Zero tolerance

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, owain said:

You answer my question first, then I will answer yours

EU citizen migration slowed down considerably from 2020 due to us eventually leaving properly, coupled with covid , even illegal migration slowed.

When the furore calmed, mass illegal migration picked up pace, free from any shackles that should have applied before , but didn't, France became a giant transit park for illegals waiting to cross tge Channel, carefully watched , aided and abetted by French authorities , so yes its got worse.

It's got worse because the EU don't respect their own rules on illegal migration, allowing free passage and residence to undocumented illegal aliens, they didn't when we were a member, and they certainly don't now.

They often actively ASSIST migrants to get to the UK,  and if you believe that rejoining would change this , I'm sorry, but they have been doing it for 20 years now, and it's never going to stop.

Plans like Rwanda are a deterrent,  not a solution per se, a better method would be to take a leaf out of the east Europeans book ,and just shuttle them back to the last country they came from, make it someone else's problem, who then in turn, make it another's, until it just isn't in the migrants interest to try.

Hungary , Slovakia etc are already doing this in direct violation of EU law, and seem to get away with it, and we should be doing it too.

The fact that we send so few back anywhere , even Albanian migrants is telling, and somewhat pathetic,we need changes to law,and a different mindset.

Pulling that off will guarantee the tories stay in power, so watch this space.

If it doesn't happen and labour get in, you can double those figures, as labour import the votes to keep them in power for decades.

[100milesaway]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

EU citizen migration slowed down considerably from 2020 due to us eventually leaving properly, coupled with covid , even illegal migration slowed.

When the furore calmed, mass illegal migration picked up pace, free from any shackles that should have applied before , but didn't, France became a giant transit park for illegals waiting to cross tge Channel, carefully watched , aided and abetted by French authorities , so yes its got worse.

It's got worse because the EU don't respect their own rules on illegal migration, allowing free passage and residence to undocumented illegal aliens, they didn't when we were a member, and they certainly don't now.

They often actively ASSIST migrants to get to the UK,  and if you believe that rejoining would change this , I'm sorry, but they have been doing it for 20 years now, and it's never going to stop.

Plans like Rwanda are a deterrent,  not a solution per se, a better method would be to take a leaf out of the east Europeans book ,and just shuttle them back to the last country they came from, make it someone else's problem, who then in turn, make it another's, until it just isn't in the migrants interest to try.

Hungary , Slovakia etc are already doing this in direct violation of EU law, and seem to get away with it, and we should be doing it too.

The fact that we send so few back anywhere , even Albanian migrants is telling, and somewhat pathetic,we need changes to law,and a different mindset.

Pulling that off will guarantee the tories stay in power, so watch this space.

If it doesn't happen and labour get in, you can double those figures, as labour import the votes to keep them in power for decades.

Is the correct answer.

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

EU citizen migration slowed down considerably from 2020 due to us eventually leaving properly, coupled with covid , even illegal migration slowed.

When the furore calmed, mass illegal migration picked up pace, free from any shackles that should have applied before , but didn't, France became a giant transit park for illegals waiting to cross tge Channel, carefully watched , aided and abetted by French authorities , so yes its got worse.

It's got worse because the EU don't respect their own rules on illegal migration, allowing free passage and residence to undocumented illegal aliens, they didn't when we were a member, and they certainly don't now.

They often actively ASSIST migrants to get to the UK,  and if you believe that rejoining would change this , I'm sorry, but they have been doing it for 20 years now, and it's never going to stop.

Plans like Rwanda are a deterrent,  not a solution per se, a better method would be to take a leaf out of the east Europeans book ,and just shuttle them back to the last country they came from, make it someone else's problem, who then in turn, make it another's, until it just isn't in the migrants interest to try.

Hungary , Slovakia etc are already doing this in direct violation of EU law, and seem to get away with it, and we should be doing it too.

The fact that we send so few back anywhere , even Albanian migrants is telling, and somewhat pathetic,we need changes to law,and a different mindset.

Pulling that off will guarantee the tories stay in power, so watch this space.

If it doesn't happen and labour get in, you can double those figures, as labour import the votes to keep them in power for decades.

Good post. 

[Gordon R]

Quote

Starmer said at the weekend that what marked out leaders like Blair and Thatcher was that they got things done. 

oowee

Starmer didn't mean what he said. He has slagged Thatcher off throughout his career. He said it to appeal to Tory voters.

You have mentioned on a number of occasions "a plan" to tackle immigration. Can you suggest what that might be? Ignore rules for legal immigration - just deal with illegals? 

What is your estimate for the number already here? I say 6 million, whilst some unwisely suggest it is much less.

[oowee]

7 hours ago, Mungler said:

 

The jealous and inadequate will always cry for socialism but they will remain in the minority as no one will want to make themselves poorer no matter how nobly it’s dressed up. .

The 50% of the country that voted for Brexit would probably disagree about choosing to make themselves poorer. 

I can see the attraction of such a simplistic view. The reality is that eventually we all move around in the same circle. Sooner or later the poor will fight back for their fare share. We are all better off ensuring a fair share and equal opportunity for all. 

Edited December 5, 2023 by oowee

[oowee]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

EU citizen migration slowed down considerably from 2020 due to us eventually leaving properly, coupled with covid , even illegal migration slowed.

Irregular migration has increased. 

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/irregular-migration-to-the-uk-year-ending-june-2023/irregular-migration-to-the-uk-year-ending-june-2023#irregular-arrivals

 

[oowee]

1 hour ago, Gordon R said:

oowee

Starmer didn't mean what he said. He has slagged Thatcher off throughout his career. He said it to appeal to Tory voters.

You have mentioned on a number of occasions "a plan" to tackle immigration. Can you suggest what that might be? Ignore rules for legal immigration - just deal with illegals? 

What is your estimate for the number already here? I say 6 million, whilst some unwisely suggest it is much less.

Starmer was highlighting her ability to get the job done, not her political attributes. We may not agree with any particular political party but what matters is that that they get elected on a manifesto for action that has some logic. 

The illegals are a direct consequence of the lack of legal process. It is not possible to deal with one without the other. It is clear that we need far greater numbers of working age people in the UK to maintain the increasing older population.

When we close the border to the EU and try to do trade deals else where we increase the opportunity for third world country access (trade deals with India will be a classic). Migration from the EU has a greater capacity to be two way. Many of those that 'make it in UK' are likely to return to the nostalgia of country of berth. As wealth increase at home more of this is likely to happen. The proximity of the border aids porosity. Migration from third world countries will by its nature be far greater. Larger families with more dependants, and a reduced porosity of a distant border, together with vast wealth discrepancy will reduce the opportunity for homeland returns. 

 

No idea on the number of illegals here, I have no way to get an informed opinion. The migration observatory puts it at 3.3m and Migration watch at 1.2m. 

[Mungler]

24 minutes ago, oowee said:

The 50% of the country that voted for Brexit would probably disagree about choosing to make themselves poorer. 

I can see the attraction of such a simplistic view. The reality is that eventually we all move around in the same circle. Sooner or later the poor will fight back for their fare share. We are all better off ensuring a fair share and equal opportunity for all. 

That made me chuckle. 

The Brexit violin and socialist nonsense.

Capitalism and nothing else has lead to the greatest reduction in global poverty as well as creating the highest standard of living ever known. 

On the subject of a ‘fair share’ a fair share of what precisely?

It’s always the bitter jealous types that moan about the rich and who yearn for socialism. The indian family down the road from me got kicked out of Uganda with nothing but the clothes they wore and what they could carry. They got here and couldn’t believe there was free schooling, a welfare state and an NHS etc. if they can make a go of it (and they / their children have) then anyone can. 

 

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

Irregular migration has increased. 

As I quite clearly stated.
 

4 hours ago, Rewulf said:

mass illegal migration picked up pace, free from any shackles that should have applied before , but didn't, France became a giant transit park for illegals waiting to cross tge Channel, carefully watched , aided and abetted by French authorities , so yes its got worse.

 

1 hour ago, oowee said:

The 50% of the country that voted for Brexit would probably disagree about choosing to make themselves poorer. 

As I would imagine, the population of Greece, who thought the EU would be a good idea, but literally destroyed their economy instead.
Theyre not even able to leave now if they wanted to , so embroiled in EU debt as they are.

Ireland, a ticking time bomb of bankruptcy.
The east Europeans, finding it more and more difficult to reconcile their culture with EU ideology.

Its hardly Utopia is it ?

1 hour ago, oowee said:

Sooner or later the poor will fight back for their fare share. We are all better off ensuring a fair share and equal opportunity for all. 

Ah , communism, I mean socialism , lovely idea, doesnt actually work in practice (FACT)

1 hour ago, oowee said:

Starmer was highlighting her ability to get the job done, not her political attributes.

Wasnt it her political attributes that 'got the job done' ?

What has Starmer ever 'got done' ?

[Westward]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

That made me chuckle. 

The Brexit violin and socialist nonsense.

Capitalism and nothing else has lead to the greatest reduction in global poverty as well as creating the highest standard of living ever known. 

On the subject of a ‘fair share’ a fair share of what precisely?

It’s always the bitter jealous types that moan about the rich and who yearn for socialism. The indian family down the road from me got kicked out of Uganda with nothing but the clothes they wore and what they could carry. They got here and couldn’t believe there was free schooling, a welfare state and an NHS etc. if they can make a go of it (and they / their children have) then anyone can. 

 

Excellent post.

What the "fair shares" brigade don't understand is that you don't strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. Thatcher most certainly understood that principal along with the concept of aspiration for yourself and your dependants. The culture of entitlement, so pervasive among the left and so loudly proclaimed by Starmer's accolytes, simply reduces the quality of life for the people of this country and ultimately benefits no one.

[Yellow Bear]

8 minutes ago, Westward said:

The culture of entitlement, so pervasive among the left and so loudly proclaimed by Starmer's accolytes, simply reduces the quality of life for the people of this country and ultimately benefits no one.

Except the leaders and movers of "The Party" 

[oowee]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

That made me chuckle. 

The Brexit violin and socialist nonsense.

Capitalism and nothing else has lead to the greatest reduction in global poverty as well as creating the highest standard of living ever known. 

On the subject of a ‘fair share’ a fair share of what precisely?

It’s always the bitter jealous types that moan about the rich and who yearn for socialism. The indian family down the road from me got kicked out of Uganda with nothing but the clothes they wore and what they could carry. They got here and couldn’t believe there was free schooling, a welfare state and an NHS etc. if they can make a go of it (and they / their children have) then anyone can. 

 

I would agree with this but capitalism alone does not work. Socialism alone will not work. We need a form of Social Capitalism. At present the balance favours the ultra rich 1%. 

11 minutes ago, Westward said:

Excellent post.

 The culture of entitlement, so pervasive among the left and so loudly proclaimed by Starmer's accolytes, simply reduces the quality of life for the people of this country and ultimately benefits no one.

For example? 

[12gauge82]

5 hours ago, owain said:

Perhaps because when you’re all in the same gang, you have a certain amount of accountability to other members. Where as when one member leaves the gang the other members aren’t obliged to play by the rules any longer.

 👍

So what has specifically changed that's led to a rise in migrants, are you suggesting the French are purposely directing migrants towards the UK more than before we left?

[Gordon R]

oowee - your plan did make me smile. It totally ignored the problem. Some of the EU countries are solving the illegal problem, without resort to balancing acts.

Quote

No idea on the number of illegals here, I have no way to get an informed opinion. The migration observatory puts it at 3.3m and Migration watch at 1.2m. 

I can only assume that the two respective bodies have lost the ability to count.

[owain]

22 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

So what has specifically changed that's led to a rise in migrants, are you suggesting the French are purposely directing migrants towards the UK more than before we left?

Well, not being a French policeman or politician, I can’t tell you if they are deliberately directing migrants our way  or not. But it certainly looks like they are not trying their hardest to stop boats setting sail from their beaches. 

[oowee]

2 minutes ago, owain said:

Well, not being a French policeman or politician, I can’t tell you if they are deliberately directing migrants our way  or not. But it certainly looks like they are not trying their hardest to stop boats setting sail from their beaches. 

Why would they if the migrants don't want to stay?

13 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

oowee - your plan did make me smile. It totally ignored the problem. Some of the EU countries are solving the illegal problem, without resort to balancing acts.

I can only assume that the two respective bodies have lost the ability to count.

How well is the solution for some EU countries working? As well as the UK's plan for Rwanda? 

[owain]

1 minute ago, oowee said:

Why would they if the migrants don't want to stay?

Perhaps when we were members of the the EU, they were obliged to make an effort to stop them. Now we have left perhaps they are not? 

[Yellow Bear]

1 minute ago, owain said:

Perhaps when we were members of the the EU, they were obliged to make an effort to stop them. Now we have left perhaps they are not? 

Like most of the EU rules that they don't like the French just ignore them.

[Gordon R]

Quote

How well is the solution for some EU countries working?

Hungary, Czech Republic and Poland seem keen to do something about the problem, whereas the UK just rolls over. 

Sweden don't seem overjoyed with a flood of immigrants.

[oowee]

13 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Hungary, Czech Republic and Poland seem keen to do something about the problem, whereas the UK just rolls over. 

Sweden don't seem overjoyed with a flood of immigrants.

The UK like Poland, Czechia and Hungary all seem keen to do something. The question is how well is the solution working. I don't believe its any better there than here. 

Surely one of the things we need must be better processing. We managed it with the deal for Albania which turned round a large proportion. More of that approach?

More id cards? Access to services only with ID? Lets start joining the dots. 

Edited December 5, 2023 by oowee

[Rewulf]

18 minutes ago, oowee said:

The UK like Poland, Czechia and Hungary all seem keen to do something. The question is how well is the solution working. I don't believe its any better there than here. 

That , is a ridiculous assessment.

https://euaa.europa.eu/latest-asylum-trends-asylum

24 minutes ago, oowee said:

Surely one of the things we need must be better processing. We managed it with the deal for Albania which turned round a large proportion. More of that approach?

Thats funny.
Why would we NEED a 'deal' with Albania ? Its a safe country.
Its like you going to Switzerland and asking for asylum from the UK 

[Gordon R]

Quote

More id cards?

🙂 Just remind me how many millions went down the drain on the last ID card scheme. 

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, owain said:

Well, not being a French policeman or politician, I can’t tell you if they are deliberately directing migrants our way  or not. But it certainly looks like they are not trying their hardest to stop boats setting sail from their beaches. 

You have claimed the current level of migration is happening due to us leaving the EU, but can't give a specific reason!

Let me help you with this, the EU were utterly ineffective at preventing illegal migration when we were a member and are still utterly useless now, I.e no change there.

At least now we're out, we can get rid of the echr if necessary, which will alow us to kick illegal immigrants out of the UK. We couldn't do that as a member of the EU.

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, Westward said:

Excellent post.

What the "fair shares" brigade don't understand is that you don't strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. Thatcher most certainly understood that principal along with the concept of aspiration for yourself and your dependants. The culture of entitlement, so pervasive among the left and so loudly proclaimed by Starmer's accolytes, simply reduces the quality of life for the people of this country and ultimately benefits no one.

Spot on.

1 hour ago, owain said:

Perhaps when we were members of the the EU, they were obliged to make an effort to stop them. Now we have left perhaps they are not? 

Yes, that’s right, our European brothers looking out for us and the French putting our national interest ahead of theirs; that’s the best one I read today  😆😆

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, Gordon R said:

Sweden don't seem overjoyed with a flood of immigrants.

Great podcast about Sweden. Absolutely down the toilet and a shocking lesson to us all. 

Give it a listen, your blood will run cold.

There’s some big changes coming across Europe and from directions you wouldn’t have expected.

8 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

At least now we're out, we can get rid of the echr if necessary, which will alow us to kick illegal immigrants out of the UK. We couldn't do that as a member of the EU.

That’s the nub of it. The current Conservatives aren’t conservatives and they just don’t have the bottle for it. None of the main parties do. The crisis we face could be over in 6 months if there was the actual will to do it - it’s really not that difficult even if it appears hard to do.