Newbie to this Posted January 26, 2023 Report Share Posted January 26, 2023 (edited) On 25/01/2023 at 12:27, ditchman said: i still think tanks are a waste of time Welsh1 has pretty much covered it. I've see some of the footage of the tank battles in Ukraine, and a solo Challenger would have dominated the battle with the Russian armour. My biggest worry is the Russians capturing a Challenger or Abrahams and reverse engineering their own. Perhaps, when it comes to western military tech, our government/military advisors, just aren't worried if this happens, as we can easily counter them 🤷♂️ Edited January 26, 2023 by Newbie to this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted January 26, 2023 Report Share Posted January 26, 2023 2 hours ago, Newbie to this said: . My biggest worry is the Russians capturing a Challenger or Abrahams and reverse engineering their own. That's why I dont think for one moment the Ukrainians will be given all the most up to date operating systems. If any? Besides it would take a long time to train the crews on how to use all the systems to their full potential Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted January 26, 2023 Report Share Posted January 26, 2023 2 hours ago, Newbie to this said: Welsh1 has pretty much covered it. I've see some of the footage of the tank battles in Ukraine, and a solo Challenger would have dominated the battle with the Russian armour. My biggest worry is the Russians capturing a Challenger or Abrahams and reverse engineering their own. Perhaps, when it comes to western military tech, our government/military advisors, just aren't worried if this happens, as we can easily counter them 🤷♂️ We are seeing on the battlefield that effective use of a system is vastly different from creating one. Some of the Russian gear is in theory a match for much of what we have in the west. What is missing is training, organisational structures, freedom of expression to criticse, ability to control corruption, and clarity of objective. The top down autocratic structure further holds them back. It would not be a far stretch of the imagination to put the Chinese military in the same boat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonepark Posted January 26, 2023 Report Share Posted January 26, 2023 23 minutes ago, oowee said: What is missing is training, organisational structures, freedom of expression to criticse, ability to control corruption, and clarity of objective. The top down autocratic structure further holds them back. And Ukraine is exactly in the same boat and now being asked to learn to use Western weapon systems and it's going to be pitiful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted January 26, 2023 Report Share Posted January 26, 2023 4 minutes ago, Stonepark said: And Ukraine is exactly in the same boat and now being asked to learn to use Western weapon systems and it's going to be pitiful. What makes you think they haven't already been learning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchman Posted January 26, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2023 im still interested / facinated as to how these tanks will be used.....i cant see any western desert /Kirsk slugathon's... time will tell think they might be used to punch a couple of holes into the main supply route of Russian occupied land...which will isolate the agressor into 3....2 of which wont be supplied........... very easy for me to say this from the comfort of my arm chair.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted January 26, 2023 Report Share Posted January 26, 2023 7 minutes ago, welsh1 said: What makes you think they haven't already been learning. My nephew is on the tank simulators with the fussiliers. 13 minutes ago, Stonepark said: And Ukraine is exactly in the same boat and now being asked to learn to use Western weapon systems and it's going to be pitiful. Many wrote them off at the start. I would back them in a fight. My thoughts are how to hold them back when they have long range rockets and aircraft, russia is back in its borders and the russian rockets keep coming in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted January 26, 2023 Report Share Posted January 26, 2023 Just now, oowee said: My nephew is on the tank simulators with the fussiliers. Many wrote them off at the start. I would back them in a fight. My thoughts are how to hold them back when they have long range rockets and aircraft, russia is back in its borders and the russian rockets keep coming in. My Son is an armourer for the challenger weapon systems, one of the courses he was supposed to go on has been delayed because his place has been taken along with others, the peoplewho are on those courses are not British. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaymo Posted January 26, 2023 Report Share Posted January 26, 2023 37 minutes ago, welsh1 said: What makes you think they haven't already been learning. 👍🏻😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted January 26, 2023 Report Share Posted January 26, 2023 It also makes me think, why use tanks if the enemy has many more. However how many Russian tanks are actively available and how many are you willing to use (lose) before you become vulnerable yourself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted January 26, 2023 Report Share Posted January 26, 2023 15 minutes ago, henry d said: It also makes me think, why use tanks if the enemy has many more. However how many Russian tanks are actively available and how many are you willing to use (lose) before you become vulnerable yourself? One good modern battle tank is capable of seeing off many older tanks. "180 Challenger tanks were deployed during the Gulf War and proved their reliability in desert conditions. The Challengers advanced nearly 350 km in 97 hours, destroying a total of 300 Iraqi armoured vehicles (including one tank at a range of 5 km) for no loss." Part of russias problem is renewing kit and getting the latest technology, they are struggling becaue of the restrictions placed by other coulntries.,when you have large loses, replacement kit may be available, trained people may not, How much loss can russia sustain before the coffers are dry and putin falls down the stairs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted January 26, 2023 Report Share Posted January 26, 2023 Good thread and some good insight from people in the know / with experience 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted January 27, 2023 Report Share Posted January 27, 2023 I'm particularly impressed with the videos I've seen of shall we say 'stabilised on target' tank barrels whilst moving over variable terrain. I'm sure their is a name for that ability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchman Posted January 27, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2023 wonder if the challenger #2 tanks will be up rated to the challeger #3 smootbore barrell... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted January 27, 2023 Report Share Posted January 27, 2023 1 hour ago, ditchman said: wonder if the challenger #2 tanks will be up rated to the challeger #3 smootbore barrell... I wouldn't think so as the whole turret and asociated systems have to be replaced, and the british army are only uprading part of the current challenger two's,(148 out of approx 220) . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonepark Posted January 27, 2023 Report Share Posted January 27, 2023 19 hours ago, oowee said: Many wrote them off at the start. I would back them in a fight. Wars are about logistics more than individual attack or defence. The only reason Ukraine was not broken last summer is the huge quantity of free weapons being given to them by the USA, UK and EU, however the current immediate pleading for tanks is to replace the ones that have been destroyed, but 100 to 200 tanks from the West to not going to replace the thousands that Russia has destroyed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted January 27, 2023 Report Share Posted January 27, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Stonepark said: Wars are about logistics more than individual attack or defence. The only reason Ukraine was not broken last summer is the huge quantity of free weapons being given to them by the USA, UK and EU, however the current immediate pleading for tanks is to replace the ones that have been destroyed, but 100 to 200 tanks from the West to not going to replace the thousands that Russia has destroyed. 😁 Time will tell. Given Ukraine only had 982 tanks to start with I doubt Ukraine has lost thousands. Edited January 27, 2023 by oowee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted January 27, 2023 Report Share Posted January 27, 2023 3 hours ago, Stonepark said: Wars are about logistics more than individual attack or defence. The only reason Ukraine was not broken last summer is the huge quantity of free weapons being given to them by the USA, UK and EU, however the current immediate pleading for tanks is to replace the ones that have been destroyed, but 100 to 200 tanks from the West to not going to replace the thousands that Russia has destroyed. You also forgot to mention how the Russian advance stalled due to lack of logistics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rem260 Posted January 27, 2023 Report Share Posted January 27, 2023 1 hour ago, henry d said: You also forgot to mention how the Russian advance stalled due to lack of logistics. Talk to any logistician and they will tell you they are the most important link in the chain once the shooting starts. No point in having tanks if you can't supply or repair them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchman Posted January 27, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2023 25 minutes ago, Rem260 said: Talk to any logistician and they will tell you they are the most important link in the chain once the shooting starts. No point in having tanks if you can't supply or repair them. Wellington was the first to do something to rectify this problem.......instead of relying on heavy slow moving wagons pulled by oxen,,,,he asked for a lightweight ...sprung 2 wheeled jig to be designed......pulled by one horse.....these were fastmoving...they didnt get stuck...and goods started to arrive quickly and undamaged.....he had sorted the supply line problem..............i think there is a well know painting in the war musemn of the supply jig in action....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amateur Posted January 27, 2023 Report Share Posted January 27, 2023 1 hour ago, ditchman said: Wellington was the first to do something to rectify this problem.......instead of relying on heavy slow moving wagons pulled by oxen,,,,he asked for a lightweight ...sprung 2 wheeled jig to be designed......pulled by one horse.....these were fastmoving...they didnt get stuck...and goods started to arrive quickly and undamaged.....he had sorted the supply line problem..............i think there is a well know painting in the war musemn of the supply jig in action....... Were you there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchman Posted January 27, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2023 24 minutes ago, amateur said: Were you there? im really sorry my head is totally full of useless information........i will try better next time.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amateur Posted January 27, 2023 Report Share Posted January 27, 2023 1 hour ago, ditchman said: im really sorry my head is totally full of useless information........i will try better next time.. I'm sorry, I had assumed that you were an onlooker 😆 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchman Posted January 27, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, amateur said: I'm sorry, I had assumed that you were an onlooker 😆 its the way i write them............did you find that interesting tho'...the advent of military logistics ? Edited January 27, 2023 by ditchman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted January 28, 2023 Report Share Posted January 28, 2023 14 hours ago, ditchman said: im really sorry my head is totally full of useless information........i will try better next time.. I think he was applying ageist humor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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