Met Police handing in there Firearms

[AULD YIN]

Also about time the were told to remove the defaced union flag  ( thin blue line) most officers  wear,a constant reminder of officer safety not public safety.

jm 

[12gauge82]

33 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

The defence are going to say it was an AD or a malfunction and the prosecution appear to have deliberately left room for that defence to upheld. 

If that is their defense and I haven't seen anything to say they are, I don't know if you know something I don't?

Do you believe this copper has set out to intentionally murder someone? because I find that hard to believe.

[shaun4860]

Until you are in that situation you don’t know what you would do.

I would hate to be under the scrutiny they get put under.

Damned if they do damned if they don’t.

How many unarmed officers are killed injured every year whilst putting their lives on the line?

Some people on here should think before they post.

[WalkedUp]

6 hours ago, shaun4860 said:

How many unarmed officers are killed injured every year whilst putting their lives on the line?

Killed, it is actually comparatively few. Whilst each one tragic, there were just 23 police deaths in the line of duty in the last two decades (rate of 1.15 per annum) in Great Britain. To put it into some perspective, the HSE work-related death rate in my industry, construction, was 45 last year for the UK. Injuries are likely to be even less frequent than other comparables. 

Edited September 25, 2023 by WalkedUp

[1Ab]

As I see it police with guns, no matter how well trained and how reserved. Innocent people will eventually get injured or die as a result, that's the price we have to pay. If the armed police are just there as a visual deterrent we might as well not have them.

I think it's absolutely the right thing for them to hand in their tickets. 

[Rim Fire]

7 hours ago, shaun4860 said:

How many unarmed officers are killed injured every year whilst putting their lives on the line?

Then don't take the job nobody is forcing them to take that line of work nobody and i mean nobody is above the law 

[Centrepin]

HM Forces for decades have faced this.

Charged with murder or other charges for doing what they considered right at the time.

Years later for political or other reasons, including public opinion, charged and convicted regardless of circumstances at the time.

No member of the forces refuses to serve on these grounds.

[12gauge82]

2 minutes ago, Centrepin said:

HM Forces for decades have faced this.

Charged with murder or other charges for doing what they considered right at the time.

Years later for political or other reasons, including public opinion, charged and convicted regardless of circumstances at the time.

No member of the forces refuses to serve on these grounds.

I think the difference here is police officers can carry guns voluntarily, I assume in the military it's a requirement. The armed police have decided not to carry guns, which I guess is like deciding the risks are too high in the military and deciding not to join?

I think im right that it's a voluntary part of their job and am happy to be corrected.

[Centrepin]

Just now, 12gauge82 said:

I think the difference here is police officers can carry guns voluntarily, I assume in the military it's a requirement. The armed police have decided not to carry guns, which I guess is like deciding the risks are too high in the military and deciding not to join?

I think im right that it's a voluntary part of their job and am happy to be corrected.

I really don't know, I would presume they volunteer for armed jobs in the same way as they volunteer for dogs, CID, traffic etc. It would then become part of the job. Isn't it a little like a traffic cop refusing to drive in case he gets caught speeding?

Yes, all branches of the military are required to have a least a basic knowledge of firearms, usually delivered in basic training but in a lot of cases never again seen.  

[GHE]

3 hours ago, WalkedUp said:

Killed, it is actually comparatively few. Whilst each one tragic, there were just 23 police deaths in the line of duty in the last two decades (rate of 1.15 per annum) in Great Britain. To put it into some perspective, the HSE work-related death rate in my industry, construction, was 45 last year for the UK. Injuries are likely to be even less frequent than other comparables. 

Another thing to think about is the number of people employed in each industry, it's a percentage game. The number of fatalities in fishing is very high, considering the number of people employed in the industry, and it's even worse in agriculture, on average 10 people are killed just in tractor accidents every year. The police figures, although each one is a tragedy, are tiny and each one dominates the news, the family are very well taken care of and the perpetrators are always found - with civilians, most crimes against us aren't even investigated and when deaths occur they just get a single mention on the news, at best - we just don't seem to matter.

I think, with armed police, there are real problems with training. We've all seen armed police at clay shoots and rifle clubs, their safety attitudes are usually appalling and well below those of civilians, something needs to be done to improve this. The case we're talking about here may or may not be about incompetence. Personally, I always feel uneasy when I see an armed police officer on the streets or at an airport etc. and I don't feel that way about armed military personnel, they are so much better trained and don't have an arrogance problem.

Also, why is police safety and why do police lives seem to matter so much more than civilian safety and civilian lives? It seems back-to-front to me . . .

Anyway, people in London should feel safer now, the army is going to provide armed support for now.

[Westley]

Can I ask how many of the people posting on here have ACTUALLY been an armed response Officer  ??  Until you have been put into that situation whereby you have a split second to make a decision to shoot......or not, I do not think you can legitimately criticise those that are.

3 minutes ago, GHE said:

Another thing to think about is the number of people employed in each industry, it's a percentage game. The number of fatalities in fishing is very high, considering the number of people employed in the industry, and it's even worse in agriculture, on average 10 people are killed just in tractor accidents every year. The police figures, although each one is a tragedy, are tiny and each one dominates the news, the family are very well taken care of and the perpetrators are always found - with civilians, most crimes against us aren't even investigated and when deaths occur they just get a single mention on the news, at best - we just don't seem to matter.

I think, with armed police, there are real problems with training. We've all seen armed police at clay shoots and rifle clubs, their safety attitudes are usually appalling and well below those of civilians, something needs to be done to improve this. The case we're talking about here may or may not be about incompetence. Personally, I always feel uneasy when I see an armed police officer on the streets or at an airport etc. and I don't feel that way about armed military personnel, they are so much better trained and don't have an arrogance problem.

Also, why is police safety and why do police lives seem to matter so much more than civilian safety and civilian lives? It seems back-to-front to me . . .

Anyway, people in London should feel safer now, the army is going to provide armed support for now.

You must have seen a different Military to those that I have seen then  !

[GHE]

2 minutes ago, Westley said:

Can I ask how many of the people posting on here have ACTUALLY been an armed response Officer  ??  Until you have been put into that situation whereby you have a split second to make a decision to shoot......or not, I do not think you can legitimately criticise those that are.

I agree, I don't have what it takes to be an armed police officer - but I feel that I'm still entitled to have views about police competence, training and attitudes. The police hold legitimate shooters to a very high standard, I think that they should apply the same standards to themselves.

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, Centrepin said:

I really don't know, I would presume they volunteer for armed jobs in the same way as they volunteer for dogs, CID, traffic etc. It would then become part of the job. Isn't it a little like a traffic cop refusing to drive in case he gets caught speeding?

Yes, all branches of the military are required to have a least a basic knowledge of firearms, usually delivered in basic training but in a lot of cases never again seen.  

I guess it would be like a traffic cop deciding not to do traffic anymore and returning to being a beat officer (if there's such a thing anymore), which I think is fair enough, particularly if as appears to be happening in this country at the moment their is a political drive to have trail by media, or throw wild politically motivated allegations based on someone's skin colour (although im absolutely not saying that is the case here, as I know nothing about it), only that in past events like the duggan shooting that sparked riots and looting up and down the country.

[12gauge82]

7 minutes ago, Westley said:

Can I ask how many of the people posting on here have ACTUALLY been an armed response Officer  ??  Until you have been put into that situation whereby you have a split second to make a decision to shoot......or not, I do not think you can legitimately criticise those that are.

You must have seen a different Military to those that I have seen then  !

Also agreed, I'm no fan of the police these days, I think they're failing the general population badly, the reasons for which I won't go into or we'll drift out of the bounds of this thread. That said, I don't know what it's like to be a police officer, or an armed officer and I think even if you were an armed officer, it's probably hard to comprehend what it's like to have to actually pull the trigger on someone, which is why I believe it's right that the police volunteer to carry weapons and are not forced to.

I believe military personnel coming to assist police should be volunteer to.

[welsh1]

24 minutes ago, Westley said:

Can I ask how many of the people posting on here have ACTUALLY been an armed response Officer  ??  Until you have been put into that situation whereby you have a split second to make a decision to shoot......or not, I do not think you can legitimately criticise those that are.

You must have seen a different Military to those that I have seen then  !

Up until a few years ago the military were patrolling Northern Ireland, and making decisions about engaging on a very regular basis, the Army are very well trained and know their rules of engagement very well. But there are Veterens now being prosecuted for their actions 30- 40 years ago and in all cases they were cleared at the time ,i don't see many jumping to their defense in the political world.

The armed police know the risks when they take on the job, they should be highly trained,they are not above the law, and if (and i don't know the circumstances so i am guessing) one of them had the adrenaline take over and pulled the trigger prematurley resulting in the death of another who posed no threat, then he is guilty of an offence and should be prosecuted under the law. Those officers handing in their cards should not get them back, because they are either trying to bully the legal system into letting their mate off or they have realised they are simply not mentally able to do the job.

The law applies equally to all.

 

[udderlyoffroad]

3 hours ago, WalkedUp said:

To put it into some perspective, the HSE work-related death rate in my industry, construction, was 45 last year for the UK. Injuries are likely to be even less frequent than other comparables. 

Tell you what, when I worked in construction, nobody was ever threatening to stab me with a dirty needle or spit on me, or indeed thump me.  I also saw comparatively few things that gave me nightmares* 

34 minutes ago, GHE said:

We've all seen armed police at clay shoots and rifle clubs, their safety attitudes are usually appalling and well below those of civilians, something needs to be done to improve this.

Have we?  My sample size - one - of a firearms officer at our straw baler, listening to instruction and averaging 8/10 on his first go would suggest otherwise. No complaints re barrel discipline/finger on bang switch either.

36 minutes ago, GHE said:

Personally, I always feel uneasy when I see an armed police officer on the streets

Do your nerves a favour and avoid going to literally any other country 😂

 

39 minutes ago, GHE said:

Also, why is police safety and why do police lives seem to matter so much more than civilian safety and civilian lives? It seems back-to-front to me . . .

Police -in this country at least - ARE civilians.  And yes plenty of officers seem to forget that too.

 

40 minutes ago, GHE said:

Anyway, people in London should feel safer now, the army is going to provide armed support for now.

Depends on your relative perspectives - experienced 30-something coppers with a firearms ticket vs. barely out of basic training squaddie? 

Or an experienced several tours army sgt used to dealing with civilian populations vs a nervous 5ft nothing officer with an H&K?

Both should be given training and frameworks needed to police, the difference is one group shouldn't be doing it unless there's some dire national emergency.

 

*Insert cheap joke about quality of new build housing here.

[Westley]

Perhaps Police Officers should also consider driving to the speed limits, obeying traffic signals and "keeping within the law at all times" too, after all they are putting the public at risk on an hourly basis. Especially when recently an Officer was sent to prison when it 'went wrong'  ?

All well and good, until it is YOU or your Family that need that quick response. 

 

[welsh1]

10 minutes ago, Westley said:

Perhaps Police Officers should also consider driving to the speed limits, obeying traffic signals and "keeping within the law at all times" too, after all they are putting the public at risk on an hourly basis. Especially when recently an Officer was sent to prison when it 'went wrong'  ?

All well and good, until it is YOU or your Family that need that quick response. 

 

Police officers have a dispensation to break the speed limit and ignore signals in certain circumstances, they have driver training and are shown what they should and should not do, some officers are trained to higher standards than others and are the only ones authorised for certain circumstances.
And they should be held accountable if they are found to have not complied with their training and a death or injury to others is the result.

All well and good the police speeding or running a red light without following the training given until it is you or your family that is hit

[Rim Fire]

2 hours ago, Westley said:

Can I ask how many of the people posting on here have ACTUALLY been an armed response Officer  ??  Until you have been put into that situation whereby you have a split second to make a decision to shoot......or not, I do not think you can legitimately criticise those that are.

You must have seen a different Military to those that I have seen then  !

Then don't put yourself  in that position where  others can criticise you when you get it wrong why did he pull the trigger he was unarmed  so he was  threatening 

[Westley]

4 minutes ago, Rim Fire said:

Then don't put yourself  in that position where  others can criticise you when you get it wrong why did he pull the trigger he was unarmed  so he was  threatening 

He did THAT as soon as he joined the Police Force  !

1 hour ago, welsh1 said:

Police officers have a dispensation to break the speed limit and ignore signals in certain circumstances, they have driver training and are shown what they should and should not do, some officers are trained to higher standards than others and are the only ones authorised for certain circumstances.
And they should be held accountable if they are found to have not complied with their training and a death or injury to others is the result.

All well and good the police speeding or running a red light without following the training given until it is you or your family that is hit

All well and good UNTIL it is you or your family requiring urgent assistance too  !

[HantsRob]

14 hours ago, Vince Green said:

It's considered cushy because they don't get involved in all the grim messy aspects of daily police work dealing with violent drunks and  gory road accidents etc

Just as a side reference, firearms teams that are operational (not CTSFO) are often advanced drivers in advanced vehicles, so often deal with road traffic jobs such as TPAC. They also are often first on scene due to the fact their first aid kit is a lot better equipped.

On the Isle Of Wight, it is a firearms team that perform roads policing duties, including fatal road incidents.

I am going to hold my thoughts on the rest of your comment, and this thread. I do however, hope that the investigation is thorough and swift, for the sake of the families and friends, and the officers involved. 

[HantsRob]

2 hours ago, Westley said:

Perhaps Police Officers should also consider driving to the speed limits, obeying traffic signals and "keeping within the law at all times" too, after all they are putting the public at risk on an hourly basis. Especially when recently an Officer was sent to prison when it 'went wrong'  ?

All well and good, until it is YOU or your Family that need that quick response. 

 

Were you aware the laws changed Nov of 2022 around Police driving?
 

https://www.polfed.org/news/latest-news/2022/police-drivers-will-be-impacted-by-new-legislation/

In short, rather than being judged against a safe and competent "normal" driver, it is now against the standard of driving they are trained to. It protects officers far more than it ever did before, quite rightly.

What it will do for the sake of balance, is that if an officer drives against his training (e.g. a PCSO speeds when they have an A to B or general patrol ticket only, or a previously advanced driver loses their ticket as they don't use it for 3 months then responds an in unmarked advanced card) then they will be open to prosecution. 

 

Again, keeping it as a side note rather than discussing the thread topic.

 

[welsh1]

51 minutes ago, Westley said:

He did THAT as soon as he joined the Police Force  !

All well and good UNTIL it is you or your family requiring urgent assistance too  !

So are you saying to let them break any law they want? 
They have rules and guidence for reasons, if they break them they are held to account under the law of the land that they swore to uphold.And as officers of the law the penalty is usually bigger if they break those laws because they of all people should know better.

 

[Rem260]

42 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

So are you saying to let them break any law they want? 
They have rules and guidence for reasons, if they break them they are held to account under the law of the land that they swore to uphold.And as officers of the law the penalty is usually bigger if they break those laws because they of all people should know better.

 

No one should be allowed to break the law. However it should be applied equally and fairly. It should not be stacked against those who are trying to do thier best in difficult circumstances. Especially in hindsight. I am sure there are many incidents in which the police have been lawfully able to discharge their firearms but didn't. Thereby putting themselves in danger. You don't hear the families coming forward protesting that their loved one should have been shot and the officer to be commended for not doing so. How long does it take to pull a concealed weapon or put your foot on the accelerator.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Rem260

[welsh1]

12 minutes ago, Rem260 said:

No one should be allowed to break the law. However it should be applied equally and fairly. It should not be stacked against those who are trying to do thier best in difficult circumstances. Especially in hindsight.

You are correct, no one should break the law, it is not stacked against any police officer, they are given rules to follow and training for the given task.