TSS Steel Duplex loads

[flippermaj]

I am toying with the idea of trying to load some TSS Steel duplex loads for the 12 bore for geese.  

From what I have found on the internet so far you load with standard steel data and then swap out what ever % of steel shot you want and replace with TSS.

Typically folk seem to do 1 OZ loads with 3/4 OZ steel and 1/4 OZ of TSS and usually a felt packer to get the column height right.  Is it that simple?

Does anyone have any experience of this and any advice?

Cheers

Mark

 

[rbrowning2]

why bother is their any proven advantage in doing so? would you not have large light steel shot slowing down quickly and very small heavy TSS shot slowing down very much slower than the steel, so the shot string would be exaggerated would it not? Assuming the faster high energy TSS hits target first what benefit is the steel shot when (if) it arrives on target?

Why not just shoot 1/2 oz of size 10 TSS shot from a .410 or 28ga. 

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by rbrowning2

[Smokersmith]

I can’t see any advantage of doing this.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

37 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

I can’t see any advantage of doing this.

No, not me either!

[flippermaj]

Apparently the duplex loads work very well.  The steel shot doesn’t seem to be anything more than a filler?  I don’t have a 410 or 28 bore.  I was hoping to get a decent load for my 70 mm chambered SXS with low recoil.  Even if you put 1/2 oz of TSS in a 12 bore wad there is still a heck of a lot of space to fill up to get the column height right for finishing.   
 

[neutron619]

11 hours ago, flippermaj said:

The steel shot doesn’t seem to be anything more than a filler?

 

Could be. Most powders need a certain pressure to burn properly. If there isn't enough mass in front of the powder the pressure doesn't rise far enough to match the powder spec and the cartridge behaves like a squib. But here you're dealing with very hard shot needing slow powder and moderate acceleration, so faster powder wouldn't be an option.

[Bernard]

On 26/01/2023 at 20:50, flippermaj said:

Apparently the duplex loads work very well.  The steel shot doesn’t seem to be anything more than a filler?  I don’t have a 410 or 28 bore.  I was hoping to get a decent load for my 70 mm chambered SXS with low recoil.  Even if you put 1/2 oz of TSS in a 12 bore wad there is still a heck of a lot of space to fill up to get the column height right for finishing.   
 

I do this in my 70mm chambered Remington 1100. It has a 30 inch barrel with a fixed 1/4 choke. I duplex B Steel or sometimes 2s with TSS7 or 7.5 on the bottom with 492 grain total payload (I split it 137 grains TSS and 355 grains steel). It is extremely effective on grey geese and far exceeds the range capabilities of just the B Steel.
 

It is accepted practice when duplexing that you can start with any reasonable pressure steel load, remove steel and replace with TSS. Shorter shot column will require fillers under the shot. Combined shorter column and fillers will reduce pressure and speed.  To avoid the fillers I tend to use the next size down wad of the same series. 137TSS with 355Steel fits nicely in a BP28 vs the BP32 for the original 100% steel data.

When I use that mix it gives me 132 pellets total including 67TSS #7.5s. The TSS is a 100% pattern at 40 yards still and the steel is spreading like a normal 1/4 choke pattern. I end up with a hard hitting steel pattern that is useable in close and the tss holds the extra pattern and killing power out to 55 ish. If I want further then I up the TSS and use a BP24.

[flippermaj]

Excellent information. Thank you

 

[Bernard]

i also have tested duplex data in 70mm 12 ga using Alliant steel and Hodgdon Longshot. Loads are 464-492 grains total in federal and Rio cases. I know those powders are a nightmare to get hold of and will likely remain so going forward. If you want some specific numbers pm me and I’ll drop them to you.
 

Out of interest, I don’t use them. I just use steel data as outlined in my previous post.

[Gas seal]

Hi duplex tss and steel , the steel can be used  as a filler for a tss load  ,or tss with a steel load for a better pattern. I loaded 37grams of steel pellets and 7grams of tss in 12gauge . This gave a better pattern than 42grams of steel. I loaded steel, tss duplex with steel , and just tss  in 28gauge with different types of wads . I put the tss at the bottom of the wad with duplex loads. When duplex loads are mentioned shooters think of the duplex lead loads with different size of pellets in the cartridges. 

[Old farrier]

15 minutes ago, Gas seal said:

Hi duplex tss and steel , the steel can be used  as a filler for a tss load  ,or tss with a steel load for a better pattern. I loaded 37grams of steel pellets and 7grams of tss in 12gauge . This gave a better pattern than 42grams of steel. I loaded steel, tss duplex with steel , and just tss  in 28gauge with different types of wads . I put the tss at the bottom of the wad with duplex loads. When duplex loads are mentioned shooters think of the duplex lead loads with different size of pellets in the cartridges. 

Do you think this would work for the 3 inch 410 possibly avoids chamber scoring that has been mentioned by using just tss in the shorter case 

value your opinion 

of 

[Stonepark]

39 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Do you think this would work for the 3 inch 410 possibly avoids chamber scoring that has been mentioned by using just tss in the shorter case 

value your opinion 

of 

For TSS in 410, I would only use cartridges of the same length as the chamber and add in any required fillers to make up the space behind the wad.

E.g. 20g TSS no 9 or no 7 will fill a cutdown TPS wad, and only require an over powder Card to make up the difference in a 76mm case.

Cutting the wad down, puts the load within the thicker plastic walls of the wad, rather than putting filler within the wad and having the load up front where the plastic is thinest and most vulnerable to penetration.

[Old farrier]

3 hours ago, Stonepark said:

For TSS in 410, I would only use cartridges of the same length as the chamber and add in any required fillers to make up the space behind the wad.

E.g. 20g TSS no 9 or no 7 will fill a cutdown TPS wad, and only require an over powder Card to make up the difference in a 76mm case.

Cutting the wad down, puts the load within the thicker plastic walls of the wad, rather than putting filler within the wad and having the load up front where the plastic is thinest and most vulnerable to penetration.

Many thanks I’ll give it a try when I’m able to get the components 🙄

im nearly out of h110 

is it worth trying some aliant steel (older version) or am I treading on dangerous ground?

[Smokersmith]

Nice to see how this has developed … still have a tub or two of Longshot so might give it a try!!

[Stonepark]

Alliant Steel is a bit high pressure for the 410.

I am aware of a couple of Alliant steel load's in published data but the lead load is very hot and the steel shot load not far behind

 

Lead Shot

3 inch Fio hull, Fio616, 11gr Steel, TPS wad, 14g or 1\2oz lead shot giving 12800psi and 1350ft\sec, crimped

 

Steel shot

3 inch Cheddite hull, ched209, 10.5gr to 11.5gr steel, TPS wad 150gr steel shot, giving 11,000 to 11,800psi and 1415ft\sec to 1500ft\sec, crimped. The 10.5gr load may need an overshot Card as a spacer.

As an alternative, 3inch Fio hull with fio616, 17gr of H110, TPS wad and 150gr steel shot gives a much more reasonable 1325ft\sec and 7,700psi.

[Old farrier]

20 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

Alliant Steel is a bit high pressure for the 410.

I am aware of a couple of Alliant steel load's in published data but the lead load is very hot and the steel shot load not far behind

 

Lead Shot

3 inch Fio hull, Fio616, 11gr Steel, TPS wad, 14g or 1\2oz lead shot giving 12800psi and 1350ft\sec, crimped

 

Steel shot

3 inch Cheddite hull, ched209, 10.5gr to 11.5gr steel, TPS wad 150gr steel shot, giving 11,000 to 11,800psi and 1415ft\sec to 1500ft\sec, crimped. The 10.5gr load may need an overshot Card as a spacer.

As an alternative, 3inch Fio hull with fio616, 17gr of H110, TPS wad and 150gr steel shot gives a much more reasonable 1325ft\sec and 7,700psi.

Many thanks for the advice I’m using a similar H110 load I’ll see if I can get some more info and keep the aliant steel for the 12 

many thanks 

of 

[Gas seal]

Hi damage can be to the forcing cones with tss. As stone park said to use a cartridge to suit the chamber length in any gauge. I loaded.410 with with blue dot, Alliant  steel and csb0 powders, TPS wad and 150grains of steel 7shot .  I never tried to load steel shot with a different type of wad in 410. There is data on 410 tss , it’s the TPS wads that are hard to find. I had some .410 TPS wads and components ,I recently gave them the a member on this site I don’t know if he loaded them. I have never had any problems with tss it’s never penetrate any wad l have used.

[holloway]

38 minutes ago, Gas seal said:

Hi damage can be to the forcing cones with tss. As stone park said to use a cartridge to suit the chamber length in any gauge. I loaded.410 with with blue dot, Alliant  steel and csb0 powders, TPS wad and 150grains of steel 7shot .  I never tried to load steel shot with a different type of wad in 410. There is data on 410 tss , it’s the TPS wads that are hard to find. I had some .410 TPS wads and components ,I recently gave them the a member on this site I don’t know if he loaded them. I have never had any problems with tss it’s never penetrate any wad l have used.

Hi Gas seal I did use your wads to load some steel shot but haven’t fired them yet I loaded up some Bismuth as well so they got used first.

[Gas seal]

Hi Holloway it’s not the weather for me to be testing cartridges. I have a few to test, l might try some bismuth in the.410 . The TPS wads in .410 and 28 are hard to find at the moment. Good luck with your reloading.

[holloway]

1 hour ago, Gas seal said:

Hi Holloway it’s not the weather for me to be testing cartridges. I have a few to test, l might try some bismuth in the.410 . The TPS wads in .410 and 28 are hard to find at the moment. Good luck with your reloading.

Good luck with the 410 bismuth ,I can pass on a load I was given on the forum if you like It seems to work quite well.

[B B]

On 26/01/2023 at 20:50, flippermaj said:

Apparently the duplex loads work very well.  The steel shot doesn’t seem to be anything more than a filler?  I don’t have a 410 or 28 bore.  I was hoping to get a decent load for my 70 mm chambered SXS with low recoil.  Even if you put 1/2 oz of TSS in a 12 bore wad there is still a heck of a lot of space to fill up to get the column height right for finishing.   
 

The loosing load space idea is all well and good, but its not like steel is weightless its robbing the load of the potentially more lethal pellets.

OK you can not load all the available space with TSS so why bother just run a lower density version like 15 v or 13 or perhaps bismuth.

 Its counter productive at least the filler or packers are just space takers not taking payload potential.

  I f its to try and save money i think again its counter productive, and personalty would rather have the TSS used in TSS loads not being used in Duplex loads of some what dubious credibility if i may say so.

[Bernard]

On 25/02/2023 at 16:47, B B said:

The loosing load space idea is all well and good, but its not like steel is weightless its robbing the load of the potentially more lethal pellets.

OK you can not load all the available space with TSS so why bother just run a lower density version like 15 v or 13 or perhaps bismuth.

 Its counter productive at least the filler or packers are just space takers not taking payload potential.

  I f its to try and save money i think again its counter productive, and personalty would rather have the TSS used in TSS loads not being used in Duplex loads of some what dubious credibility if i may say so.

One of the earliest adopters and strongest proponents of "spiked" 12 bore steel loads and duplex steel/tss was Hal Abbott aka HawGlips.  I can see you're recommending his knowledge in the 28Ga TSS Duplex thread.  He recognised that straight TSS in the 12, and really in anything other than a .410 is probably overdoing it unless you're taking low numbers of shots at long range, like they do turkey hunting in the states or I suppose if you were shooting foxes after a potential lead ban over here.

 

If you're going to say that it's not cost effective then the numbers don't really add up either.  Lets say that I want my 2 3/4" 12 Bore to match a 3.5 inch gun shooting 42 grams #B steel - just so we can run some numbers:

42 grams of #B Steel at 1400fps is 126 pellets giving 1.77 inches of 20% ballistic gelatine penetration at 50 yards

28 grams of #3(US) Bismuth is 123 pellets giving 1.8 inches at 50 yards at a cost of £1.37 (based on £49/Kg)

24 grams of 3mm CGR Powershot gives 126 pellets giving 2.5 inches at 50 yards at a cost of £1.73 (based on £72/Kg) - they don't have a more comparable shot size.  Number 6 would be the closest at 2.8mm

14 grams of TSS #8 gives 126 pellets pushing 2.59 inches at 50 yards at a cost of £1.06 (based on 76/kg) - this is a difficult payoad to put together in 12 bore.

Duplex: 92 grains of #8TSS plus 400 grains of #B Steel gives 129 pellets that meet or exceed the original need at a cost of £0.55.

 

If you want the most cost effective way to get your calibre to punch above it's class then a duplex is the way to go without doubt.  Obviously the 42gram steel is the cheapest, but I haven't got a 3.5inch gun and I don't want one. a 32 gram load has 34% less recoil than a 42 gram one when fired at the same MV.  I like 137 grains of 7.5TSS under 355 grains of copper coated B steel for greylags out of my '72 Rem1100.  It murders them and costs me £1 per cartridge with the components at the cost when I bought them last year. it's 67 TSS pellets that print 100% inside a 30" circle at 45 yards and the 66 #B steel pellets bloom a little earlier giving me around 60% at 40 and a really nice filled pattern at 25 yards. it will take geese cleanly at 55 which is as far as I want to shoot at them unless I'm shooting my 28 bore...