and what effect it will have on the ports shape over time and the pressure exerted on the barrel walls and also the damage to the steel shot and hence pattern shape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fellside Posted October 25, 2022 Report Share Posted October 25, 2022 I can understand Ultrastu’s concern - now that I know it’s about moderated 410s. What we should be pushing for, is a pragmatic approach around future shot type legislation, so that this lovely little caliber doesn’t become extinct….!! I think allowing the 410 to continue as a lead cartridge gun for vermin is a reasonable ask. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultrastu Posted October 25, 2022 Report Share Posted October 25, 2022 1 minute ago, Fellside said: I can understand Ultrastu’s concern - now that I know it’s about moderated 410s. What we should be pushing for, is a pragmatic approach around future shot type legislation, so that this lovely little caliber doesn’t become extinct….!! I think allowing the 410 to continue as a lead cartridge gun for vermin is a reasonable ask. 👍 Absolutely .it's not like loads of people spend all weekend claypigeon shooting with .410s or firing loads of rounds on a driven day . They are small use vermin control guns for the most part and I doubt that would change even if they were the only Calibre to be allowed to continue using lead . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker570 Posted October 25, 2022 Report Share Posted October 25, 2022 I have gone straight to bismuth. OK it is expensive but in the full cost of my annual pilgimage to a few driven bird estates each year it is irrelevant. Just have to cut back on the other uneeded items to cover it. 410s are a different breed to other gauges and pressures rise very quickly, that is why when reloading you need to be very precise. I would not consider shooting steel at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted October 25, 2022 Report Share Posted October 25, 2022 23 minutes ago, Ultrastu said: Obviously on a gas operated semi auto there are usually just 2 small (2.5 mm ish ) holes on the underside to cycle the action . These I doubt would cause much issue with steel shot .but on a mossberg there are 12 holes drilled along the last 8 inches or so of the barrel 6 on either side of around 5 mm in diameter . Not sure about the full length shrouded barrels of the yildiz and pedretti .probably more holes . Stone Park will be along soon to enlighten us on the effect of 2.6 steel shot hitting the edge of these holes and what effect it will have on the ports shape over time and the pressure exerted on the barrel walls and also the damage to the steel shot and hence pattern shape. Just had a thought….if it’s steel shot then it’ll be contained in a cup until it leaves the muzzle, like all steel shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultrastu Posted October 25, 2022 Report Share Posted October 25, 2022 8 minutes ago, Scully said: Just had a thought….if it’s steel shot then it’ll be contained in a cup until it leaves the muzzle, like all steel shot. Yeah .hope so but the cup type wads take up valuable space in the small .410 shell . Hence why most (not all ) .410 cartridges actually use a bung type plas wad ,similar to a fibre wad for lead shot . I only know of hull high pheasant and fiocchi that use a full cup that encloses the shot .effective as they are , those petals get shredded by barrel ports and occasionally catch in the baffles of my moderator . I actually have a new .410 on order, and it will have a mod fitted but without any barrel porting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted October 25, 2022 Report Share Posted October 25, 2022 If a full cup is effective, as you claim, then how is steel shot going to come into contact with ported holes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windswept Posted October 25, 2022 Report Share Posted October 25, 2022 (edited) With my ported modded 410 you are advised to not use plastic wads as they can leave bits of plastic blocking the barrel. If you do use plastic wads you are advised to check the barrel after each shot. Not easy to do on a single break barrel let alone a pump. Edited October 25, 2022 by Windswept Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted October 25, 2022 Report Share Posted October 25, 2022 3 minutes ago, Windswept said: With my ported modded 410 you are advised to not use plastic wads as they can leave bits of plastic blocking the barrel. If you do use plastic wads you are advised to check the barrel after each shot. Not easy to do on a single break barrel let alone a pump. I think plastic wads will soon be a thing of the past, as all wads of all variants are going to have to be biodegradable, as tons of plastic littering the environment are just another no no, hence the development of eco wads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultrastu Posted October 25, 2022 Report Share Posted October 25, 2022 20 minutes ago, Scully said: If a full cup is effective, as you claim, then how is steel shot going to come into contact with ported holes? It probably isn't . Unless the petal has been shredded away by the first couple of holes leaving shot to hit the ports . Also the petals become very thin where the (I've only used lead ) shot has been pushed so very hard into the walls would they push into the port through the very thin plastic petal wall as they pass ?? I dont know . 10 minutes ago, Windswept said: With my ported modded 410 you are advised to not use plastic wads as they can leave bits of plastic blocking the barrel. If you do use plastic wads you are advised to check the barrel after each shot. Not easy to do on a single break barrel let alone a pump. Which type of plastic wad do you mean ? They act very differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Best Posted October 25, 2022 Report Share Posted October 25, 2022 So, despite saying that steel is not safe to use in .410 guns, you were really only referring to those with moderated/ported barrels? That will be a very small percentage of .410 guns currently in use then. Virtually everyone I know has a .410 of some description and I don’t know of a single moderated/ported one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultrastu Posted October 25, 2022 Report Share Posted October 25, 2022 So if 12 bore is 18.5 mm And 20 b is 15.5 mm and . 410 is 10.5 mm Give or take and its recommended that in 12b we don't use tighter than 1/2 choke for steel shot and the same for 20b . I take that is because steel doesn't like being squeezed too tight as there is no give and could put too much pressure on the muzzle as it passes . It seems logical to me that a 10.5 mm .410 is already very tight with no extra choke applied and even a little sqeezing could be too much . Again I'm no expert on the pressures at play here and what would be deemed acceptable . But maybe its no coincidence that there seems to be virtually no steel .410 loads available in the UK. (The Americans love making things go bang so I'm not surprised there is a Winchester cart available over the pond) Again I'd love to know .there used to be a fella on this forum called neutrino I believe ,he was super smart and did loads of cartridge tests especially in .410 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted October 25, 2022 Report Share Posted October 25, 2022 53 minutes ago, Ultrastu said: Yeah .hope so but the cup type wads take up valuable space in the small .410 shell . Hence why most (not all ) .410 cartridges actually use a bung type plas wad ,similar to a fibre wad for lead shot . I only know of hull high pheasant and fiocchi that use a full cup that encloses the shot .effective as they are , those petals get shredded by barrel ports and occasionally catch in the baffles of my moderator . I actually have a new .410 on order, and it will have a mod fitted but without any barrel porting. Will your new 4.10 be proof for steel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.