Brexit again

[12gauge82]

12 minutes ago, oowee said:

To be fair this is a view older people have often voiced either of the country they live in or of the youth of today. I come back to the words of the CBI. The best guarantor of Brexit is an economy that grows, it's biggest risk is one that doesn't. 

We are dropping behind the larger economies of Europe and something drastic needs to happen. The question we face is where is change going to come from. It's unlikely to be either of the main parties.

Maybe it comes from a break up of the Union (envisaged by Brexit) allowing what's left to focus on the task at hand. Or maybe it comes from some sort of trade alignment. 

We started dropping behind larger EU economy's while we were in the EU, but worse, unless you worked in the finance sector or some other high paided job, most of the UK economy revolved around the services sector which is predominantly low paid, low skilled work, which is partly why immigration was wanted by government and big buisness, endless supply of cheap foreign labour to keep the economy growing and suppress wages, that's why growth figures alone isn't the most important marker for the majority, sure high growth is good for government and their taxes, or large companies for their profits, but the UK economy has been awful for the working masses, real term wage cuts for employees while ceos got 30% richer, public services failing under the strain of population growth, while the rich and political classes pay for private medical care. All this under EU membership and in fact is the reason our economy is as it is. The jobs sectors were divided up and while the likes of Germany got high end engineering creating well paid employment, of France got Farming were they were paid via UK taxes to under cut UK farming, we were given the services sector and financial. 

[Gordon R]

When Russia invaded Ukraine, this was blamed for shortages and rising prices. Suddenly, it's all down to Brexit. I wish Remainers would make up their mind. 🙂

[enfieldspares]

22 hours ago, Weihrauch17 said:

Johnson hasn't delivered Brexit ask our Fishermen and women and NI.   He was never pro Brexit and used it as a tool.  Record immigration levels post Brexit shows the utter contempt he holds for the British public. 

This. Always was. What's in it for Boris was all Brexit was to him.

[Rewulf]

22 hours ago, oowee said:

This I understand minus the 30bn annual loss  (so far) to the economy.

How can you quantify this ?
We had covid straight after we 'officially' came out, how much of this loss is down to the facts of Brexit, or the associated difficulties created by our disgruntled EU 'friends' ?

21 hours ago, oowee said:

Looking at the 10% inflation and the looming winter of strikes and critical labour shortage in key services suggests to me we need to have some sort of visa for workers scheme. 

Our 10 % inflation doesnt look bad when you look at some EU countries, Germany , the powerhouse of the EU is running at 11.5 %, others are much higher, is that Brexits fault too ?
And as far as strikes and labour shortages, nearly every service industry is bandwaggoning for more money now , even the NHS are going on strike, is that down to Brexit ?
Or the 6 million applications for EU citizens to stay ? If theyve all gone home , who are these people ? What happened to the 'Voice of the 3 million' ? They seem to have had no difficulty in staying, and doubled in size 

And whats this 'Visas for work scheme' ? 
We already have one.

[enfieldspares]

20 hours ago, Vince Green said:

EU citizens can still come and work in this country. They are not banned, they just have to apply for a job and get a permit. What they can't do is come over and work cash in hand

 

Yeah right? Been down the A47 to Norfolk recently? One EU ID Card  (Settlement Scheme) with two or three working off it at three different farms?

Edited November 22, 2022 by enfieldspares

[Rewulf]

7 hours ago, Gordon R said:

When Russia invaded Ukraine, this was blamed for shortages and rising prices. Suddenly, it's all down to Brexit. I wish Remainers would make up their mind. 🙂

Youre forgetting , Russia made Brexit happen , so its Russias fault whatever 

[enfieldspares]

When the time comes, the current lecture engagements dry up, wait and see. Wait and see.

Maybe five years and it'll be "Boris Johnson: My Brexit Mistake. Why I should have voted Remain".

At £50,000 an hour coming to a fund raising dinner somewhere near you.

Snake oil salesman was all he ever was. But the mugs were impressed as he'd been to Eton.

There were some who wanted Brexit for genuine reasons. Out of wishing our country what they believed was truly a better choice.

Johnson wanted it so as to manoeuvre himself into power against Cameron in a future post-Remain result Tory leadership contest if the Tories had then lost the General Election.

 

 

Edited November 22, 2022 by enfieldspares

[oowee]

13 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

How can you quantify this ?
We had covid straight after we 'officially' came out, how much of this loss is down to the facts of Brexit, or the associated difficulties created by our disgruntled EU 'friends' ?

Our 10 % inflation doesnt look bad when you look at some EU countries, Germany , the powerhouse of the EU is running at 11.5 %, others are much higher, is that Brexits fault too ?
And as far as strikes and labour shortages, nearly every service industry is bandwaggoning for more money now , even the NHS are going on strike, is that down to Brexit ?
Or the 6 million applications for EU citizens to stay ? If theyve all gone home , who are these people ? What happened to the 'Voice of the 3 million' ? They seem to have had no difficulty in staying, and doubled in size 

And whats this 'Visas for work scheme' ? 
We already have one.

All of it according to OBR. 

Or the OECD;- The UK will contract by more than any other nation in the G7 group next year, it said. Of the wider group of G20 countries, only Russia, which is subject to economic sanctions, is predicted to fare worse than the UK.

I guess we dont believe the analysis same as Trump does not believe the election result. 

We can blame everyone else of course we can.

8 hours ago, Gordon R said:

When Russia invaded Ukraine, this was blamed for shortages and rising prices. Suddenly, it's all down to Brexit. I wish Remainers would make up their mind. 🙂

I wish Brexiteers would make up their mind about believing in British sovereignty. (Owen Patterson ECHR). 

8 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

We started dropping behind larger EU economy's while we were in the EU, but worse, unless you worked in the finance sector or some other high paided job, most of the UK economy revolved around the services sector which is predominantly low paid, low skilled work, which is partly why immigration was wanted by government and big buisness, endless supply of cheap foreign labour to keep the economy growing and suppress wages, that's why growth figures alone isn't the most important marker for the majority, sure high growth is good for government and their taxes, or large companies for their profits, but the UK economy has been awful for the working masses, real term wage cuts for employees while ceos got 30% richer, public services failing under the strain of population growth, while the rich and political classes pay for private medical care. All this under EU membership and in fact is the reason our economy is as it is. The jobs sectors were divided up and while the likes of Germany got high end engineering creating well paid employment, of France got Farming were they were paid via UK taxes to under cut UK farming, we were given the services sector and financial. 

The UK economy is facing real world competition. The EU provided some shelter with it's protectionist policies. Brexit removed that umbrella. We still rely on these policies but a bonfire is planned. Real wages must fall much further and standards will need to be refocused to compete. All this stuff was known in advance but some struggle to hear. 

Edited November 22, 2022 by oowee

[12gauge82]

5 minutes ago, oowee said:

 

The UK economy is facing real world competition. The EU provided some shelter with it's protectionist policies. Brexit removed that umbrella. We still rely on these policies but a bonfire is planned. Real wages must fall much further and standards will need to be refocused to compete. All this stuff was known in advance but some struggle to hear. 

That's your opinion, all the potential pitfalls you've mentioned could also equally become advantages. 

Be honest, name a single positive for the UK that has come out of brexit? 

[Gordon R]

Quote

I wish Brexiteers would make up their mind about believing in British sovereignty. (Owen Patterson ECHR). 

First time I have heard of this muppet. 

 

[udderlyoffroad]

This thread will run and run as neither side will give any quarter.

To leavers, the main benefit of leaving is not being in the EU.  They  perceive its pernicious desire to regulate every aspect of our lives as completely undemocratic, and the economic cost of leaving is almost a moot point

To Remainers, the main problem with leaving is not being in the EU….

Anyway, can we all at least agree that the idea of a low-tax, open-for-business country is the exact opposite of what the technocrats in Downing street are currently implementing?

I’ve previously said on here that my work within the EU hasn’t really been impacted.  To others, apparently it’s been disastrous. Though I’m afraid my sympathy for one poster evaporated when he claimed he’s resorted to taking flights a day earlier because of passport queues (?), and was perceived to be some kind of second-class citizen within his organisation because he was British.
 

[oowee]

27 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

That's your opinion, all the potential pitfalls you've mentioned could also equally become advantages. 

Be honest, name a single positive for the UK that has come out of brexit? 

They could become advantages in a competitive sense but from a social perspective I don't think any of us are prepared for the drop in living standards. 

Positives. That's a good question 🙂.

I think that it asks the UK to begin to identify where it sits in the world hierarchy.

The EU still provides some protection as they set a market agenda that we will be obliged to follow. The govt of whatever persuasion will have to make those alignment decisions in a more transparent way rather than hide behind the EU. 

Ultimately we will have to rejoin but in doing so the public will be aligned in favour. I am thinking either a structural rethink at EU level on alignment issues presenting a simpler economic structure for us to plug into. Or an IMF bailout that requires us to rejoin.  

I think also at a personal level there is a neat trick to be done to escape the UK SIPP rules using a European passport. 

15 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

 

To Remainers, the main problem with leaving is not being in the EU….

 

I have no problem not being in the EU (setting aside all of the personal barriers it presents) but if we are out we need a plan of action as to what we are going to do and how we are going to do it.

Edited November 22, 2022 by oowee

[Boybrit]

I have given up caring, it is now what it is and the UK will sink or swim according to many uncontrollable factors that we have not yet seen, we stopped being able to dictate to more than half the world when they all gained independence up till the 1960s and now this island is a small world player with little manufacturing and even less agri land being available by the week and too much uncontrolled immigration by benefit chancers. It don't look too good for the UK for the future with or without the EU IMO. My apprenticeship from 1965-1970 was at the end of the golden age looking back now.

[udderlyoffroad]

14 minutes ago, oowee said:

I am thinking either a structural rethink at EU level on alignment issues presenting a simpler economic structure for us to plug into.  

If by that you mean...well the EU stops its federalist nonsense and goes back to being an actual trading bloc, well sign me up.

But we both know it won't.  Ever closer economic and political union is the stated aim, including an army. 

Worth mentioning at this point that for all the talk of a 'Swiss model', the EU hates it, because there is a perception of having cake and eating it.

[oowee]

1 minute ago, udderlyoffroad said:

If by that you mean...well the EU stops its federalist nonsense and goes back to being an actual trading bloc, well sign me up.

But we both know it won't.  Ever closer economic and political union is the stated aim, including an army. 

Worth mentioning at this point that for all the talk of a 'Swiss model', the EU hates it, because there is a perception of having cake and eating it.

The EU is not a thing and has no single position, its an institution that is constantly changing and will adapt over time. There are some seismic challenges that it has yet to face, climate challenge, Euro currency management, migration. Any one of which could pose a existential threat to the centralist model which might present that trading bloc opening. 

[12gauge82]

42 minutes ago, oowee said:

They could become advantages in a competitive sense but from a social perspective I don't think any of us are prepared for the drop in living standards. 

Positives. That's a good question 🙂.

I think that it asks the UK to begin to identify where it sits in the world hierarchy.

The EU still provides some protection as they set a market agenda that we will be obliged to follow. The govt of whatever persuasion will have to make those alignment decisions in a more transparent way rather than hide behind the EU. 

Ultimately we will have to rejoin but in doing so the public will be aligned in favour. I am thinking either a structural rethink at EU level on alignment issues presenting a simpler economic structure for us to plug into. Or an IMF bailout that requires us to rejoin.  

I think also at a personal level there is a neat trick to be done to escape the UK SIPP rules using a European passport. 

I have no problem not being in the EU (setting aside all of the personal barriers it presents) but if we are out we need a plan of action as to what we are going to do and how we are going to do it.

Lets put aside I disagree with most of that, what difference does it make? We're already out and rejoining now, especially under the new terms they'd make us sign up to, would be more damaging than any brexit deal. It's all water under the bridge. 

[udderlyoffroad]

9 minutes ago, oowee said:

The EU is not a thing and has no single position,

🤣 oh do come off it...And even if that were true, hardly helps your argument.

Kissinger once said "If I want to pick up the phone and call Europe, who do I speak to?"

Well since his time, the commission has got its feet firmly under the table at, for instance, the G20, with 'President' Von der Leyen in attendance representing the EU*.  Of course, everybody was too polite to point out that presidents are usually elected by their people....

14 minutes ago, oowee said:

There are some seismic challenges that it has yet to face, climate challenge, Euro currency management, migration

You missed out the people in its member states electing Eurosceptic parties and attempting to change the EU's direction of travel...of course they tend to get 'punished' (again, a certain comissioner's words) rather than be allowed to enact real change.

 

*Note, not the commission.  The EU.

[Scully]

4 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

🤣 oh do come off it...And even if that were true, hardly helps your argument.

Kissinger once said "If I want to pick up the phone and call Europe, who do I speak to?"

Well since his time, the commission has got its feet firmly under the table at, for instance, the G20, with 'President' Von der Leyen in attendance representing the EU*.  Of course, everybody was too polite to point out that presidents are usually elected by their people....

You missed out the people in its member states electing Eurosceptic parties and attempting to change the EU's direction of travel...of course they tend to get 'punished' (again, a certain comissioner's words) rather than be allowed to enact real change.

 

*Note, not the commission.  The EU.

Excellent post. Sums up everything I detest of that totally undemocratic pseudo government. 

[oowee]

23 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Lets put aside I disagree with most of that, what difference does it make? We're already out and rejoining now, especially under the new terms they'd make us sign up to, would be more damaging than any brexit deal. It's all water under the bridge. 

You asked for my opinion and that's it. Time will give us all the answer. 

Its a bit like the emperors new clothes.

19 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

🤣 oh do come off it...And even if that were true, hardly helps your argument.

Kissinger once said "If I want to pick up the phone and call Europe, who do I speak to?"

 

This is exactly my point there is no single entity it can't have life of its own. Things come and go. leaders change, thinking changes.

There may well be an inevitability for ever closer union but if that is true you have to ask what is the driver. Its certainly not because everyone wants it. Reaction to global threats Russia, China, Climate, mass exodus of populations, managing diminishing resources will require concerted and unified cross border action. However loud we protest we are only geographically an island. 

Edited November 22, 2022 by oowee

[Vince Green]

1 hour ago, enfieldspares said:

Yeah right? Been down the A47 to Norfolk recently? One EU ID Card  (Settlement Scheme) with two or three working off it at three different farms?

Yes and the same thing happens in London with the minicab drivers and Uber cab drivers. Multiple people working off one licence.

That is just a matter of poor enforcement by our police and border force. 

[12gauge82]

29 minutes ago, oowee said:

You asked for my opinion and that's it. Time will give us all the answer. 

 

You haven't answered my question, name a positive to the UK of Brexit? 

[oowee]

2 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

You haven't answered my question, name a positive to the UK of Brexit? 

I have two points. 

Positives. That's a good question 🙂.

I think that it asks the UK to begin to identify where it sits in the world hierarchy.

The EU still provides some protection as they set a market agenda that we will be obliged to follow. The govt of whatever persuasion will have to make those alignment decisions in a more transparent way rather than hide behind the EU. 

[12gauge82]

20 minutes ago, oowee said:

I have two points. 

Positives. That's a good question 🙂.

I think that it asks the UK to begin to identify where it sits in the world hierarchy.

The EU still provides some protection as they set a market agenda that we will be obliged to follow. The govt of whatever persuasion will have to make those alignment decisions in a more transparent way rather than hide behind the EU. 

Appoliges, so you did 👍

[Penelope]

17 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Youre forgetting , Russia made Brexit happen , so its Russias fault whatever 

So your fault, by proxy, as you are Vlad's 'Man in Notts'.

[Rewulf]

37 minutes ago, Penelope said:

So your fault, by proxy, as you are Vlad's 'Man in Notts'.

Its a little known fact , that Nigel Farage is in fact Vlad Putin (dont ask how I know , or youll never trust a house door kno b  again )
He uses an elaborate face mask to conceal his true self......
So anyone who supported Farage , or indeed voted Brexit, is a Russkie collaborator !
Dont believe me  ? When have you ever seen them in the same room together ?