Outstanding .410 Pattern

[neutron619]

6 minutes ago, Gas seal said:

A cartridge loaded with the same components a rto will give the lower pressure eight point crimp more pressure six point crimp higher again.

Certainly true.

I've spent the day thinking about this and my only additional thought at this point would be: if the manufacutrers are having to resort to using a roll crimp - which, let's face it, is more of a faff than a fold crimp these days - then the chances are that this is a cartridge right on the borderline of max pressure, because otherwise they'd use a star crimp. Star crimps being easier to machine, faster to process, fewer components, etc.

Oh - and the idea of putting an 8-point crimp on a .410 chell amused me too. No doubt it's been done, but it must be fiddly to get the loading machine set up for that.

[Old farrier]

6 minutes ago, Gas seal said:

A cartridge loaded with the same components a rto will give the lower pressure eight point crimp more pressure six point crimp higher again. A bulging crimp ie using larger size pellets will be the highest pressure. The cartridges Old farrier fired will be Cheddite cases in 10gauge they are not as strong as the US cases. It could be the rto getting to hot when the cartridges were made, the felt wads could be a bit small, I’ve seen this with 10gauge felt and sp10 wads when opened the power had passed the seal some in the wad (cavity) some had power in the shot. If the empty case is bulging were the wad would have been the gas has passed the seal. I’ve loaded steel pellets in.410 and some cases had melted ends but none split or damaged the cases. I would open one cutting below the crimp and above the wad . Check the crimp, see if the wad is a tight fit look at the condition of the case. 

Not wishing to be seen to be disagreeable 🙄

but the cases were most definitely not 10 bore cartridges or cases or home loads 

a premium game 4.10 cartridges 

please look at the picture again 🤔

maybe you had a typo 

[neutron619]

48 minutes ago, Minky said:

I've just seen this thread and posts.  Previously I have posted pictures on a thread a few months ago.  I was on a simulated driven clay shoot. 

... 

I reload my cartridges and haven't had problems like this before.  I found that the cartridges That displayed this problem  were  from differing case manufacturers. I will find the pictures and  add the images on this thread later.

Again, no specific expertise to back this up, but given you used the words "simulated driven clay shoot", I'd bet that you probably had red-hot barrels from banging off several hundred cartridges in a short space of time when this was happening. Given the difference 0°C in winter going to 30°C in summer can make to the performance of a cartridge, I can easily imagine that a barrel at 200°C would transfer enough energy into the shell prior to firing to generate over-pressure. I'm not suggesting anything as drastic as cooking off cartridges, but you could easily generate a few more bar just by burning the powder that much hotter. On that basis, more heat; less likelihood that the wad seals the bore and crimp-as-weak-point during firing would make sense.

[Gas seal]

Hi Old farrier I was giving a few reasons I thought would affect your cartridges. Yes l know that they are commercial.410 cartridges ,the crimp the wad and strength of the case is what I would look at in any gauge of shotgun cartridges . It looks like the case isn’t strong enough to take the load . Using a rto could be to get the amount of shot in the cartridges. It looks like it’s the three inch cartridges that have the problem with the cases. The cartridges cases in the photo look like Cheddite. 

[Old farrier]

31 minutes ago, Gas seal said:

Hi Old farrier I was giving a few reasons I thought would affect your cartridges. Yes l know that they are commercial.410 cartridges ,the crimp the wad and strength of the case is what I would look at in any gauge of shotgun cartridges . It looks like the case isn’t strong enough to take the load . Using a rto could be to get the amount of shot in the cartridges. It looks like it’s the three inch cartridges that have the problem with the cases. The cartridges cases in the photo look like Cheddite. 

No idea what make of cases they are I’m afraid 

If you look at the picture again you can see the 2.1/2 inch one that the head came off at the back of the picture no burning at the mouth 

In your opinion is it acceptable to experience this in a premium factory load or any factory load really 

 

appologie to the OP we appear to have moved away from the original topic of pattern 

[neutron619]

33 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

appologie to the OP we appear to have moved away from the original topic of pattern 

No worries - these things always drift. Let me just post up one more pattern in case anyone comes here later to do some archaeology on this thread and I'll leave it to meander wherever it goes. 👍

This one's very good also - same gun choke and cartridge, 30 yards:

[Old farrier]

6 minutes ago, neutron619 said:

No worries - these things always drift. Let me just post up one more pattern in case anyone comes here later to do some archaeology on this thread and I'll leave it to meander wherever it goes. 👍

This one's very good also - same gun choke and cartridge, 30 yards:

It’s a good pattern for 30 yards 👍

 

[Walker570]

22 hours ago, Old farrier said:

I haven’t been able to find a fibre fiochie 3 inch could you recommend one for me please 😊

Many thanks for posting very helpful information 

iv found 4 or 5 thou of choke in my browning 30 inch give me the best pattern 

As said 410 is a cartridge gun combination not one suits all especially with fibre wads 

could you tell us what gun you use to do the test please 😊👍

I don't believe Fiocchi do a fibre wad, that and saving a few bob is why I reload. I'm getting reasonably good patterns with fibre and bismurh #6s.

 

[Fellside]

On 20/11/2022 at 22:06, neutron619 said:

No worries - these things always drift. Let me just post up one more pattern in case anyone comes here later to do some archaeology on this thread and I'll leave it to meander wherever it goes. 👍

This one's very good also - same gun choke and cartridge, 30 yards:

My discoveries with these 3” HHP are similar - very impressive. If anything, too dense at ‘average’ ranges. This is easily overcome however, by using a more open choke for one my barrels. The only other 410 cartridge I buy these days are Eley Trap 14 gram for clays. Thanks very much for posting the pattern pics. 

[Salmo9]

A thoughtful and interesting thread, which had me dig out the vernier calipers and assortment of chokes supplied with my own Yildiz 410 O/U.. Having noted the bore diameter (10.2mm or 0.402”) stamped alongside the Birmingham proof marks I wrongly assumed choke constriction would be extrapolated from the choke exit diameter and barrel bore size, subsequently my chokes measured were off the scale.. It then occurred to me that both my barrels increased in tube diameter approximately 4” towards the muzzle, no doubt to accommodate the removable chokes. Therefore with this observation I decided to measure each end of the individual choke tubes which I’d hoped would settle some of the previous disparity.. It did to a degree.

5 notch choke - entry 0.422”   Exit 0.408”.  Constriction 0.014”.  

4 notch choke - Entry 0.422”.  Exit 0.405”.  Constriction 0.017”.  

3 notch choke - still in gun in cabinet and its late...

2 notch choke - Entry 0.422”.   Exit 0.391”.   Constriction 0.031”.   

1 notch choke - Entry 0.421”.    Exit 0.386”.  Constriction 0.035”.  

Perhaps today’s manufacturers expects us to instruct our ‘Gunsmiths’ to regulate these chokes thereby leaving a bit of meat on the choke bores for the final ‘fettling’ 

Also, to add a bit of further confusion for yours truly, Teague and Briley appear to list 410 choke constrictions differently.. ie 1/4 = 0.004”. 1/2 = 0.008”. 3/4 = 0.012” and Full = 0.016”.. 

I need to sleep on this...

[Walker570]

As known I shoot the Yilditz 410s, I have two same model.  Initially I used full (1 notch) with great sucess but found that 20-25yrd birds got more difficult to fit in the pattern  and Richard Gray said to try the middle of the road chokes, so I now us 2 notch in the first barrel and 3 notch in the second barrel and try to kill the first bird out infront  then the slightly more open choke gives me a better pattern for a secong shot loser up.   It has always been a mystery why older fixed choke shotguns seemed to have the choking the wrong way around with the left hand barrel full choke but I suppose there was more walked up game back then.   It is great that we can now choose.

 

[enfieldspares]

2 hours ago, Walker570 said:

 It has always been a mystery why older fixed choke shotguns seemed to have the choking the wrong way around with the left hand barrel full choke but I suppose there was more walked up game back then.   It is great that we can now choose.

Yes and no. There's a number of views on this for 12 bore guns with the old once standard 2 1/2" chamber. Here's two (I've not mentioned the walked up use as it's well know):

1) The more tightly choked second barrel can be used as longer range tool to take the as the FIRST bird of a driven flush of pheasants or incoming duck further out. Shooting firstly the backmost bird of the flush. This is an analogy to the Alvin York method of shooting charging Germans in WWI. Take the backmost one first and far out and the nearmost one last. Even today some writers still suggest this method is used almost as a if it were a long range death ray!

2) It is an ideal "do it all" combination of right barrel IMP and left barrel FULL often used by BSA between the wars. Or in hammer guns made for gamekeepers back in the day. The idea being that most shots taken on moving quarry are close range single shots and those are best taken with the right IMP barrel. The left FULL barrel is for shooting more difficult further away (or close in) sitting vermin such as magpies, crows, stoats, weasels, grey squirrels and etc. where the target is small and a deliberate "aimed" shot is taken. This also being FULL gives a better shot density that is needed to make a killing pattern with the 1 1/8 ounce of English #5 shot that was al most "de rigeur" back then!

3) The second barrel being meant NOT for a second "go" at a missed bird! It is tighter as it allows the right barrel to be used to take your own incoming driven bird and the tighter left barrel the bird that has now passed over the gun line to take any bird that you neighbour gun to left or right missed when it went over him. As you "wipe his eye"!

4) In places where it was done such as India during the British Raj the open right barrel allows a solid slug to be loaded for "stalked" soft skinned non dangerous game and tolerable accuracy possible with the left barrel reserved for buckshot also for use on that soft skinned dangerous game you are after if it is running.

Me? My game guns are all bored IMP and IMP in both barrels. If I want a denser pattern where birds higher than the usual twenty-five yards are anticipated I'll use 1 1/8 ounce of shot instead of 1 ounce. My duck guns (when lead was legal) for inland evening flighting over my own pond were bored half and half as suggested in his book by Colin Willock. 

Edited December 10, 2022 by enfieldspares

[Walker570]

Sensible man after my own heart. Put it in the pattern.

[Stonepark]

17 hours ago, Salmo9 said:

A thoughtful and interesting thread, which had me dig out the vernier calipers and assortment of chokes supplied with my own Yildiz 410 O/U.. Having noted the bore diameter (10.2mm or 0.402”) stamped alongside the Birmingham proof marks I wrongly assumed choke constriction would be extrapolated from the choke exit diameter and barrel bore size, subsequently my chokes measured were off the scale.. It then occurred to me that both my barrels increased in tube diameter approximately 4” towards the muzzle, no doubt to accommodate the removable chokes. Therefore with this observation I decided to measure each end of the individual choke tubes which I’d hoped would settle some of the previous disparity.. It did to a degree.

5 notch choke - entry 0.422”   Exit 0.408”.  Constriction 0.014”.  

4 notch choke - Entry 0.422”.  Exit 0.405”.  Constriction 0.017”.  

3 notch choke - still in gun in cabinet and its late...

2 notch choke - Entry 0.422”.   Exit 0.391”.   Constriction 0.031”.   

1 notch choke - Entry 0.421”.    Exit 0.386”.  Constriction 0.035”.  

Perhaps today’s manufacturers expects us to instruct our ‘Gunsmiths’ to regulate these chokes thereby leaving a bit of meat on the choke bores for the final ‘fettling’ 

Also, to add a bit of further confusion for yours truly, Teague and Briley appear to list 410 choke constrictions differently.. ie 1/4 = 0.004”. 1/2 = 0.008”. 3/4 = 0.012” and Full = 0.016”.. 

I need to sleep on this...

35 thou on a 410 choke is ridiculous.

Pattern each choke at 35 yards on a pattern board and count pellets in a 30 inch circle.

 

My Khan (Revo) ou also came with multichokes that were way over the top and I ended up using **** & ***** as they were the only two that seemed to work (before getting Briley after market chokes) and gave best pattern.

 

On firing original Khan chokes I got with 18g no6 with Cyl an Imp giving best most even patterns

 

Cyl 66

Imp 68

Half 68

Imp Mod 70

Full 73

 

And on the Briley With 18g no7 light Mod (12 thou) gives the most even pattern, followed by mod

Cyl 79

Skeet 114

Imp 121

Light Mod 136

Mod 136

Imp Mod 128

Light Full 120

 

 

[Fargo]

Bought a Yildiz 30” at Xmas and after messing about in the farm yard I came to conclusion for normal birds 15-25 yards 1/2 choke was best with smallest shot I can get in fibre wad which is 7 by eley or some old FOB 7’s but think there plastic which I don’t like using 

[Centrepin]

7 hours ago, Fargo said:

Bought a Yildiz 30” at Xmas and after messing about in the farm yard I came to conclusion for normal birds 15-25 yards 1/2 choke was best with smallest shot I can get in fibre wad which is 7 by eley or some old FOB 7’s but think there plastic which I don’t like using 

I've not come across as yet anything but plaswad for .410.

[London Best]

9 hours ago, Fargo said:

Bought a Yildiz 30” at Xmas and after messing about in the farm yard I came to conclusion for normal birds 15-25 yards 1/2 choke was best with smallest shot I can get in fibre wad which is 7 by eley or some old FOB 7’s but think there plastic which I don’t like using 

You are right to use the smallest shot in a .410. 
Note in @Stonepark’s post how he was getting twice the pellets in his pattern with No.7 as he was with No.6. 
I have generally used No.7 in .410 (both mine are 2.5 inch), but I did once buy two slabs of Express in No.9.  These absolutely cut crows to shreds at around 30 yards. I shot a few pigeons with them. I plucked one which had 19 pellet strikes in the breast. I did not use these for game. 
Eley now offer a cartridge they call Trap .410. I find these very good indeed. The designated (?) shot size is 7 1/2. I cut open a couple and counted around 25 more pellets than in an Express No.7 with he same 14 gram load.

[Fargo]

1 hour ago, Centrepin said:

I've not come across as yet anything but plaswad for .410.

Eley are all fibre I think and the Hull, not sure about Express or Gamebore.

[London Best]

5 hours ago, Fargo said:

Eley are all fibre I think and the Hull, not sure about Express or Gamebore.

Both the Express and Eley Trap I cut open were plastic, I’m afraid. 
I will not buy plastic wads in 12 or 20 but have little choice in .410. 
I believe Hull 2 1/2 inch .410 are only 11 gram loads?

[Fargo]

5 minutes ago, London Best said:

Both the Express and Eley Trap I cut open were plastic, I’m afraid. 
I will not buy plastic wads in 12 or 20 but have little choice in .410. 
I believe Hull 2 1/2 inch .410 are only 11 gram loads?

Hull High Pheasant 18g are fibre 

Eley too

 

[London Best]

51 minutes ago, Fargo said:

Hull High Pheasant 18g are fibre 

Eley too

 

Yes, I know Fourlongs are fibre, but rarely, if ever nowadays available in No.7. 
I find them pretty useless in 7/16 ounce (12.5 gram) No.5 after little more than 20+ yards. The load contains only about 97 pellets. Compare that to the 195 I have counted in a 14 gram Trap 7 1/2 and the effective pattern difference becomes obvious.  
I cannot shoot the 18/19/20 loads as I do not have a three inch .410 magnum, just game guns both made in 1902.

edited : sorry, my bad. Edited to read 195 not 295. 
My fingers like a cow’s udder hit 2 not 1.

Edited May 4, 2023 by London Best

[Old farrier]

26 minutes ago, London Best said:

Yes, I know Fourlongs are fibre, but rarely, if ever nowadays available in No.7. 
I find them pretty useless in 7/16 ounce (12.5 gram) No.5 after little more than 20+ yards. The load contains only about 97 pellets. Compare that to the 295 I have counted in a 14 gram Trap 7 1/2 and the effective pattern difference becomes obvious.  
I cannot shoot the 18/19/20 loads as I do not have a three inch .410 magnum, just game guns both made in 1902.

 

Edited May 4, 2023 by Old farrier

[London Best]

18 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

 

Yes, the Express are now available in fibre. 
14 gram No.7 is nominally 170 pellets. 
Compare that to the Hull? 11 gram No.6 with a nominal 106 pellets, and you will see which is most effective on game.

[Old farrier]

9 minutes ago, London Best said:

Yes, the Express are now available in fibre. 
14 gram No.7 is nominally 170 pellets. 
Compare that to the Hull? 11 gram No.6 with a nominal 106 pellets, and you will see which is most effective on game.

I don’t use them myself on game I prefer more but it shows the manufacturers are working towards making something more suitable in the fibre wad area 

[London Best]

Just now, Old farrier said:

I don’t use them myself on game I prefer more but it shows the manufacturers are working towards making something more suitable in the fibre wad area 

Agreed. I generally use a 12 bore myself, but now and then fancy a day with the .410, mostly for corvids but have used .410 on pheasants, partridge, woodcock, mallard and even grouse.