Gordon R Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 I really don't see any problem. Cosy phone call to BASC and it will all be sorted. 🙂 I find Conor's approach to be quite childlike and head in the sand. I honestly think it would be in BASC's interest to find someone to post on Pigeonwatch, who is able to debate. At the moment, it is embarrassing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 10 hours ago, harkom said: unbiased opinion then? Well he’s obviously biased! He’s employed by Gamebore and has a job to do, but you can’t do that if the product doesn’t work! He told us that amongst other high bird shoots, they had been tried at Warter Priory. I used their Super Steel 3’s through non steel proofed guns ( admittedly with plastic wads as they all were back then ) on duck and bolting rabbits way back, and can vouch for their effectiveness on both. The only drawback at those ranges however, was that the rabbits were inedible. Wide open chokes like skeet or cylinder are the order of the day if using steel for such work if they’re to be eaten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 10 hours ago, Konor said: Yawn. Why do I get the feeling that the whole BASC approach to the use of lead shot is a charade. There appears to be no sign of any constructive proposals from BASC to minimise the impact of the proposed changes in situations for example where the use of lead shot is considered of little consequence or where heirloomed vintage damascus barrelled guns are used where the combined weight of lead added to the environment by such guns ,much like air guns ,is minimal in comparison to the total lead estimated to be spread by all shotguns combined. Unfortunately I don’t think BASC will have any leverage when it comes to negotiating any concessions surrounding the move away from lead ammunition as they have nothing to negotiate with having already conceded early on that they were in favour of a ban on the use of lead ammunition , albeit voluntary. In conclusion What a mess and all unfortunately compounded by woeful leadership and poor decision making from the self proclaimed” Voice of shooting “ Succinctly put. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted January 13 Author Report Share Posted January 13 For those reading this thread for first time the the January 2024 episode of BASC's podcast is now live - focusing on the voluntary move away from lead shot for live quarry shooting. Click the link below to listen to the various interviews on this topic. https://basc.org.uk/podcast/ As we enter the fifth year of the voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting we would like to know your opinions. Have your views on lead, or the transition itself, changed in any way? We will ask you several questions about your shooting activities, your views on available ammunition, and any concerns you might still have regarding the transition or use of non-lead ammunition. We are asking all active live quarry shooters to take part in our Lead Shot Transition Survey. Your views are important to us and will help shape our plans. The survey is anonymous, and your details will not be shared with anyone outside of the Association. You have until midday on Wednesday 17 January to complete it. Click the link below to start the survey. https://www.research.net/r/BASC-VLST If you have any queries regarding the survey please email surveys@basc.org.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 Why would BASC take any notice of the survey? They don't take any notice of questions on this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 They obviously have an agenda !! So moving forward what plans are Basc lobbying to have in place for the small bores short chambers guns Damascus barrel guns muzzle loaders ect what are they going to do with all the lead ammunition that will be left over are they lobbying for a buy back scheme how will it be policed and who’s going to pick up the bill will it actually make game more saleable if so won’t venison also be considered toxic if still shot with lead and put into the food chain just a few questions that probably won’t be answered 🤔 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konor Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 (edited) I predict that BASC will quite happily accept the introduction of legislative enforcement of a lead ban. Their refusal to answer any concerns on this forum and the absence of proposals to create concessions is testament to the fact that their priority does not lie with their members who pay their wages but possibly with a play to ingratiate themselves and raise their profile with government ironically as the voice of shooting . Of course if they can manipulate the survey figures to show that they are in step with the survey findings then they can easily whitewash over their inconsistent and contradictory stance and their lack of action to secure any concessions on the use of lead shot will become irrelevant. We don’t even know what support for a voluntary ban and at the same time a refusal to accept any further legislation on the use of lead shot actually means as Conor refuses to clarify this apparent contradictory stance. In his role as representative of BASC on the forum Conor is keen to portray those who question BASC’s record on representing the average field sports follower as belligerent BASC bashers perhaps his inaction in clarifying BASC’s policies and intent justifies that bashing. Edited January 13 by Konor Addition Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted January 13 Author Report Share Posted January 13 I would recommend those reading this thread with an interest in the voluntary transition to keep an eye on the BASC events page for sustainable ammunition days near them where you can try various non-lead products and speak to experts from BASC and ask all the questions you wish. https://events.basc.org.uk/events/ Attendees have positive feedback on the experience. Perhaps some PW members could attend an event and provide feedback. Here is an article from 2021 about the experience: https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/guns/ammunition/why-sustainable-ammunition-days-are-a-superb-introduction-to-steel-shot-124018/ Here is a relevant excerpt from the BASC January 2024 podcast in the OP: https://www.facebook.com/BASCuk/videos/759946122706262/ @Old farrieras regards BASC's position on HSE restriction proposals please take the time to read BASC's consultation response which has lots of information in relation to your questions. The link to the webpage summary is below and if you scroll to end of page you will see two docs available to download. https://basc.org.uk/basc-response-to-hse-lead-ammunition-consultation/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konor Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 (edited) 21 hours ago, Konor said: There appears to be no sign of any constructive proposals from BASC to minimise the impact of the proposed changes in situations for example where …….heirloomed vintage damascus barrelled guns are used where the combined weight of lead added to the environment by such guns ,much like air guns ,is minimal in comparison to the total lead estimated to be spread by all shotguns combined. Conor I can’t see any reference to the above points in any of your suggested reading perhaps you could comment to clarify BASC’s position. Edited January 13 by Konor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Konor said: Conor I can’t see any reference to the above points in any of your suggested reading perhaps you could comment to clarify BASC’s position. Don't hold your breath waiting. Edited January 13 by Newbie to this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted January 13 Author Report Share Posted January 13 26 minutes ago, Konor said: Conor I can’t see any reference to the above points in any of your suggested reading perhaps you could comment to clarify BASC’s position. As per its consultation response docs, BASC has called on HSE to ensure that any proposals for live quarry shooting with lead shot have realistic time frames before any restrictions come into force and to implement a buy-back scheme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konor Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 14 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: As per its consultation response docs, BASC has called on HSE to ensure that any proposals for live quarry shooting with lead shot have realistic time frames before any restrictions come into force and to implement a buy-back scheme. If you read over my post you will see that your reply is not relevant to the question I have asked. Are you suggesting that a buy back scheme or realistic time frames before any restrictions come into force would be relevant to concessions to cover the use of lead shot in Damascus barrelled shotguns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted January 13 Author Report Share Posted January 13 10 minutes ago, Konor said: If you read over my post you will see that your reply is not relevant to the question I have asked. Are you suggesting that a buy back scheme or realistic time frames before any restrictions come into force would be relevant to concessions to cover the use of lead shot in Damascus barrelled shotguns For any use of lead shot for live quarry shooting, including the use of lead shot in Damascus barrelled shotguns for live quarry shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konor Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 19 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: For any use of lead shot for live quarry shooting, including the use of lead shot in Damascus barrelled shotguns for live quarry shooting. For clarity’s sake I think you are saying that the use of lead shot in Damascus barrelled shotguns will be under the same restrictions as any modern shotgun ie that BASC will not be seeking any concessions for Damascus barrelled shotguns though in fairness you haven’t made that crystal clear. Could you clarify your reference to realistic time frames and buy back scheme in your reply to my specific question regarding Damascus barrelled shotguns ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konor Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 I hope you won’t take this the wrong way Conor but your reply reminds me of a Morecambe and Wise sketch with Andre Previn where Eric’s punchline is “I am playing the right notes just not necessarily in the right order” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 2 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said: I would recommend those reading this thread with an interest in the voluntary transition to keep an eye on the BASC events page for sustainable ammunition days near them where you can try various non-lead products and speak to experts from BASC and ask all the questions you wish. https://events.basc.org.uk/events/ Attendees have positive feedback on the experience. Perhaps some PW members could attend an event and provide feedback. Here is an article from 2021 about the experience: https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/guns/ammunition/why-sustainable-ammunition-days-are-a-superb-introduction-to-steel-shot-124018/ Here is a relevant excerpt from the BASC January 2024 podcast in the OP: https://www.facebook.com/BASCuk/videos/759946122706262/ @Old farrieras regards BASC's position on HSE restriction proposals please take the time to read BASC's consultation response which has lots of information in relation to your questions. The link to the webpage summary is below and if you scroll to end of page you will see two docs available to download. https://basc.org.uk/basc-response-to-hse-lead-ammunition-consultation/ I’d like to go however geographically it’s expensive and my guns don’t fit your criteria so a expensive day to find out what? sorry sir to much choke chambers to short wrong caliber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konor Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 (edited) Forcing cones too short ,lead into choke too short and abrupt. The largely Birmingham built side by side game guns we cherish were not designed to be used with steel and few will be suited to it ,even less so the wand like sidelocks built with what is now considered minimal minimum barrel wall thickness. Steel in my treasured old English boxlocks ? Not likely. And that’s before we even get into the issue of range and edibility of game shot. Edited January 13 by Konor Addition Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 I continue to be amazed at Conor's ability to totally disregard questions. Morecambe and Wise would be insulted at the comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith 66 Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 I attempted to fill in the Transition to lead shot survey last week. Came to the last question & it kept refusing to allow me to finish it. I emailed Basc survey dept Querying why the survey would not complete & recieved this answer. "Thank you for your email, and please accept our apologies for the confusion. Unfortunately, we were very restricted by the limitations of the survey software and that question requires a different number for each of the 11 row options. Once each option has a different rating number the survey will allow you to move on. That question is the last one, so you will not have missed any others. Thank you for helping us with this project. Kind regards. Surveys team I replied, "Thanks for the swift reply. So I have to put a different rating number for each question? Not allowed to use the same number more than once? Surely that produces a meaningless result! Regards Keith Their reply "No problem at all. Unfortunately, that’s how the rating scale in the last question works, no two rows/options can have the same rating. Kind regards. Survey team At this point i finished the survey by simply putting 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc & it completed. I have been a BASC member since the Wagbi days & frankly i was amazed this survey was thought fit to put out. If you put surveys out like this it is counter productive, we are not thick & a survey set up in this was is flawed by its very nature to give a skewed result. A surveys results should show what the person filling it in thinks. Basc should scrap this "survey" as it cannot be relied upon to give an honest result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted January 14 Report Share Posted January 14 8 hours ago, Keith 66 said: Basc should scrap this "survey" as it cannot be relied upon to give an honest result Maybe that is by design 🤔 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Down South Posted January 14 Report Share Posted January 14 12 hours ago, Old farrier said: I’d like to go however geographically it’s expensive and my guns don’t fit your criteria so a expensive day to find out what? sorry sir to much choke chambers to short wrong caliber As above! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genghis Posted January 14 Report Share Posted January 14 12 hours ago, Keith 66 said: I attempted to fill in the Transition to lead shot survey last week. Came to the last question & it kept refusing to allow me to finish it. I emailed Basc survey dept Querying why the survey would not complete & recieved this answer. "Thank you for your email, and please accept our apologies for the confusion. Unfortunately, we were very restricted by the limitations of the survey software and that question requires a different number for each of the 11 row options. Once each option has a different rating number the survey will allow you to move on. That question is the last one, so you will not have missed any others. Thank you for helping us with this project. Kind regards. Surveys team I replied, "Thanks for the swift reply. So I have to put a different rating number for each question? Not allowed to use the same number more than once? Surely that produces a meaningless result! Regards Keith Their reply "No problem at all. Unfortunately, that’s how the rating scale in the last question works, no two rows/options can have the same rating. Kind regards. Survey team At this point i finished the survey by simply putting 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc & it completed. I have been a BASC member since the Wagbi days & frankly i was amazed this survey was thought fit to put out. If you put surveys out like this it is counter productive, we are not thick & a survey set up in this was is flawed by its very nature to give a skewed result. A surveys results should show what the person filling it in thinks. Basc should scrap this "survey" as it cannot be relied upon to give an honest result. I’ve not submitted the survey as I’m mostly a clay shooter, but I checked the above out of interest. They could do with explaining it better, but what they’re asking is for you to rank the 11 factors in order of most significant to least significant. It’s probably not the best way to collect data though as some shooters may judge 2 factors to be equally important and having to choose one over the other in this instance could lead to misleading results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fil Posted January 14 Report Share Posted January 14 21 hours ago, Old farrier said: will it actually make game more saleable Also one of my opinions/questions on the non lead debate. The then BGA, BASC, et al were saying one of the great reasons from moving away from lead would get lots more game into the supermarkets. Wishful thinking IMO. Go back a number of years when no one cared whether game was shot with lead or not (and a lot like me still don't) did we see supermarket aisles brimming with shot birds?? NO! We didn't. There were a few oven ready pheasants a brace of partridge and some pigeons from memory. What makes them now think that just because the bird was shot with non lead the supermarkets will suddenly fill their meat aisles? My opinion is that it has nothing to do with lead. It is about public opinion. The antis would have a field day in the supermarket aisles. If little Phoebe and Harriet are in the milk aisle pouring out all the milk on floor in protest because of the poor cows and their farts destroying the planet then you know what's going to happen if there was all kinds of shot birds on sale. Shot by those nasty people.. Toffs with their guns. It isn't happening. I am not buying the argument that it will introduce more people to game meat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted January 14 Report Share Posted January 14 7 minutes ago, Fil said: Also one of my opinions/questions on the non lead debate. The then BGA, BASC, et al were saying one of the great reasons from moving away from lead would get lots more game into the supermarkets. Wishful thinking IMO. Go back a number of years when no one cared whether game was shot with lead or not (and a lot like me still don't) did we see supermarket aisles brimming with shot birds?? NO! We didn't. There were a few oven ready pheasants a brace of partridge and some pigeons from memory. What makes them now think that just because the bird was shot with non lead the supermarkets will suddenly fill their meat aisles? My opinion is that it has nothing to do with lead. It is about public opinion. The antis would have a field day in the supermarket aisles. If little Phoebe and Harriet are in the milk aisle pouring out all the milk on floor in protest because of the poor cows and their farts destroying the planet then you know what's going to happen if there was all kinds of shot birds on sale. Shot by those nasty people.. Toffs with their guns. It isn't happening. I am not buying the argument that it will introduce more people to game meat. To add to this more steel pellets to the cartridge more shot needed to kill the bird equals more unsaleable inedible birds this season I have loaded steel in one barrel lead in the other then trying to shoot left and right on similar height birds at ranges from normal to more extreme when I have been successful iv sent the dogs have retrieved them both immediately and they were tied together for later inspection ok it’s not the most reliable scientific method but in each case the lead shot birds have been less damaged anyone tried similar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted January 14 Report Share Posted January 14 38 minutes ago, Old farrier said: ok it’s not the most reliable scientific method but in each case the lead shot birds have been less damaged Don't knock it (or yourself). With shotguns science can only get you into the ballpark; empirical data will put you in the centre circle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts