BASC update on voluntary transition away from lead shot and and single-use plastics for live quarry

[PeterHenry]

4 minutes ago, London Best said:

Define a ‘big bag’.

Is it just one which is twice the bag you normally shoot?

Exactly 

[Old farrier]

4 hours ago, Fellside said:

Yes a good thought. However I still think small farm syndicates (circa 500 poults) are hugely important for biodiversity. We do need those as well. Often they form a wildlife oasis surrounded by an intensively farmed ‘green desert’. Personally, I really enjoy smaller days, where there is the pressure (and thrill) of making the shot count, because there isn’t a constant stream of pheasants. I don’t want to knock the big shoots, as they are an important part of our rural economy, but scaling down a little might be an idea. Reducing live quarry to the status of many targets - rather like clays - seems somehow unattractive. Ramble over. 

The biggest problem with small shoots is vermin and predator control 

each of the predators eat 365 days a year there is massive pressure on the 500 poults from the casual rambler blackberry pickers dog Walker the weather and predation on not only the poults but also on the feed in the cover crops along with the supplementary feeding that’s eaten by deer badgers squirrels and rats 

Just my thoughts 

to anyone going down this path be prepared for hard work and long days 😊

 

[London Best]

There is no such thing as a part time gamekeeper!

2 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

The biggest problem with small shoots is vermin and predator control 

each of the predators eat 365 days a year there is massive pressure on the 500 poults from the casual rambler blackberry pickers dog Walker the weather and predation on not only the poults but also on the feed in the cover crops along with the supplementary feeding that’s eaten by deer badgers squirrels and rats 

Just my thoughts 

to anyone going down this path be prepared for hard work and long days 😊

 

 

[Fellside]

19 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

The biggest problem with small shoots is vermin and predator control 

each of the predators eat 365 days a year there is massive pressure on the 500 poults from the casual rambler blackberry pickers dog Walker the weather and predation on not only the poults but also on the feed in the cover crops along with the supplementary feeding that’s eaten by deer badgers squirrels and rats 

Just my thoughts 

to anyone going down this path be prepared for hard work and long days 😊

 

In all honesty, with a decent team on the job I’ve seen some cracking little farm shoots. Often the syndicate members become very enthusiastic part time keepers so to speak. I think it can go horribly wrong if the syndicate aren’t very motivated (or very well lead) - and it’s left to a couple of overworked volunteers to cary the weight of it all. I’ve seen that too many times. 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Here is a nice example of a wild bird shoot, recognised for its efforts in Purdey Awards.

https://www.ponsonbyfarms.co.uk/shoot

 

[jall25]

18 hours ago, Konor said:

That must be very satisfying for you. Akin to catching a trout on a fly you’ve tied yourself.

 

Yes - i actually really like the wildlife more than the shooting i think 

17 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Here is a nice example of a wild bird shoot, recognised for its efforts in Purdey Awards.

https://www.ponsonbyfarms.co.uk/shoot

 

 

Not read it all - but totally disagree that a fox is no threat after July !

1 hour ago, Old farrier said:

The biggest problem with small shoots is vermin and predator control 

each of the predators eat 365 days a year there is massive pressure on the 500 poults from the casual rambler blackberry pickers dog Walker the weather and predation on not only the poults but also on the feed in the cover crops along with the supplementary feeding that’s eaten by deer badgers squirrels and rats 

Just my thoughts 

to anyone going down this path be prepared for hard work and long days 😊

 

 

Yes it funny isnt it how so many of the people involved want to come and shoot the vermin / fox / deer - until its cold - raining - a weekday - the clocks have changed - its a friday night - its a saturday night - its a sunday night ! hahahahahaha

I love it 

[Old farrier]

1 hour ago, Fellside said:

In all honesty, with a decent team on the job I’ve seen some cracking little farm shoots. Often the syndicate members become very enthusiastic part time keepers so to speak. I think it can go horribly wrong if the syndicate aren’t very motivated (or very well lead) - and it’s left to a couple of overworked volunteers to cary the weight of it all. I’ve seen that too many times. 

Me to if they can’t drive to a feed station it’s not done 

having been there and got some good results and good returns I know how hard it is 

the better the team the easier it is 

23 minutes ago, jall25 said:

 

Yes - i actually really like the wildlife more than the shooting i think 

 

Not read it all - but totally disagree that a fox is no threat after July !

 

Yes it funny isnt it how so many of the people involved want to come and shoot the vermin / fox / deer - until its cold - raining - a weekday - the clocks have changed - its a friday night - its a saturday night - its a sunday night ! hahahahahaha

I love it 

Bang on 

I rarely take a gun in daylight my hands are always carrying tools or fence posts feeders drinkers wire or something to repair something 😂

[Old farrier]

49 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Here is a nice example of a wild bird shoot, recognised for its efforts in Purdey Awards.

https://www.ponsonbyfarms.co.uk/shoot

 

Yea they shot 140 in a day about half of what were talking about 300 poults 

no total acreage mentioned along with access to massive farm machinery and grants for wildlife management and to be honest they were first out of six entries 

were (I think) talking about a few like minded individuals who throw in a few £ and a lot of work to get a days shooting a rather different scenario 

[Konor]

1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Here is a nice example of a wild bird shoot, recognised for its efforts in Purdey Awards.

https://www.ponsonbyfarms.co.uk/shoot

 

An enjoyable read 👍

[Konor]

4 hours ago, PeterHenry said:

Controversial?

How on earth would you go about it?

It sounds awfully similar to something the Welsh Government is trying to achieve at the moment.

You can't go off on one at John Swift, et al. for damaging shooting and then - as I read it - state in an ideal world you would stop shoots over a certain size.

Pot calling kettle black springs to mind...

I would take steel shot over your sugestion any day of the week - and that's coming from somone who has no intrest in big bags whatsoever.

I didn’t say I would stop any shoots of any size but it would certainly be an improvement for the future of game shooting if the tally for one gun on one drive didn’t exceed the whole days bag that is the norm on smaller shoots. PR wise we don’t do ourselves any favours with some of the YouTube footage that I’ve watched. It definitely doesn’t give the impression of shooter conservationists to the casual viewer.

Bag wise our farmer syndicate averages around 30 each day for 8 days and 10 guns. Like jall25 I enjoy the countryside and wildlife as much ,probably more ,than the bag. I’ve taken 4 good birds on one drive and stopped to allow someone to move onto my peg as I feel I’ve been lucky enough on the day.

I far prefer a walked up day with dogs and a couple of friends with little plan and being flexible in how the day proceeds. A varied bag of pheasant ,duck ,woodcock ,pigeon and rabbit with perhaps the odd goose is my ideal. Frankly I find standing on a peg boring and if I want to shoot 50 to a hundred cartridges I would rather take on imaginatively positioned clay traps in a natural setting eg Cluny ,Bisley at Braidwood or Forest Enterprise at Saint Johns Town of Dalry.  
Just my personal opinion and I accept not everyone else’s best option it’s probably been shaped both by my upbringing in wildfowling where a couple of wigeon and a Pinkfoot  for the day were reasons to to celebrate and the fact that I usually shoot with friends not strangers where the social aspect is always greater than the size of the bag.

Edited April 16 by Konor

[jall25]

Made another pond today - great for wildlife 

[PeterHenry]

1 hour ago, Konor said:

I didn’t say I would stop any shoots of any size but it would certainly be an improvement for the future of game shooting if the tally for one gun on one drive didn’t exceed the whole days bag that is the norm on smaller shoots. PR wise we don’t do ourselves any favours with some of the YouTube footage that I’ve watched. It definitely doesn’t give the impression of shooter conservationists to the casual viewer.

Bag wise our farmer syndicate averages around 30 each day for 8 days and 10 guns. Like jall25 I enjoy the countryside and wildlife as much ,probably more ,than the bag. I’ve taken 4 good birds on one drive and stopped to allow someone to move onto my peg as I feel I’ve been lucky enough on the day.

I far prefer a walked up day with dogs and a couple of friends with little plan and being flexible in how the day proceeds. A varied bag of pheasant ,duck ,woodcock ,pigeon and rabbit with perhaps the odd goose is my ideal. Frankly I find standing on a peg boring and if I want to shoot 50 to a hundred cartridges I would rather take on imaginatively positioned clay traps in a natural setting eg Cluny ,Bisley at Braidwood or Forest Enterprise at Saint Johns Town of Dalry.  
Just my personal opinion and I accept not everyone else’s best option it’s probably been shaped both by my upbringing in wildfowling where a couple of wigeon and a Pinkfoot  for the day were reasons to to celebrate and the fact that I usually shoot with friends not strangers where the social aspect is always greater than the size of the bag.

Its strange, because the bags and type of shooting you favour are exactly the sort I favour. The bag on my little syndicate goes perhaps above 20 on a good day. There are certainly a lot of days where its less than that.

But is it not to be presumed that if you were in a possition of any influence, you would inforce your ideal? Or would it be voluntary?

And if it was inforced, how so? Bag limits? (US) Licencing for releasing birds? (Wales) licencing shoots themselves? (Scotland).

All of those things are far more damaging to the fabric of game shooting than the use of steel shot.

I share your concern about bags - but the way things are going, if left alone, those will come down anyway. Prices are rising, pockets are shrinking - and luxuries are the first things to be scaled back. It happened before - and I suspect it will happen again. 

Regardless, Its very easy to make shooting look bad on YouTube as far as the average person goes - it doesn't take Dave Carrie. It could just as easily be you or me with our handful of ducks.

I also suspect you will ultimately get your wish in the form of some kind of regulation - because that also seems to be the way things are going at the moment. But it certiantly won't shore up our shared pastime, and unlike BASC and the other orgs attempt with lead shot to divert the flow of things to shootings benefit, it'll be an actual, objective milestone towards the end of game shooting in Britain - and something to be resisted at every opportunity.

Edited April 16 by PeterHenry

[Old farrier]

25 minutes ago, jall25 said:

Made another pond today - great for wildlife 

That’s some great stuff you’re doing there it’s on my list of things to do fortunately have some wet ground that’s appropriate 

just need a imaganive machine operator and hire a big machine 

thanks for posting 

[Konor]

25 minutes ago, PeterHenry said:

Its strange, because the bags and type of shooting you favour are exactly the sort I favour. The bag on my little syndicate goes perhaps above 20 on a good day. There are certainly a lot of days where its less than that.

But is it not to be presumed that if you were in a possition of any influence, you would inforce your ideal? Or would it be voluntary?

And if it was inforced, how so? Bag limits? (US) Licencing for releasing birds? (Wales) licencing shoots themselves? (Scotland).

All of those things are far more damaging to the fabric of game shooting than the use of steel shot.

I share your concern about bags - but the way things are going, if left alone, those will come down anyway. Prices are rising, pockets are shrinking - and luxuries are the first things to be scaled back. It happened before - and I suspect it will happen again. 

Regardless, Its very easy to make shooting look bad on YouTube as far as the average person goes - it doesn't take Dave Carrie. It could just as easily be you or me with our handful of ducks.

I also suspect you will ultimately get your wish in the form of some kind of regulation - because that also seems to be the way things are going at the moment. But it certiantly won't shore up our shared pastime, and unlike BASC and the other orgs attempt with lead shot to divert the flow of things to shootings benefit, it'll be an actual, objective milestone towards the end of game shooting in Britain - and something to be resisted at every opportunity.

As the saying goes PeterHenry “Its not my world I’m just living in it “ Firstly I would not wish to be in the position you describe to have that influence and if I was unlucky enough to be in that position I wouldn’t be the man I am today. That said I would not be minded to enforce any restrictions on game shooting and would rather the environment existed where people would choose to cut back on excess voluntarily. The main reason for choosing not to enforce such ideals is because there are always unforeseen repercussions and once done it’s hard to go back.
I realise that whatever form sporting shooting takes and whether I personally wish to take part in that aspect of the sport or not I will always side with those who take part in fieldsports simply because overall I hope I share far more in common with them than with those who would see our sport stopped.

As I have said earlier in this thread I have no interest in enforced regulation where there is no measurable gain whether it is lead shot or shooting practices. I do feel that excesses in our sport do us no favours and wish those taking part in those excesses could see beyond the challenge of the next bird and were able to appreciate more because the sport is so much more than feathered clay targets.     Less sometimes is more and the ability to enjoy the whole day not just racking up a big bag is something I think all sportsmen should strive to achieve.

 

1 hour ago, jall25 said:

Made another pond today - great for wildlife 

Well done jall25 .Out of interest how many hours work did it take to get to that point?

[Conor O'Gorman]

3 hours ago, Old farrier said:

Yea they shot 140 in a day about half of what were talking about 300 poults 

no total acreage mentioned along with access to massive farm machinery and grants for wildlife management and to be honest they were first out of six entries 

were (I think) talking about a few like minded individuals who throw in a few £ and a lot of work to get a days shooting a rather different scenario 

They have certainly done well on wild greys despite the weather. Are you still interested in a phone call to talk all things perdix (and lead if you wish)?

[Old farrier]

19 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

They have certainly done well on wild greys despite the weather. Are you still interested in a phone call to talk all things perdix (and lead if you wish)?

No thanks it was you that was interested I know what it involves as you could see from my other post farming practice has changed so anything’s a waste of time 

As for lead I never volunteered for anything so I’ll stick with it thank you for as long as it’s legal or until there’s a affordable alternative for my 410 

[Conor O'Gorman]

14 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

No thanks it was you that was interested I know what it involves as you could see from my other post farming practice has changed so anything’s a waste of time 

As for lead I never volunteered for anything so I’ll stick with it thank you for as long as it’s legal or until there’s a affordable alternative for my 410 

Sorry to hear that, I was actually looking forward to chat with a fellow wild grey partridge enthusiast. If you change your mind you know where I am.

[PeterHenry]

1 hour ago, Konor said:

As the saying goes PeterHenry “Its not my world I’m just living in it “ Firstly I would not wish to be in the position you describe to have that influence and if I was unlucky enough to be in that position I wouldn’t be the man I am today. That said I would not be minded to enforce any restrictions on game shooting and would rather the environment existed where people would choose to cut back on excess voluntarily. The main reason for choosing not to enforce such ideals is because there are always unforeseen repercussions and once done it’s hard to go back.
I realise that whatever form sporting shooting takes and whether I personally wish to take part in that aspect of the sport or not I will always side with those who take part in fieldsports simply because overall I hope I share far more in common with them than with those who would see our sport stopped.

As I have said earlier in this thread I have no interest in enforced regulation where there is no measurable gain whether it is lead shot or shooting practices. I do feel that excesses in our sport do us no favours and wish those taking part in those excesses could see beyond the challenge of the next bird and were able to appreciate more because the sport is so much more than feathered clay targets.     Less sometimes is more and the ability to enjoy the whole day not just racking up a big bag is something I think all sportsmen should strive to achieve.

Again, I agree with a lot of that - which is why - unless I have missed or misread something - I'm still confused as to your opposition to BASC and others doing something about the massive PR issue (amongst other things) that is lead shot?

Even if we got the roll back of bag sizes we would ideally like - with game shooting being what it is - there would still be surplus game (albeit more saleable and hopefully at a price befitting its true value). But it would still contain something commonly held by most pepole to be toxic. That's a big PR issue - and it's a PR issue that confronts anyone who wants to, or even considers eating game - which is a big step closer to the consumer / public, than anything to do with bag sizes.

I get how irritating it is not to be able to use some of the beautiful old English and Scottish guns so readily. I've got a Scottish side by side that when I bought it was all I was ever going to need. To this day its still my favourite gun - but I'd rarther relegate it to the safe and increaseingly use a modern over and under with non toxic shot - because - as we both agree - public consent govens our ability to continue our sport - and if someone looks at a pheseant or partridge and it comes with a health warning on it, it's very difficult to see how that consent can be maintained.

[jall25]

2 hours ago, Konor said:

As the saying goes PeterHenry “Its not my world I’m just living in it “ Firstly I would not wish to be in the position you describe to have that influence and if I was unlucky enough to be in that position I wouldn’t be the man I am today. That said I would not be minded to enforce any restrictions on game shooting and would rather the environment existed where people would choose to cut back on excess voluntarily. The main reason for choosing not to enforce such ideals is because there are always unforeseen repercussions and once done it’s hard to go back.
I realise that whatever form sporting shooting takes and whether I personally wish to take part in that aspect of the sport or not I will always side with those who take part in fieldsports simply because overall I hope I share far more in common with them than with those who would see our sport stopped.

As I have said earlier in this thread I have no interest in enforced regulation where there is no measurable gain whether it is lead shot or shooting practices. I do feel that excesses in our sport do us no favours and wish those taking part in those excesses could see beyond the challenge of the next bird and were able to appreciate more because the sport is so much more than feathered clay targets.     Less sometimes is more and the ability to enjoy the whole day not just racking up a big bag is something I think all sportsmen should strive to achieve.

 

Well done jall25 .Out of interest how many hours work did it take to get to that point?

 

Hi Konor

I did that in about 10 hours 

I have made quite a few now 

This is about 45 metres long by 20 wide 

3 hours ago, Old farrier said:

That’s some great stuff you’re doing there it’s on my list of things to do fortunately have some wet ground that’s appropriate 

just need a imaganive machine operator and hire a big machine 

thanks for posting 

 

Yes it really is good for everything really 

I bought this a few years ago having never even sat on one in a bit of a whim - best thing i have ever bought 

Perhaps made 25 now 

[Minky]

On 04/04/2024 at 22:53, scarecrow243 said:

just another load of rubbish about lead shot  and basc should be ashamed of them self's too keep going on about this 5 year voluntary transition rubbish

Totally agree.  Basic is and has been so out of touch with the reality of shooting in general for many many years.   The reality is that there are thousands (5) of guns in Holts auctions regularly at give away prices. You only have to look at the guns for sale on here and how  many takers there are.!  The amount of gunshops/ dealers there are. They won't even consider buying in or even trading in because they get stuck with the trade in.  The cost of ammunition or components available,  or more to the point not available. The situation of shooting will not be viable with a very few aging shooters because there are  very very few people or youngsters coming into the sport.  The police make up more and more hoops to jump through. The  latest one that I've heard of is that partners / wives are to be asked if they approve of the applicant having guns.  Maybe your neighbours.   Who knows. Two options give up or continue if you can and be classed as a very odd dangerous person who goes out murdering defenceless animals and birds.  Non toxic shot, no  plastic.   Perhaps a flintlock shooting gravel would be more realistic.

[Konor]

12 hours ago, PeterHenry said:

Again, I agree with a lot of that - which is why - unless I have missed or misread something - I'm still confused as to your opposition to BASC and others doing something about the massive PR issue (amongst other things) that is lead shot?

Simply because it is a massive issue only for those who are using it as a convenient way of imposing restrictions on our sport. If there is a measurable impact on flora fauna and the environment from lead shot then it has probably been brought about by the overshooting of ground that occurs on commercial shoots. If that is so then commercial shoots should cease to use lead shot. Smaller shoots with bags which are more sustainable especially if the game shot is eaten by those doing the shooting are more acceptable to the general public.. If large commercial shoots have created this measurable problem with the deposition of lead shot in the countryside then the responsibility for fixing it should rest on their shoulders. I don’t think the public in general are aware of the problem to any great extent never mind clamouring for legislation to be introduced. As a result I don’t think your inability to use your old Scottish gun is proportionate to any detriment to the environment that doing so in a limited way causes. There is no appeasing these vocal minorities when it comes to animal rights and their politics are single issue extreme. That BASC et al have decided to fold to appease this minority public opinion is unfortunate but their refusal to negotiate the limited use of lead shot over ground where the impact would be minimal is a betrayal of those who follow a minimal impact sustainable branch of our sport. The insistence that the present voluntary transition will remain the status quo is absurd and is being used to allow us to walk into legislation because there is no will to fight against it which I consider a betrayal of grass roots shooters.The protection of commercial interests seem paramount and if the grass roots shooter suffers because of that then I most certainly don’t agree with it. If anyone agrees that the interests of commercial shooting come before my own then I disagree with them. Let the polluter pay is a commonly used phrase regarding the unacceptable pollution of our rivers which I think applies equally to lead shot in the environment.

You may well be content to relegate your Scottish gun to the safe ,I could more easily understand if you stated that you would no longer engage in excessive shooting on commercial shoots in order to minimise impact on the environment but not so much the pointless deprivation of using a vintage gun in response to the disproportionate cries from anti fieldsports enthusiasts and the acquiescence of our governing bodies.I most certainly will not be giving up using my Damascus barrelled side by side so there is where we have a massive difference in outlook.

I fortunately have no commercial interest in sport shooting and so my employment or income will not be impacted by any future legislation but to be brutally honest it would not upset me if the sale of game was outlawed .if excessive shooting has caused the problems associated with the deposition of lead shot to become significant then the logical conclusion is to get rid of the problem at source and have commercial shooters adapt to the new environment. No you will no longer be going through a slab or two of cartridges 6 days a week over the same ground you’ll have to make do with a box of  25 . Not happy ,then perhaps shooting live game is not for you so you will have to get your thrills elsewhere . Harsh ? No more harsher than expecting people to give up using their vintage guns in the interests of over commercialisation of shooting that sees bags of birds so great that they can’t all be given away and either have to be taken away by game dealers who are paid to carry that out or ,unbelievably, dumped
I’m not asking for public consent to continue my sport if that consent is based on their perception of shooting sports gained from excessive commercial shooting, in fact I’m more than capable of deciding whether my actions in procuring game for the table while enjoying myself immensely is defensible and don’t see why it should should hinge on the consent of ill informed others to continue to enjoy doing that.

A major part of the enjoyment of much of my sport ,and I’m sure of many others ,arises from walking the countryside it is carried out in coupled with the vintage equipment used in its pursuit. The quality of that experience diminishes if it is replaced with the ubiquitous and by contrast characterless over and under coupled with the repetitive nature of shooting on a predetermined peg.

Tin hat on 👍

Edited April 17 by Konor

[Konor]

8 hours ago, Minky said:

Totally agree.  Basic is and has been so out of touch with the reality of shooting in general for many many years.   The reality is that there are thousands (5) of guns in Holts auctions regularly at give away prices. You only have to look at the guns for sale on here and how  many takers there are.!  The amount of gunshops/ dealers there are. They won't even consider buying in or even trading in because they get stuck with the trade in.  The cost of ammunition or components available,  or more to the point not available. The situation of shooting will not be viable with a very few aging shooters because there are  very very few people or youngsters coming into the sport.  The police make up more and more hoops to jump through. The  latest one that I've heard of is that partners / wives are to be asked if they approve of the applicant having guns.  Maybe your neighbours.   Who knows. Two options give up or continue if you can and be classed as a very odd dangerous person who goes out murdering defenceless animals and birds.  Non toxic shot, no  plastic.   Perhaps a flintlock shooting gravel would be more realistic.

Arrogant pompous Toffs indifferent to animal suffering or potential psychopathic killers that allow the sport to satisfy their sadistic tendencies that is the two classes of shooter regularly portrayed as the norm by anti fieldsports enthusiasts ,that’s the big PR problem and puts the perceived problems with lead shot in perspective and in the shade .

”O wad some Power the gift to gie us to see oorsels as ithers see us

it wad frae monie a blunder free us”

Robert Burns 

[PeterHenry]

7 hours ago, Konor said:

Simply because it is a massive issue only for those who are using it as a convenient way of imposing restrictions on our sport. If there is a measurable impact on flora fauna and the environment from lead shot then it has probably been brought about by the overshooting of ground that occurs on commercial shoots. If that is so then commercial shoots should cease to use lead shot. Smaller shoots with bags which are more sustainable especially if the game shot is eaten by those doing the shooting are more acceptable to the general public.. If large commercial shoots have created this measurable problem with the deposition of lead shot in the countryside then the responsibility for fixing it should rest on their shoulders. I don’t think the public in general are aware of the problem to any great extent never mind clamouring for legislation to be introduced. As a result I don’t think your inability to use your old Scottish gun is proportionate to any detriment to the environment that doing so in a limited way causes. There is no appeasing these vocal minorities when it comes to animal rights and their politics are single issue extreme. That BASC et al have decided to fold to appease this minority public opinion is unfortunate but their refusal to negotiate the limited use of lead shot over ground where the impact would be minimal is a betrayal of those who follow a minimal impact sustainable branch of our sport. The insistence that the present voluntary transition will remain the status quo is absurd and is being used to allow us to walk into legislation because there is no will to fight against it which I consider a betrayal of grass roots shooters.The protection of commercial interests seem paramount and if the grass roots shooter suffers because of that then I most certainly don’t agree with it. If anyone agrees that the interests of commercial shooting come before my own then I disagree with them. Let the polluter pay is a commonly used phrase regarding the unacceptable pollution of our rivers which I think applies equally to lead shot in the environment.

You may well be content to relegate your Scottish gun to the safe ,I could more easily understand if you stated that you would no longer engage in excessive shooting on commercial shoots in order to minimise impact on the environment but not so much the pointless deprivation of using a vintage gun in response to the disproportionate cries from anti fieldsports enthusiasts and the acquiescence of our governing bodies.I most certainly will not be giving up using my Damascus barrelled side by side so there is where we have a massive difference in outlook.

I fortunately have no commercial interest in sport shooting and so my employment or income will not be impacted by any future legislation but to be brutally honest it would not upset me if the sale of game was outlawed .if excessive shooting has caused the problems associated with the deposition of lead shot to become significant then the logical conclusion is to get rid of the problem at source and have commercial shooters adapt to the new environment. No you will no longer be going through a slab or two of cartridges 6 days a week over the same ground you’ll have to make do with a box of  25 . Not happy ,then perhaps shooting live game is not for you so you will have to get your thrills elsewhere . Harsh ? No more harsher than expecting people to give up using their vintage guns in the interests of over commercialisation of shooting that sees bags of birds so great that they can’t all be given away and either have to be taken away by game dealers who are paid to carry that out or ,unbelievably, dumped
I’m not asking for public consent to continue my sport if that consent is based on their perception of shooting sports gained from excessive commercial shooting, in fact I’m more than capable of deciding whether my actions in procuring game for the table while enjoying myself immensely is defensible and don’t see why it should should hinge on the consent of ill informed others to continue to enjoy doing that.

A major part of the enjoyment of much of my sport ,and I’m sure of many others ,arises from walking the countryside it is carried out in coupled with the vintage equipment used in its pursuit. The quality of that experience diminishes if it is replaced with the ubiquitous and by contrast characterless over and under coupled with the repetitive nature of shooting on a predetermined peg.

Tin hat on 👍

Despite our similarities, we obviously inhabit different parts of this debate.

I want to see more game on shop shelves, not less - although I would like to see better prices for it, which would necessitate less of it being shot. As i've said, that is no bad thing in itself - but I have no desire to see the end of driven shooting, as I enjoy it every bit as much as rough shooting or wildfowling. Your right, excess is a bad look. But theres a whole world between excess and hair shirts.

Insofar as the defensibility of shooting - what some of us tend to veiw as defensible as a comunity has equal capacity to look bad in the eyes of the public. Just look at the comments section of any online newspaper artical on wildfowling. Regardless of your veiw, laws, especially in our democracy, are ultimately underpinned by the consent of the public. As the population grows increasingly divorced from the realites and traditions of the countryside, shooting has a growing number of PR problems.  But people are in no danger of forgetting the need to eat.

Game shooting ultimately has to be about food. That doesn't stop it from being about other things as well - and those other things are important. But if the buck stops anywhere - it stops at food. That is something non shooting pepole can be involved in. If we are going to survive as a sport - that is a major way our social licence, and therefor our legal rights are maintained - because it has the capacity to broaden our base vastly beyond what we could achive otherwise. If we need to get rid of lead to achive that - so be it.

As far as I can see, your view boils down to the fact you would rather others sport was curtailed more severely, so that you are not inconvenienced yourself.

And having said that, i'm out.

[Gordon R]

Quote

As far as I can see, your view boils down to the fact you would rather others sport was curtailed more severely, so that you are not inconvenienced yourself.

A rather harsh and inaccurate statement.

[Rewulf]

47 minutes ago, PeterHenry said:

I want to see more game on shop shelves, not less - although I would like to see better prices for it, which would necessitate less of it being shot.

So the big bag commercial shoots end up where ?
Most of these large shoots charge YOU the consumer to pay around £50 a bird to actually shoot them, so the money isnt in the meat obviously, at £2 a bird, if youre lucky.
Can you not see the contradiction here ?

48 minutes ago, PeterHenry said:

As far as I can see, your view boils down to the fact you would rather others sport was curtailed more severely, so that you are not inconvenienced yourself.

Another contradiction, BASC views large commercial shoots as perfectly acceptable , the many £1000s per day that these shoots command is the driver, the meat produced is an unimportant side line , but the excuse, the 'ethics' of shooting large numbers of bred targets are what is being used to  justify it.
Indeed , it is BASC et al that are perfectly happy to see others sport curtailed, to not inconvenience its own interests.