So our Country is broke

[Mungler]

18 hours ago, oowee said:

We just need to start to tax in a fairer way. It can't be right that many thousands of people earning six figure sums are paying tax at a lower rate than everyone else. 

Why? If it’s their risk, their work, their sleepless nights and therefore ‘their’ money.

High earners will not unreasonably argue that they do not ‘consume’ more of the state than the next man. They don’t demand or consume more education services - on the contrary they may private school and preserve a state place in the local school for someone else. Ditto for NHS and Bupa and so on.

Another not unreasonable place to start is to ask the state to spend less of our money (and the government has nothing to spend other than what it picks out of people’s pockets). Also perhaps to ask for better value in government spending and schemes and perhaps to ask the state to ensure that those rely on it at least try to do less so.

If you drag your backside out of bed to go to work the primary position has to be it’s your money otherwise you are going to work for the state who will then happily spaff your money away (because it’s easy to spaff away other peoples money and without consequence).

 

14 hours ago, stumfelter said:

This country could save millions by simply paying civil servants statutory sick pay instead of full wage sick pay, it's good enough for construction and they may think twice if it was costing them.

Spot on.

The key also is to reduce the size and cost of the state. And to drive for the state to be more productive and deliver actual value for money with efficiency.

.

Edited August 1 by Mungler

[Raja Clavata]

7 hours ago, Mice! said:

I get that, but there's a system in place, if someone earning 400k isn't clever enough to avoid losing 175k in tax then how are they clever enough to be earning 400k??

Like I said above,  these people won't be taking anything from the system,  just paying for others.

It isn’t about being clever, if you’re locked in PAYE you have no choice.

If you know otherwise then I’ll pay you to help reduce my PAYE tax bill.

[Mungler]

12 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

It isn’t about being clever, if you’re locked in PAYE you have no choice.

If you know otherwise then I’ll pay you to help reduce my PAYE tax bill.

‘You’ll never get rich on a wage’.

All the clever and wealthy people I know work for themselves or are at the very top - stands to reason I suppose.

 

8 hours ago, welsh1 said:

While i admire your optimism, labour have shown their true colours within weeks, snatch money from pensioners, declare there is no money while offering doctors a massive rise, which in turn will encourage all the other public sectors to want more, leading to inflation rises. the new chancellor lies like a cheap chinese watch, as does sir kier.

there will be sound bites and grandiouse announcements, but they will pick your pockets while showing you sparkly things that are never going to come to fruition.

 

This nails it.

Edited August 1 by Mungler

[Mungler]

26 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Sunk cost fallacy.

Says who? 

It wasn’t properly attempted to gauge any success. But moving it forward bubbles up the ECHR issues and that’s why it got abandoned.

But to abandon it without a Plan B? Or rather a fully costed plan B.

Edited August 1 by Mungler

[Raja Clavata]

13 minutes ago, Mungler said:

‘You’ll never get rich on a wage’.

I guess it’s all relative, but yes generally speaking you’re right, or at least on a wage you need to earn so much more to get rich.

It’s the tax at both ends of the chain that does my head in, for example up to 45% at source and 20% VAT on new goods.

Additional pension contributions are pretty much the only mitigation I’m aware of for PAYE, and that looked like a sound investment up until recently.

19 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Says who? 

It wasn’t properly attempted to gauge any success. But moving it forward bubbles up the ECHR issues and that’s why it got abandoned.

But to abandon it without a Plan B?

You’ll know better than me in a legal sense but before we undertake ambitious projects in tech we invest a bit of time identifying and mitigating downstream risks. Is there any evidence of a risk analysis and mitigation plan before the Rwanda gig kicked off. Lawyers got richer out of it mind 😉

[amateur]

2 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

 

.....Additional pension contributions are pretty much the only mitigation I’m aware of for PAYE, and that looked like a sound investment up until recently.

I think you mean, "until the last Labour government under Brown"

[Raja Clavata]

That isn’t what I meant, can you explain?

[Penelope]

14 hours ago, B686 said:

Loads of Solar farms were already being built before labour. They are going to have to build lots of nice new houses for all their asylum seeker friends they are letting in . Probably get priority over our own people. Might be lots of pensioners houses empty for them though if we have a really cold winter.

Beaulieu Park will certainly be big enough for a few thousand, even now, and it;s nowhere near finished. 100's of acres they have not even started on yet.

[old man]

13 hours ago, oowee said:

😁 We want taxes to increase. it's all about where and what. We want those earning six and seven figure incomes to be paying at least the same tax as those earning £20k. We want money to pay for our services. We want better services. We want those 10% of households that have half of the wealth to put some back into the pot for those that don't. We want those paying £20k a term for schooling to pay vat rather than have their payments subsidised. 

 

 

 

You maybe need to ring them up and motivate them then? Good aims for a fairer land but already I see signs of the same old idiocy that all parties prefer to peddle?

Common sense needed quickly and a rooting out of idiots?

[old man]

9 hours ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello,  With 10 million pensioners loosing the heating allowance i cannot see Labour having a second term if there is another general election but there again there might not be many of us left🤔

Maybe there is a  master plan?🤔🤔🤔

[Yellow Bear]

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

That isn’t what I meant, can you explain?

"Windfall tax" on pension funds, followed by complaining we were not saving enough in pension funds.

I suspect they will do this again as well.

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, Yellow Bear said:

I suspect they will do this again as well.

I think it more likely they will decrease the tax relief available on making contributions into your pension.  Almost certainly be a new 'cap' on the maximum that can be accumulated whilst claiming tax relief (as the Tories tried and backtracked on), but also limiting tax relief to the lower 'basic' tax rate, not the higher rate (for those eligible).  Both these changes have been widely 'tipped' in the press.

If you want growth - and we do - and 'they' claim they do, then reducing the money invested in pension funds is exactly the wrong thing to do.  The big pots of money held in pension funds provides the capital that funds businesses to grow.

 

[Mice!]

2 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

It isn’t about being clever, if you’re locked in PAYE you have no choice.

If you know otherwise then I’ll pay you to help reduce my PAYE tax bill.

Like I've said and Mungler has, you don't work PAYE, you don't have to be locked in, I get phone calls every week asking if I'm looking for new work, and before the change in IR35 it was worthwhile contracting, now for me at least where I am, the benefits of being a core employee out weigh the extra short term money I'd earn working umbrella.

So someone earning that £400k and paying in 60k then spending money is helping far more than the guy on PAYE who earns 100k

[B686]

2 hours ago, Penelope said:

Beaulieu Park will certainly be big enough for a few thousand, even now, and it;s nowhere near finished. 100's of acres they have not even started on yet.

I worked on the very first phase of Beaulieu as a hod carrier.  Then years later as a 360 operator digging foundations on a field I had shot pigeons on . Used to shoot on all the land there . Had my first eve 100+ bag on the field where the new school’s sports field is on rape stubble. Also used to shoot where the new solar farm is just between Gt Baddow and Danbury. Chelmsford already has enough scumbags home grown and our boat friends.

Edited August 1 by B686

[Raja Clavata]

2 hours ago, Mice! said:

Like I've said and Mungler has, you don't work PAYE, you don't have to be locked in, I get phone calls every week asking if I'm looking for new work, and before the change in IR35 it was worthwhile contracting, now for me at least where I am, the benefits of being a core employee out weigh the extra short term money I'd earn working umbrella.

So someone earning that £400k and paying in 60k then spending money is helping far more than the guy on PAYE who earns 100k

I’ve gone from PAYE to contractor to Ltd Company contractor and back to PAYE. Left Ltd Co to secure a career and circumstances at the time (young family). I couldn’t be in my current job as a contractor as it’s seen as a core key strategic role (or summat like that).

Nobody is arguing that 60k tax is more than the tax you’d pay at £100k earnings.

It’s down to the notion of progressive vs flat rate tax. I’m in favour of flat rate tax (I’d take home more money).

Let me provide an example, I’ve been out in a group for dinner with pals who are business owners “fighting” over taking the bill and paying with their card whilst collecting cash from the rest of us. For a group of 6 splitting a £600 bill, how much do you reckon the business owner is making out of being at the mill? I’m paying cash taxed under PAYE, he’s having his meal paid for plus profit, effectively the rest of us are paying for his time being there with us.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

 

8 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Let me provide an example, I’ve been out in a group for dinner with pals who are business owners “fighting” over taking the bill and paying with their card whilst collecting cash from the rest of us. For a group of 6 splitting a £600 bill, how much do you reckon the business owner is making out of being at the mill? I’m paying cash taxed under PAYE, he’s having his meal paid for plus profit, effectively the rest of us are paying for his time being there with us.

Perhaps you should choose your friends differently.

[Raja Clavata]

That’s why I referenced pals 👍

But that wasn’t the point of the example, obviously.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Obviously.

[oowee]

3 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

I think it more likely they will decrease the tax relief available on making contributions into your pension.  Almost certainly be a new 'cap' on the maximum that can be accumulated whilst claiming tax relief (as the Tories tried and backtracked on), but also limiting tax relief to the lower 'basic' tax rate, not the higher rate (for those eligible).  Both these changes have been widely 'tipped' in the press.

If you want growth - and we do - and 'they' claim they do, then reducing the money invested in pension funds is exactly the wrong thing to do.  The big pots of money held in pension funds provides the capital that funds businesses to grow.

 

There was a life time contribution cap under the Tories. Now removed but the taper relief on payments in is still there, high earners currently have no relief. 

As you say It makes sense to give relief particularly for those buying into 'British Funds'.  

[Raja Clavata]

37 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Obviously.

So, your point was?

[oowee]

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

 

Let me provide an example, I’ve been out in a group for dinner with pals who are business owners “fighting” over taking the bill and paying with their card whilst collecting cash from the rest of us. For a group of 6 splitting a £600 bill, how much do you reckon the business owner is making out of being at the mill? I’m paying cash taxed under PAYE, he’s having his meal paid for plus profit, effectively the rest of us are paying for his time being there with us.

I get this all the time and they want to use Amex. Some even have their kids on the company pay roll, modelling for promo material, earning just enough to stay under the tax allowance. Making personal loans to their own business for cash flow, paid back with dividends. All legal of course. I can smile when they are complaining of the vat on the £20k a term school fees. 😁

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, oowee said:

All legal of course.

And it shouldn't be

- and that is the fault of the Treasury/HMRC who devise and set down in legal framework these matters - and who have clearly - yet again failed to provide a law that is fit for purpose.  It is not MPs, Ministers, or Government who actually write the detailed laws - and in all probability the vast majority of them won't understand the full details and small print either.  It is the Treasury and HMRC civil servants who write the detailed legislation who have written laws not fit for purpose.

[oowee]

19 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

And it shouldn't be

- and that is the fault of the Treasury/HMRC who devise and set down in legal framework these matters - and who have clearly - yet again failed to provide a law that is fit for purpose.  It is not MPs, Ministers, or Government who actually write the detailed laws - and in all probability the vast majority of them won't understand the full details and small print either.  It is the Treasury and HMRC civil servants who write the detailed legislation who have written laws not fit for purpose.

No its a fault of the Tory govt. Labour will close it down. 

[JohnfromUK]

11 minutes ago, oowee said:

No its a fault of the Tory govt. Labour will close it down. 

Rubbish.  Loopholes are the fault of those who draft the laws.  MPs (well most of them) are not legal experts.  They cannot be expected to spot poorly drafted laws.  The loopholes are caused by poor legislation, written by the Treasury/HMRC.

[oowee]

8 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Rubbish.  Loopholes are the fault of those who draft the laws.  MPs (well most of them) are not legal experts.  They cannot be expected to spot poorly drafted laws.  The loopholes are caused by poor legislation, written by the Treasury/HMRC.

These are not loop holes. Divi's are normally separate from income and under legislation are treated separately.