BASC response to HSE lead ammunition consultation

[Scully]

On 23/12/2023 at 07:12, Rim Fire said:

 

you can't shoot three time a week and shoot 300 bird days and find takers for all  them 

I’ll try again….why not? We do, as do many others? 
Why are you shooting 900 birds a week if you can’t find takers for them? 

[Konor]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

Why are you shooting 900 birds a week if you can’t find takers for them? 

I’d guess because the point is the sale of the driven shooting at probably around £50 a bird and the bag is of little consequence to those that are apparently dumping it.

Quite a contrast to a days shooting where the bag is split between guns and beaters.

[Rim Fire]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

I’ll try again….why not? We do, as do many others? 
Why are you shooting 900 birds a week if you can’t find takers for them? 

Not saying some can but am saying all dont and i have seen this with my own eyes and don't bother to ask which shoot as i wont say because you normally ask this question when this topic comes up 

They shoot 3 to 400 birds days two to three times a week because it's a business not family or syndicut shoots 

[Scully]

50 minutes ago, Rim Fire said:

Not saying some can but am saying all dont and i have seen this with my own eyes and don't bother to ask which shoot as i wont say because you normally ask this question when this topic comes up 

They shoot 3 to 400 birds days two to three times a week because it's a business not family or syndicut shoots 

I’m asking why haven’t they sourced an outlet for the birds, especially as you claim it’s run as a business? 
Dealers will collect even for pet food. 
Sounds like bad business practice to me; bad practice all round to be honest if they’re being dumped. Entire or breasted? 


 

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Konor said:

I’d guess because the point is the sale of the driven shooting at probably around £50 a bird and the bag is of little consequence to those that are apparently dumping it.

Quite a contrast to a days shooting where the bag is split between guns and beaters.

If that’s the case then as bad as the ( deserved or not ) reputation that driven shooting already has, it’s not a great endorsement for the ‘sport’ is it? Nor one of sustainability or anything else you care to mention regarding shooting live quarry for that matter. 
We really are our own worse enemies aren’t we? 
If the huge revenue garnering industry which driven shooting is, goes, it will drag all live quarry shooting down with it. 

[London Best]

5 minutes ago, Scully said:
If the huge revenue garnering industry which driven shooting is, goes, it will drag all live quarry shooting down with it. 

This, exactly, nail on head, 100%.

6 minutes ago, Scully said:

If the huge revenue garnering industry which driven shooting is, goes, it will drag all live quarry shooting down with it. 

This, exactly, nail on head, 100%.

[islandgun]

3 minutes ago, Scully said:

If that’s the case then as bad as the ( deserved or not ) reputation that driven shooting already has, it’s not a great endorsement for the ‘sport’ is it? Nor one of sustainability or anything else you care to mention regarding shooting live quarry for that matter. 
We really are our own worse enemies aren’t we? 
If the huge revenue garnering industry which driven shooting is, goes, it will drag all live quarry shooting down with it. 

Indeed, the business is making targets, as I alluded earlier, clays would work, would it not be possible to arrange traps that simulated driven birds over a team of guns. mind you the beaters would be a bit idle

[London Best]

2 minutes ago, islandgun said:

Indeed, the business is making targets, as I alluded earlier, clays would work, would it not be possible to arrange traps that simulated driven birds over a team of guns. mind you the beaters would be a bit idle

That is already done.......a lot. 
It is nothing like driven game. 
Frankly, it’s boring.

[wymberley]

8 minutes ago, Scully said:

If that’s the case then as bad as the ( deserved or not ) reputation that driven shooting already has, it’s not a great endorsement for the ‘sport’ is it? Nor one of sustainability or anything else you care to mention regarding shooting live quarry for that matter. 
We really are our own worse enemies aren’t we? 
If the huge revenue garnering industry which driven shooting is, goes, it will drag all live quarry shooting down with it. 

Nah, Mate, the rest of us will be shooting rats, rabbits and assorted wearing second hand quality Tweed off Ebay and dirt cheap Purdeys or Boss' from Wabbitbosher.

[jall25]

7 minutes ago, islandgun said:

Indeed, the business is making targets, as I alluded earlier, clays would work, would it not be possible to arrange traps that simulated driven birds over a team of guns. mind you the beaters would be a bit idle

 

I agree with Scully if driven went - the prices of birds to buy / feed would put many a walked up shoot out of business . I would then fear the lack of conservation type minded shooters - coppicing / planting / laying hedges etc  

Our driven shoots feeds circa 4.5/5 t of wild bird seeds to the song birds as well as the pheasants 

I wonder if we need to change the name then of pheasant to get more people to eat it

Like 

COW IS BEEF

PIG IS PORK

PHEASANT could be CHICKOLLITA ? 

They did it with fish 

4 minutes ago, London Best said:

That is already done.......a lot. 
It is nothing like driven game. 
Frankly, it’s boring.

Yeah - it OK - but its nothing like live shooting

I like seeing the dogs work too 

Edited December 24, 2023 by jall25

[Konor]

24 minutes ago, Scully said:

If that’s the case then as bad as the ( deserved or not ) reputation that driven shooting already has, it’s not a great endorsement for the ‘sport’ is it? Nor one of sustainability or anything else you care to mention regarding shooting live quarry for that matter. 
We really are our own worse enemies aren’t we? 
If the huge revenue garnering industry which driven shooting is, goes, it will drag all live quarry shooting down with it. 

I don’t see any parallel between  putting down thousands of birds ,shooting hundreds in a day then dumping the bodies as a business and walking up or flighting a few birds then either eating the bag or sharing with friends.

Some shooters are other shooters worse enemies you only have to browse YouTube to see the truth in that.

 

[islandgun]

14 minutes ago, London Best said:

That is already done.......a lot. 
It is nothing like driven game. 
Frankly, it’s boring.

I can see that

 

12 minutes ago, jall25 said:

 

I agree with Scully if driven went - the prices of birds to buy / feed would put many a walked up shoot out of business . I would then fear the lack of conservation type minded shooters - coppicing / planting / laying hedges etc  

Our driven shoots feeds circa 4.5/5 t of wild bird seeds to the song birds as well as the pheasants 

I wonder if we need to change the name then of pheasant to get more people to eat it

Like 

COW IS BEEF

PIG IS PORK

PHEASANT could be CHICKOLLITA ? 

They did it with fish 

Yeah - it OK - but its nothing like live shooting

I like seeing the dogs work too 

Can also agree with that.

Pheasant could be " Wood Hen"...... free range nuggets and fillet.😉

 

[Konor]

22 minutes ago, London Best said:

That is already done.......a lot. 
It is nothing like driven game. 
Frankly, it’s boring.

Speaking as a wildfowler and roughshooter ,ideally just me and the dog. I can think of nothing more boring than being stood on a peg shooting pheasants flushed over me.I would rather spend the day on a driven bird clay stand for the challenge and stick to my hunting/shooting but each to their own.

 

[marsh man]

2 hours ago, Rim Fire said:

Not saying some can but am saying all dont and i have seen this with my own eyes and don't bother to ask which shoot as i wont say because you normally ask this question when this topic comes up 

They shoot 3 to 400 birds days two to three times a week because it's a business not family or syndicut shoots 

You have hit the nail on the head , shooting big numbers two or three times a week is ran as a business , all the money pumped into setting up shooting these sort of numbers on nearly a daily basis have only around three months to get it back and try and make a profit , we have as far as I know only one big game game dealer in the whole of Norfolk where there are hundreds of small , medium , large and very large shoots , they cannot collect from them all and I doubt if they could even handle all the numbers that are shot . 

This is mainly why the helpers are told to help themselves and nobody ask questions what is done with the rest of the bag , I go home with half a dozen fresh Pheasants and what they do with the rest is up to them as one or two days later they will have roughly the same numbers to sort out all over again .

In some peoples eyes it is the wrong way to do things , but it's run purely as a business and there is certainly no shortage of guns willing to splash out there hard earnt money to take part in .    MM

Edited December 24, 2023 by marsh man

[Konor]

47 minutes ago, Scully said:

If the huge revenue garnering industry which driven shooting is, goes, it will drag all live quarry shooting down with it. 

Live quarry shooting thrived long before the existence of the majority of commercial shoots and still does in many areas. I expect it would continue at a sustainable level if those commercial shoots that are unable to put their shot game into the food chain ceased to exist.

[clangerman]

thought people would have learnt fox hunting trying to scare up support with the one go all go cobblers brings karma but no same mistake which will bring the same result! 

[Scully]

Just now, Konor said:

Live quarry shooting thrived long before the existence of the majority of commercial shoots and still does in many areas. I expect it would continue at a sustainable level if those commercial shoots that are unable to put their shot game into the food chain ceased to exist.

But it didn’t ‘thrive’ at all, it merely existed, and certainly not available to the majority of working class people like it is today. It thrives today. 
The popularity of shooting in the UK which exists today and attracts huge amounts of revenue to this country is all down to driven shooting. 
You may not see the parallels between commercial driven shooting and other shooting, but they certainly exist. 
Even those on walked up days rely on buying birds from commercial suppliers. 
I’m a rough shooter and a pest controller first and foremost, but also a member of a small syndicate in which on average we shoot about 20 birds per shoot. We buy 300 per season and shoot around 40 to 50% of them, which are taken by the guns to either eat or give away. There are many many more shoots of similar sizes, all dependant on commercial bird suppliers. 
For shoots of any size to simply dump the days bag is simply idleness, indefensible and shortsighted, and hugely damaging to shooting in general.
Driven shooting has some seriously wealthy and influential supporters, but if it goes who will speak up for some bloke who only wants to shoot one or two for the pot?If commercial driven shooting goes we will lose some serious support.
Killing for recreation or ‘sport’ is understandably frowned upon, and unless you’re a professional pest controller, killing for recreation is what you’re doing. We’re all doing it for the same reason, whether you’re shooting 20 pheasants on a peg, half a dozen grouse in a butt, or a couple of geese or ducks to shove in your bag to take home for the pot. None of us need to do it to eat, but it’s what we love doing. We enjoy it. 
Dumping any killed edible quarry is just detestable, and those responsible should be ashamed. 

[8 shot]

Deer is the next big problem coming over the horizon, how to ethically reduce and then control there number while utilising there meat. I can't give away the very small amount of Venison I shoot after Christmas.

[Scully]

8 minutes ago, 8 shot said:

Deer is the next big problem coming over the horizon, how to ethically reduce and then control there number while utilising there meat. I can't give away the very small amount of Venison I shoot after Christmas.

Which is exactly why I stopped shooting Roe; nobody wanted the meat. Even the local butcher wouldn’t take them. 
As **** law would have it, a game dealer I used to supply with all manner of game, recently got in touch to say he’s started up again! 🤷‍♂️

[Konor]

55 minutes ago, Scully said:

But it didn’t ‘thrive’ at all, it merely existed, and certainly not available to the majority of working class people like it is today. It thrives today. 

All the people I knew back in the 1970s that shot were working class. They shot the foreshore and inland walked up wild pheasants ,rabbits and flighted duck. They predominantly worked in forestry and farming and either had access to ground to shoot over or knew people through school or work that had access to ground to shoot over. The estates or farms that were shot over which put down birds were local business folk or farmers and a lot of that was invite only. Commercial shooting on the scale we now have did not exist.

If by thriving Scully you mean larger bags than could be taken away by those participating then yes it merely existed.

I’m not looking at things through rise tinted spectacles I remember a shoot ,walked up composed of anyone who had a gun known to the farmer whose ground we were shooting over. We had around 50 birds for about 15 guns out . The birds were left on concrete to be picked up by the guns as they left from a post shoot drink. At least half of them were left. The mindset of being prepared to enjoy the shoot but too lazy to take a few birds for the table was as wrong then as it is now.

I agree driven shooting thrives today, as long as you have the money to pay for the driven bird and to dress appropriately to project the image it’s fill your boots time lads.

Much like yourself Scully I’m a member of a small walk and shoot syndicate composed of predominantly local farmers and I enjoy the social side of it I do however far prefer a walk with the dog putting up a woodcock or mallard ,rabbit or pheasant. As I said it’s horses for courses.

As an aside I take some roe each year around 7 or 8 and I honestly have more folk asking for venison than deer on the ground

Edited December 24, 2023 by Konor
Additional sentence added

[London Best]

1 hour ago, Konor said:

Speaking as a wildfowler and roughshooter ,ideally just me and the dog. I can think of nothing more boring than being stood on a peg shooting pheasants flushed over me.I would rather spend the day on a driven bird clay stand for the challenge and stick to my hunting/shooting but each to their own.

 

Speaking as a Wildfowler and rough shooter of over sixty years experience, I think I am entitled to disagree with you. I find driven shooting to be the most exciting wing shooting of all, far from being boring. 
And if live shooting were to be banned I would not be spending my days breaking boring clay saucers, I would give up shooting.

[Konor]

11 minutes ago, London Best said:

Speaking as a Wildfowler and rough shooter of over sixty years experience, I think I am entitled to disagree with you. I find driven shooting to be the most exciting wing shooting of all, far from being boring. 
And if live shooting were to be banned I would not be spending my days breaking boring clay saucers, I would give up shooting.

As a rough shooter of over 50 years experience and having had invites to some very good driven shoots I can honestly say that I have enjoyed roost shooting for pigeons and flighted duck either under the moon or onto a river with its accompanying unpredictability far more than shooting standing rooted to a peg. As I say horses for courses London best.

Personally I don’t see much difference in the mechanics of taking a driven clay or driven pheasant and the latter quick shot then onto the next lacks the excitement and anticipation involved when taking on a flighted goose or incoming/outgoing duck over marshland  Each to their own ,I am delighted that you enjoy your driven shooting and long may you continue to do so.

 

[London Best]

1 minute ago, Konor said:

As a rough shooter of over 50 years experience and having had invites to some very good driven shoots I can honestly say that I have enjoyed roost shooting for pigeons and flighted duck either under the moon or onto a river with its accompanying unpredictability far more than shooting standing rooted to a peg. As I say horses for courses London best.

Personally I don’t see much difference in the mechanics of taking a driven clay or driven pheasant and the latter quick shot then onto the next lacks the excitement and anticipation involved when taking on a flighted goose or incoming/outgoing duck over marshland  Each to their own ,I am delighted that you enjoy your driven shooting and long may you continue to do so.

 

I have to agree about the flighted duck/geese/pigeons being very exciting.........when you are in the right spot at the right time. Some of the frustrating times, not so exciting.  
Having done it, I can find no comparison between shooting a clay and any driven game. 
Have a good Christmas and enjoy the rest of your season.

[Konor]

16 minutes ago, London Best said:

Have a good Christmas and enjoy the rest of your season.

Merry Christmas to you too, shooting is a broad church and there’s far more that unites than divides us. The common denominator is putting birds in the bag and I think we both agree that doing so brings us both a lot of enjoyment.

[marsh man]

1 hour ago, London Best said:

Speaking as a Wildfowler and rough shooter of over sixty years experience, I think I am entitled to disagree with you. I find driven shooting to be the most exciting wing shooting of all, far from being boring. 
And if live shooting were to be banned I would not be spending my days breaking boring clay saucers, I would give up shooting.

We must be of similar age L B as I have also had over 60 years experience of rough shooting and wildfowling with about 60 years of Pigeon shooting thrown in for good measure , I have also  been very lucky with being a gun in a very good game shoot in Norfolk and been invited on some very good shoots in East Anglia , if I had to rate what I would prefer in priority it would be hard to decide between the first three with driven shooting easily at number four , I haven't got the slightest bit of interest in clay shooting so no need to consider it .

We have seen the rise and fall in various types of shotgun shooting over the years and I well remember when I got an invite at a wild English Partridge shoot and walked them up every year over the marshes , I will never go on another one , and I doubt there is one English Partridge on the five miles of marshes I still wander over , so where we will be in a few years time and what will be the talking point is any ones guess .    MERRY CHRISTMAS            MM