Outstanding .410 Pattern

[neutron619]

Just thought I'd share this in case it was useful to anyone.

I had a short while to pattern test a new .410 cartridge at lunchtime today. I still need to do a full test, but the initial results are outstanding.

Below is the pattern for a Hull High Pheasant 18g / #7 cartridge through the ¾ choke barrel of my .410 at 40 yards. I have never seen a pattern which retains this number / proportion of pellets at that distance.

I suspect, given the #7 shot and the fact that it's only approaching the bare minimum of 120 pellets in the 30" circle (I'd prefer 140 for wood pigeon; energy is fine) that it isn't a genuine 40-yard cartridge, but it is the closest I've ever seen to it (and I've tested a lot of cartridges - see https://www.smallboreshotguns.com). It's probably good out to 36-38 yards, and for larger birds - e.g. pheasant - might genuinely reach 40 yards on a good day.

The nearest performance I've seen to this is the same cartridge in a #6 shot which patterns similarly well in percentage performance terms, but only puts c. 90 pellets in the circle at 40 yards. The #7 cartridge seems to be better balanced, on that basis.

Ignore the fanboys who rave about the Fiocchi loadings (they melt and crack the cases in my gun, and pattern like ****) - Hull's load is the canine's testicles. I'll be stocking up on these in advance of the lead ban we all know is coming.

PS - Looking at it again, I reckon that pattern was centered higher than I drew it - one might get 120-125 if the circle were pushed up 4-5" - I'll count it again tomorrow to see.

Edited November 19, 2022 by neutron619

[enfieldspares]

Thank you for posting that as I have an AYA No4 in .410" and, yes, Fiocchi don;t eject at all well. Not at all well! For clay pigeons I like the Eley Trap #7.5 loading with a plastic wad and for rats and squirrels Lyalvale 2" loaded with #9. 

[TOPGUN749]

With 18 grams giving 187 number 7 pellets and getting 120 pellets inside a 30” circle that is almost exactly right for a 3/4 choke. Almost the equivalent of using 30 grams in a true cylinder barrel,(125 pellets)which is stretching it a bit on live game I would say.35 yards sounds reasonable though,number 7 hasn’t much energy at 40 yards.

[Walker570]

Yep a very good pattern . They are an excellent cartridge.  I have noticed with 410 you have to experiment a bit to find a cartridge which suits your chokes/barrels. I reload all of mine, usually #7s although I have gone to #6s for bismuth and have eased back a bit to the equivalent of 3/4 choke in my Yilditz as the full choke was just a bit to tight.

A 40 yard bird is a good bird and most shots will be around the 25yrd mark which means the pattern will then reduce in size to around 20 inches at most making accuracy more important than pattern. 

I do all of my testing at 35yrds and the penetration on the hard ply backing after passing through the paper then cardboard is at least the depth of the shot.

Factory shells, my favorite has to be Fiocchi with High Pheasant coming a very close second.

[London Best]

I have found it best never to use larger than No.7 shot in my .410’s to maintain pattern density. 
But my guns are 2 1/2 inch so only shoot 14 grams of shot. 
I try not to shoot past 30 yards.

Energy-wise, there is enough energy retained in No7 shot to kill pheasants at 40 yards, as proven many times ( through 12 bore guns).

[neutron619]

40 minutes ago, TOPGUN749 said:

With 18 grams giving 187 number 7 pellets and getting 120 pellets inside a 30” circle that is almost exactly right for a 3/4 choke. Almost the equivalent of using 30 grams in a true cylinder barrel,(125 pellets)which is stretching it a bit on live game I would say.35 yards sounds reasonable though,number 7 hasn’t much energy at 40 yards.

I agree with all you've said.

My use of the word "outstanding" is simply based on the fact that no other .410 cartridge I've ever come across, shot through any choke of any constriction actually produces the choke performance associated with that choke.

The Fiocchi 19g load, for example, produced patterns more open than nominal Cylinder through ½, ¾, Full chokes in my gun (although I don't usually bother testing Full now as it seems to blow the patterns every time). Performance was even worse through the looser chokes. It's unusable beyond about 20 yards (in my gun), if that. The "old" Eley loads too - half of the front of the catridge disappeared up the gun with the shot and knocked out most of the pattern before it hit the card. Useless.

The Hull cartridge (and the #6 version) are the exception - they actually produce the nominal performance for the barrel in question (and in doing so, produce a usable pattern out to 35 yards). I'm extremely impressed, as I was when I tested the #6 cartridge some time ago.

I'll be stocking up on these ASAP. I have tended to use the 18g/#6 load whcih kills well, but I suspect the #7 is better balanced, now I've seen some patterns.

 

Aside:

In case it's of interest, I also like the Eley Trap shells which work well for clays (again, in my gun). I find the 14g/#9 load lovely to shoot on skeet and surprisingly good on sporting - it won't break the very long targets but it'll go a lot further than one might think. The 19g/#7½ load is good too, but I don't buy lots of them - they're a bit "in between". I won't point them at birds and the #9 generally tend to break anything the sparser pattern of the #7½ will.

A shame that it's only within the last year or two that we're finally seeing commercial loads which will make the best of the .410 - only to find they might be rendered illegal in short order...

[Ultrastu]

I love hull high pheasant  I have the olas wad 19 grm no6 and fibre 18 grm no6 

Versions. Prefer the  plas wads for killing power  but the fibres are still good and better than most other brands . I was out yesterday on the last field to be drilled after crows .and we have some cracking shots .dropping some nice crows at range , I think the furthest was around 35 yds  .

Full choke for me out my yildiz  

 

[Stonepark]

23 minutes ago, neutron619 said:

My use of the word "outstanding" is simply based on the fact that no other .410 cartridge I've ever come across, shot through any choke of any constriction actually produces the choke performance associated with that choke.

That's because amongst other things the manufacturers cheap out and don't use 5% or 6% antimony shot, so pressure if the 410 causes lots of shot damage and hence patterns 10% to 50% behind where the choke suggests.

 

It would be interesting to know if Hull are now using Euro 7.5, 5% antimony shot in these loadings... (UK no7).

Edited November 20, 2022 by Stonepark

[London Best]

The Eley Trap 14 gram 7 1/2 kill crows really well.

But so do Express 14 gram No.9’s.  Really well!

[Old farrier]

1 hour ago, Walker570 said:

Yep a very good pattern . They are an excellent cartridge.  I have noticed with 410 you have to experiment a bit to find a cartridge which suits your chokes/barrels. I reload all of mine, usually #7s although I have gone to #6s for bismuth and have eased back a bit to the equivalent of 3/4 choke in my Yilditz as the full choke was just a bit to tight.

A 40 yard bird is a good bird and most shots will be around the 25yrd mark which means the pattern will then reduce in size to around 20 inches at most making accuracy more important than pattern. 

I do all of my testing at 35yrds and the penetration on the hard ply backing after passing through the paper then cardboard is at least the depth of the shot.

Factory shells, my favorite has to be Fiocchi with High Pheasant coming a very close second.

I haven’t been able to find a fibre fiochie 3 inch could you recommend one for me please 😊

9 hours ago, neutron619 said:

Just thought I'd share this in case it was useful to anyone.

I had a short while to pattern test a new .410 cartridge at lunchtime today. I still need to do a full test, but the initial results are outstanding.

Below is the pattern for a Hull High Pheasant 18g / #7 cartridge through the ¾ choke barrel of my .410 at 40 yards. I have never seen a pattern which retains this number / proportion of pellets at that distance.

I suspect, given the #7 shot and the fact that it's only approaching the bare minimum of 120 pellets in the 30" circle (I'd prefer 140 for wood pigeon; energy is fine) that it isn't a genuine 40-yard cartridge, but it is the closest I've ever seen to it (and I've tested a lot of cartridges - see https://www.smallboreshotguns.com). It's probably good out to 36-38 yards, and for larger birds - e.g. pheasant - might genuinely reach 40 yards on a good day.

The nearest performance I've seen to this is the same cartridge in a #6 shot which patterns similarly well in percentage performance terms, but only puts c. 90 pellets in the circle at 40 yards. The #7 cartridge seems to be better balanced, on that basis.

Ignore the fanboys who rave about the Fiocchi loadings (they melt and crack the cases in my gun, and pattern like ****) - Hull's load is the canine's testicles. I'll be stocking up on these in advance of the lead ban we all know is coming.

PS - Looking at it again, I reckon that pattern was centered higher than I drew it - one might get 120-125 if the circle were pushed up 4-5" - I'll count it again tomorrow to see.

Many thanks for posting very helpful information 

iv found 4 or 5 thou of choke in my browning 30 inch give me the best pattern 

As said 410 is a cartridge gun combination not one suits all especially with fibre wads 

could you tell us what gun you use to do the test please 😊👍

[neutron619]

27 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

It would be interesting to know if Hull are now using Euro 7.5, 5% antimony shot in these loadings... (UK no7).

I had wondered the same thing. I remember talking with you and others here about the "ideal" .410 recipe and it started with "the hardest shot available".

I've no way to test the hardness of what's in them, but what I can say is that the Hull shot seems to be regular / spherical, whereas I remember that the Fiocchi shot was often irregular / deformed, and that I assumed that this was because it was soft, damaged during the loading process and therefore you lost a certain proportion of the load before you'd even fired the cartridge. The effect then compounded by the conditions you describe above.

There is a picture here,for example, but I think the resolution is too low to make out anything other than a general impression of slight irregularity.

On the basis that I've now agreed to sell the remaining cartridges I'd better not upset my buyer by cutting more up at this point...

20 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

could you tell us what gun you use to do the test please 😊👍

It's a Yildiz SxS - I think it's an "A3". I use the ½ (0.015") and ¾ (0.020") chokes in it - as I said, the Full (0.025") seems to blow patterns.

Edited November 20, 2022 by neutron619

[Old farrier]

Many thanks 

I’d be interested to know your thoughts on the cause of this problem I encountered with a batch of cartridges 

[Ultrastu]

My mate bought some hull no 7  high pheasant  in .410 in the summer  expecting 2.4 mm shot 

After measuring  a few they turned out to be mostly 2.3 mm  So  no 7.5 English .

The no6  I have measures in at 2.6 mm English.  So spot on .

I like the Italian no7.5 ie  2.4  mm and shoot them in my 20b .

They seem to kill pigeons  really well 

 

 

[neutron619]

21 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Many thanks 

I’d be interested to know your thoughts on the cause of this problem I encountered with a batch of cartridges

Well - I'm not an expert, but I have seen that on some of the Eley / Fiocchi cartridges I've tested.

For the testing I've done, it seemed to be associated with 3" cartridges with fibre wads and roll crimps, but it isn't clear from the picture above whether that ties in with the Express cartridges pictured.

A photo of the damage to the Eleys is about halfway down this page: http://www.smallboreshotguns.com/410-bore/410-cartridges/pattern-test-eley-extralong-18g-6/

My guess for the cause is heat and pressure, and possibly the very minimal wadding generally used in the .410 to save space for the shot - but, I can only make observations at this point:

• When I tested the supersonic and subsonic versions of the Eley cartridge, the supersonic cartridge showed the damage but the subsonic didn't. I assume lower velocity is associated with lower pressure, but I don't have any hard evidence to corroborate this as I can't measure pressure.
• I found that the Eley cartridges had a single fibre wad and no nitro card. The wad was only about 6-8mm tall. This isn't much of a gas seal and I suspect some of the combustion gases / heat are passing the wad and interfering with the shot and crimp. Conversely, the Hull cartridges that started this thread use both a skirted plastic wad and a gas seal - I wonder if this is causal.
• I suspect - and more strongly suspect if the previous point is true - that the strength of heated case plastic under pressure is lower than the resistance of the roll crimp. Hence, it's the weakest part of the system when the cartidge is fired and fails before the crimp does, carrying some of the case away down the barrel.
• Further to the previous point, in your case, I suspect that the crimp resistance is exceeding the binding strength between the plastic and the brass, hence their detatching. I wonder if this could be a case of a primer that's too hot for the cartridge being used. It's a poor test but if you had an unfired example which could be pulled apart, we might be able to make an informed guess as to the primer from the seal colour, or at least see that it's different to the colour used in another batch of the same cartridges which don't show the problem. But again, it would be guesswork.

Edited November 20, 2022 by neutron619

[neutron619]

Addendum: the point about roll crimps above may be unique to .410 / small bores. I believe the smaller the bore, the higher the resistance to opening for a roll crimp. It's much harder to open out a .410 roll crimp than a 12 bore because you have to produce proportionately higher force per unit area to unfold a tighter curve - I know this instinctively but I can't, at this point, provide the mathematics to back it up - it's to do with the shorter curve per degree of rotation and some trigonometric cleverness, but I'd have to spend quite a while with a piece of paper to work it out at this point - A-level physics was a long time ago.

[Old farrier]

4 hours ago, neutron619 said:

Addendum: the point about roll crimps above may be unique to .410 / small bores. I believe the smaller the bore, the higher the resistance to opening for a roll crimp. It's much harder to open out a .410 roll crimp than a 12 bore because you have to produce proportionately higher force per unit area to unfold a tighter curve - I know this instinctively but I can't, at this point, provide the mathematics to back it up - it's to do with the shorter curve per degree of rotation and some trigonometric cleverness, but I'd have to spend quite a while with a piece of paper to work it out at this point - A-level physics was a long time ago.

Many thanks for your time and effort in replying 

a very interesting and informative view 

many thanks 

the express were rolled turnover cases 

I shall take one to pieces to attempt to identify the primer 

all the best 

of 

[islandgun]

5 hours ago, Old farrier said:

Many thanks 

I’d be interested to know your thoughts on the cause of this problem I encountered with a batch of cartridges 

 

5 hours ago, neutron619 said:

Addendum: the point about roll crimps above may be unique to .410 / small bores. I believe the smaller the bore, the higher the resistance to opening for a roll crimp. It's much harder to open out a .410 roll crimp than a 12 bore because you have to produce proportionately higher force per unit area to unfold a tighter curve - I know this instinctively but I can't, at this point, provide the mathematics to back it up - it's to do with the shorter curve per degree of rotation and some trigonometric cleverness, but I'd have to spend quite a while with a piece of paper to work it out at this point - A-level physics was a long time ago.

Ive had the same happen to 410 homeloads using a rto, I thought the load was too hot

3 minutes ago, islandgun said:

 

Ive had the same happen to 410 homeloads using a rto, I thought the load was too hot

It makes sense that a rto and overshot disc would be harder to push in a 410 than a 12

[Ultrastu]

I get that burning of the case with my nsi loads .19 grm no6 .

They have a crimped end and a plas wad .though to be fair the damage isn't as bad as seen in the photo  above .

And some times there is no burning at all .

[London Best]

 My mate gets it in a 16 bore with crimped cases.

It is a 2 1/2 inch gun.  

If he uses 65 mm cases it is fine.

If he uses 67 mm cases, supposedly good for 2 1/2 inch chambers, it tears the end.

His problem appears to be very abrupt forcing cones.

[Old farrier]

18 minutes ago, London Best said:

 My mate gets it in a 16 bore with crimped cases.

It is a 2 1/2 inch gun.  

If he uses 65 mm cases it is fine.

If he uses 67 mm cases, supposedly good for 2 1/2 inch chambers, it tears the end.

His problem appears to be very abrupt forcing cones.

Paper or plastic cases?

1 hour ago, islandgun said:

 

Ive had the same happen to 410 homeloads using a rto, I thought the load was too hot

It makes sense that a rto and overshot disc would be harder to push in a 410 than a 12

Just case mouth burning 

or head separating as well? 

[islandgun]

31 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Paper or plastic cases?

Just case mouth burning 

or head separating as well? 

Not separating,  jeez !  I thought you had pulled them apart, just scorched, frayed or melted, which i thought was bad enough. plastic cases [cheddite i think]

[London Best]

37 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Paper or plastic cases?

Just case mouth burning 

or head separating as well? 

Plastic cases. No head separation. Paper cases work fine.

[Old farrier]

41 minutes ago, islandgun said:

Not separating,  jeez !  I thought you had pulled them apart, just scorched, frayed or melted, which i thought was bad enough. plastic cases [cheddite i think]

That was the problem the heads came off and left the plastic tube in the gun 

not very handy on a game day 🙄

[Minky]

8 hours ago, Old farrier said:

Many thanks 

I’d be interested to know your thoughts on the cause of this problem I encountered with a batch of cartridges 

 

1 hour ago, London Best said:

 My mate gets it in a 16 bore with crimped cases.

It is a 2 1/2 inch gun.  

If he uses 65 mm cases it is fine.

If he uses 67 mm cases, supposedly good for 2 1/2 inch chambers, it tears the end.

His problem appears to be very abrupt forcing cones.

 

57 minutes ago, islandgun said:

Not separating,  jeez !  I thought you had pulled them apart, just scorched, frayed or melted, which i thought was bad enough. plastic cases [cheddite i think]

I've just seen this thread and posts.  Previously I have posted pictures on a thread a few months ago.  I was on a simulated driven clay shoot.  At Lunchtime one of the guns commented about how cases were melting , splitting and tearing in his 20 bore..!!!.???  No one there had seen anything like it.  I have shot for many years and have/use all sorts of guns and calibers and I've never encountered anything like it.  Needless to say when you are in the height of a good drive you don't start looking at the spent cartridges.  At the end of the drive I had a rumage through the pile of my ejacted cartridges and noticed that quite a few had the melted and ripped cases.  That day I was I was using my AyA #2 RA. In 28guage.  I reload my cartridges and haven't had problems like this before.  I found that the cartridges That displayed this problem  were  from differing case manufacturers. I will find the pictures and  add the images on this thread later.

[Gas seal]

A cartridge loaded with the same components a rto will give the lower pressure eight point crimp more pressure six point crimp higher again. A bulging crimp ie using larger size pellets will be the highest pressure. The cartridges Old farrier fired will be Cheddite cases in 10gauge they are not as strong as the US cases. It could be the rto getting to hot when the cartridges were made, the felt wads could be a bit small, I’ve seen this with 10gauge felt and sp10 wads when opened the power had passed the seal some in the wad (cavity) some had power in the shot. If the empty case is bulging were the wad would have been the gas has passed the seal. I’ve loaded steel pellets in.410 and some cases had melted ends but none split or damaged the cases. I would open one cutting below the crimp and above the wad . Check the crimp, see if the wad is a tight fit look at the condition of the case.