Unexpectedly lost zero

[Pigrenok]

Hello, everyone!

I have got a bit of a problem with my air rifle Webley Axsor .22 (sub 12 ft lb). I shoot it with Henbaker CY789 day/night digital scope.

The situation was as following. I zeroed the rifle with the scope at the local shooting range. Zeroed out at 10 and 30 metres (with a bit of hold under It was shooting very stable and consistent and always getting exactly where I was aiming it with very good groups even at 40-50 metres distance (obviously with certain holding over).

Since then I shot a couple of rats (at short distance) and everything worked great.

A couple of days ago, I was invited to shoot some rabbits on a farm. I decided to check zero of the rifle. To my total surprise, the gun was shooting about 6-7 inches right and down (it was very quiet evening, so, cannot be only wind). It was relatively cold evening and the dew started to fall on the grass I believe.

I re-zeroed it, seems everything alright. Went out into the field. At some point for close enough to a rabbit (about 30 metres, exactly my zero), made a shot and the pellet went the same 6-7 inches up and left (pretty much where my original zero was). After that I tried to shoot at some bump in the ground and it kept shooting the same 6-7 inches up and left. So, original zero returned. I had to stop and return as it is plainly wrong to shoot a live quarry without well zeroed rifle and it was too late and dark to re-zero it again.

I am puzzled at what this could actually be? Dew inside a barrel? I took a rifle from a case in the car 5 minutes before I went to check zero. Or there is some other reason for that that anybody can think of?

The bigger question is how do I avoid this situation in the future?

I would appreciate any thoughts on this issue.

Thanks.

Best wishes,

Vit

[ditchman]

have you some mixed up ammunition ?

[scarecrow243]

are you sure you are putting your head and eye in the same position every time ie against scopes rubber eye piece

[Ultrastu]

I'm not familiar with this model but it sounds like a software  problem .

Your scope is putting the + hair in the wrong place on your screen .ie it's probably  defaulting to an original  out of box position, then later accepting your adjusted zero settings and back and forth .

Possibly the cold or you may have confused it some how  maybe activating record image or something .

Maybe try a rest settings and start again with your zero  and see if it holds after turning on and off a few times and over night .

[Pigrenok]

21 minutes ago, ditchman said:

have you some mixed up ammunition ?

Thanks for the idea but no, exactly the same pellets from original tin which I used for zero and then for shooting. I keep different types of pellets very careful apart.

9 minutes ago, scarecrow243 said:

are you sure you are putting your head and eye in the same position every time ie against scopes rubber eye piece

It is digital scope, it has effectively a screen that you are looking at (even through an eye piece). It cannot move the point of aim. It was very consistent before and at least seems like consistent afterwards.

Moreover, when the point of aim moved it was still consistent enough to zero it successfully.

[Pigrenok]

7 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

I'm not familiar with this model but it sounds like a software  problem .

Your scope is putting the + hair in the wrong place on your screen .ie it's probably  defaulting to an original  out of box position, then later accepting your adjusted zero settings and back and forth .

Possibly the cold or you may have confused it some how  maybe activating record image or something .

Maybe try a rest settings and start again with your zero  and see if it holds after turning on and off a few times and over night .

I will try to play around with turning on and off, taking battery out and in again, etc... But I set exact position (with certain number of "clicks" left/right or top/bottom. I even tried to re-zero on different zoom and then get back to original zoom and just set the previous numbers back and voila back on zero...

I will play around and report back if I find something, but I feel it is gun rather than scope.

[decoy1979]

Could pellets be clipping the mod?

[jall25]

Mod loose is always a go to

Then 90 percent of the time - its loose mounts 

[Pigrenok]

51 minutes ago, decoy1979 said:

Could pellets be clipping the mod?

What do you mean? 

49 minutes ago, jall25 said:

Mod loose is always a go to

Then 90 percent of the time - its loose mounts 

That is very interesting idea, thanks.

So, you think scope mount just got loose? Actually, in a hindsight I remember one of the two screws holding the scope on rail was a bit loose. But I would expect it to give inconsistent aim point, which was not the case.

I will try intentionally to make it loose and see whether it has this effect.

[decoy1979]

8 hours ago, Pigrenok said:

What do you mean? 

That is very interesting idea, thanks.

So, you think scope mount just got loose? Actually, in a hindsight I remember one of the two screws holding the scope on rail was a bit loose. But I would expect it to give inconsistent aim point, which was not the case.

I will try intentionally to make it loose and see whether it has this effect.

Pellets could be hitting the baffle of the moderator causing deflection and therefore resulting in missing your target.

You could prove this theory by removing the moderator and taking x no of shots and see how the rifle performs.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

10 hours ago, ditchman said:

have you some mixed up ammunition ?

That would have to be some substantial difference in pellet weight to cause such a wild change at 30 metres.

[jall25]

8 hours ago, Pigrenok said:

What do you mean? 

That is very interesting idea, thanks.

So, you think scope mount just got loose? Actually, in a hindsight I remember one of the two screws holding the scope on rail was a bit loose. But I would expect it to give inconsistent aim point, which was not the case.

I will try intentionally to make it loose and see whether it has this effect.

If your mount is loose it will have a massive effect as you shoot and the recoil moves it or as you take aim and move the scope 

I have a thermal unit on a shotgun - for shooting rats 

This week the mounts came loose and the "zero" moved by circa 1 metre at 25 metres !

When i got home and looked at the unit it was almost free floating on the front mount 

[Rim Fire]

Try zeroing it i don't know this model but make sure you have saved the zero settings shut it off then try again then shut it off again and make sure the settings are the same 

[Bobba]

1 hour ago, jall25 said:

I have a thermal unit on a shotgun - for shooting rats  

I would appreciate details of this arrangement please. Thanks.

[jall25]

2 hours ago, Bobba said:

I would appreciate details of this arrangement please. Thanks.

Here you go Bobba 

Its a rail - with the mounts on it

I just took everything to my gunshop and asked him to match it all up for me.

I had been shooting rats with limited success with .22 but they scampered into the bramble or i got flash back if using the NV

This is awesome and i have had circa 350 from around our feeders and beetle banks.

if you do the same - may i just caution without teaching you to suck eggs - to make sure its a rat - Once you have seen a few its very easy - but at first its east to confuse with mice 

Also now we are in ground nesting bird season and their heads can look a bit ratty - through the thermal.

I just wait until im sure of what it is and then bang - or leave them in the undergrowth until they move and its very easy to identify then

 

Get it done and get them shot - people underestimate the damage they do to ground nesting birds - and how much food they take !

If you need anything else drop me a line 

I was using subsonic cartridges - hence the hushpower - but to be honest the rats only run for the nearest cover - but you can still see them - they don't overly worry about the bang so a semi=auto or usual gun could be used i'm sure. The odd one that goes to ground soon re-emerges anyway 

[Pigrenok]

3 hours ago, jall25 said:

If your mount is loose it will have a massive effect as you shoot and the recoil moves it or as you take aim and move the scope 

I have a thermal unit on a shotgun - for shooting rats 

This week the mounts came loose and the "zero" moved by circa 1 metre at 25 metres !

When i got home and looked at the unit it was almost free floating on the front mount 

Ok, I did not shoot it yet, but I tried to simply make loose one screw and it falls a little bit. But when I touched the second one it goes exactly to where it was shooting back then.

And the second screw feels falsely tight.

So, it was all me being completely stupid. Oh, well... Always learn something new.

Thank you very much jall25 and everybody else who took time to answer my desperate call. Great community who is always ready to help!

By the way, I am also interested in the setup of shotgun with thermal for rats. I have never heard using shotgun for rats, let alone shotgun with thermal unit.

[jall25]

1 minute ago, Pigrenok said:

Ok, I did not shoot it yet, but I tried to simply make loose one screw and it falls a little bit. But when I touched the second one it goes exactly to where it was shooting back then.

And the second screw feels falsely tight.

So, it was all me being completely stupid. Oh, well... Always learn something new.

Thank you very much jall25 and everybody else who took time to answer my desperate call. Great community who is always ready to help!

By the way, I am also interested in the setup of shotgun with thermal for rats. I have never heard using shotgun for rats, let alone shotgun with thermal unit.

Pleasure - Was just typing re shotgun and thermal 

I should have patented it !!! Dragon Den anyone !

 

Hahahaha

Al the best 

[Pigrenok]

3 minutes ago, jall25 said:

Here you go Bobba 

Its a rail - with the mounts on it

I just took everything to my gunshop and asked him to match it all up for me.

I had been shooting rats with limited success with .22 but they scampered into the bramble or i got flash back if using the NV

This is awesome and i have had circa 350 from around our feeders and beetle banks.

if you do the same - may i just caution without teaching you to suck eggs - to make sure its a rat - Once you have seen a few its very easy - but at first its east to confuse with mice 

Also now we are in ground nesting bird season and their heads can look a bit ratty - through the thermal.

I just wait until im sure of what it is and then bang - or leave them in the undergrowth until they move and its very easy to identify then

 

Get it done and get them shot - people underestimate the damage they do to ground nesting birds - and how much food they take !

If you need anything else drop me a line 

I was using subsonic cartridges - hence the hushpower - but to be honest the rats only run for the nearest cover - but you can still see them - they don't overly worry about the bang so a semi=auto or usual gun could be used i'm sure. The odd one that goes to ground soon re-emerges anyway 

Wow! That is an interesting setup. I shoot rats in not a large garden so, only air rifle is suitable. But for larger farm yards it can be very well suited.

Rats are horrible creatures and needs to be taken care of for sure.

[jall25]

1 minute ago, Pigrenok said:

Wow! That is an interesting setup. I shoot rats in not a large garden so, only air rifle is suitable. But for larger farm yards it can be very well suited.

Rats are horrible creatures and needs to be taken care of for sure.

Its ideal for anyone with multiple feeders - eg pheasant shoot

You simply walk from one to another - shoot one or two straight away 

The others sit in the bramble watching - so you can shoot them - then move on

It has allowed me to be so much more effective and time efficient

As i say please please - follow the golden rule - dont shoot where you cant see - identify - and please be careful - as with a rifle - air or otherwise - shooting close up with ricochets 

[Bobba]

2 hours ago, jall25 said:

Here you go Bobba 

Its a rail - with the mounts on it

I just took everything to my gunshop and asked him to match it all up for me.

I had been shooting rats with limited success with .22 but they scampered into the bramble or i got flash back if using the NV

This is awesome and i have had circa 350 from around our feeders and beetle banks.

if you do the same - may i just caution without teaching you to suck eggs - to make sure its a rat - Once you have seen a few its very easy - but at first its east to confuse with mice 

Also now we are in ground nesting bird season and their heads can look a bit ratty - through the thermal.

I just wait until im sure of what it is and then bang - or leave them in the undergrowth until they move and its very easy to identify then

 

Get it done and get them shot - people underestimate the damage they do to ground nesting birds - and how much food they take !

If you need anything else drop me a line 

I was using subsonic cartridges - hence the hushpower - but to be honest the rats only run for the nearest cover - but you can still see them - they don't overly worry about the bang so a semi=auto or usual gun could be used i'm sure. The odd one that goes to ground soon re-emerges anyway 

Jail25

Most interesting. Food for thought. What is the thermal imager?

Many thanks

Bob

Edited March 30, 2023 by Bobba

[oldypigeonpopper]

Hello, got to be a bit expensive using a 410 🤔

[Ultrastu]

That looks like a 12b mossberg to me .

I'd have thought a .410 would have been a bit more suitable  .but clearly this set up works .

[jall25]

7 hours ago, Bobba said:

Jail25

Most interesting. Food for thought. What is the thermal imager?

Many thanks

Bob

I use a Pulsar XQ 50 i think its is and have another XP 50 on .270 for foxes

2 hours ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, got to be a bit expensive using a 410 🤔

 

1 hour ago, Ultrastu said:

That looks like a 12b mossberg to me .

I'd have thought a .410 would have been a bit more suitable  .but clearly this set up works .

It does cost a few quid to run it i suppose - but you dont miss really and what you spend in cartridges you more than save in food and to me more importantly the impact the rats have on the ground nesters

 

It is a 12 - i found the .410 would sometimes not have the range i wanted or the penetration through some of the bramble and brash on my clear fell

The only downside is its heavy - very heavy - and pumping it makes my arms and hands ache like hell - but it keeps me fit !

[oowee]

This loss of zero seems to be an issue that plagues much of the NV kit out their particularly the Photon and ATN kit. 

[Pigrenok]

21 minutes ago, oowee said:

This loss of zero seems to be an issue that plagues much of the NV kit out their particularly the Photon and ATN kit. 

It was just a loose screw, but possibly it is the case for many kits like this because they use rail systems with screws that tightened by hand for such release unlike normal scope mounts that are tightened by hex keys.

Lesson learned: always properly check all screws before going shooting.