Stu S Posted June 2, 2008 Report Share Posted June 2, 2008 You'll laugh at this I'm sure, I did at first! I hot a letter today from a local council stating that one of my cars (I only have two) was seen in a local town with the driver throwing a cigarette butt out of the window, and i must now provide them with the name and address of the driver of that vehicle on the day and time in question. Now, the offence took place on the 15th April 2008. Now I have trawled the legislation on god knows how many websites, and have as yet to find a definition of a reasonable timescale after the offence to be notified. It took them 46 days to get the letter to me, and I'm sure that isn't a reasonable time period to expect someone to remember who was driving the car, is it? Unfortunatley though, opinion isn't going to hold water here, i need hard fact, so if anyone can help me out here, i would be very grateful! Many thanks Stu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu S Posted June 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2008 28 views and no replies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reedbradshaw Posted June 2, 2008 Report Share Posted June 2, 2008 you are right in saying that there must be a reasonable time scale, but the term reasonable is used a lot in law. for instance, beyond reasonable doubt, reasonable man test and reasonably practical are just a few! i think the reason it is used is to give judges or other people in charge discretion on the term reasonable ( i may be wrong, this is only my opinion ). i think the best thing to do is to go to your solicitor. But then again this may offset the cost of the fine on to the price of the solicitor. you could maybe wright a firm formal letter to the governing body of this fine stating that you believe it is not a reasonable time scale and would like to see hard facts ( as you said ) on proving that it is indeed within the reasonable time scale. throw the ball back in their court and let them play it back to you.....o and before i forget state that they have 14 days to reply to this letter on the bottom.....i learnt this at some point in law only problem is i cannot remember which section of law it was, i think it was contract but you never know that may help in getting a speedy reply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomtom Posted June 2, 2008 Report Share Posted June 2, 2008 I heard that the police have to give NIP (notice of intended prosecution) for traffic offences caught on camera within 28 days, I am not sure if its the same in your situation though, and I am not a legal professional, just what I heard. 0.02p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodmedod.one Posted June 2, 2008 Report Share Posted June 2, 2008 Judging from the fact that you have put the word offence in italics, you don't see anything wrong with throwing rubbish out of your window. Admit you did it and pay up. Maybe then you won't be stupid enough to litter the countryside in future. If you look carefully, both your cars are probably fitted with ashtrays. With a little bit of practice you may get the hang of using them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranfield Posted June 2, 2008 Report Share Posted June 2, 2008 28 views and no replies? You are asking for a legal definition as applied to a specific Act, not an opinion. Only somebody legally qualified can answer that question...........that does preclude most of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted June 2, 2008 Report Share Posted June 2, 2008 I'm with Hodmedod, this gets right on my goat people littering so nice to see the council doing something about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starlight32 Posted June 2, 2008 Report Share Posted June 2, 2008 Judging from the fact that you have put the word offence in italics, you don't see anything wrong with throwing rubbish out of your window.Admit you did it and pay up. Maybe then you won't be stupid enough to litter the countryside in future. If you look carefully, both your cars are probably fitted with ashtrays. With a little bit of practice you may get the hang of using them. I'm with Hodmedod, this gets right on my goat people littering so nice to see the council doing something about it. Their word against your's as far as I'm concerned. So persons unknown say they see you do something and now you are presumed guilty until proved inocent. And you tell me this is a free country- load of old poppycock. What it going to be next.... No way would I except that and would fight it all the way. Teacher,teacher i saw him put a drawing pin on your chair. Thats all it amounts too. Anyway standard car ashtray's were never designed to be used anyway- Thats unless you own a Bentley where automatic air freshner and suction ash removal is standard spec.... And whats the odd fag butt or too- the wino's normally clear them up anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrowboy Posted June 2, 2008 Report Share Posted June 2, 2008 I heard that the police have to give NIP (notice of intended prosecution) for traffic offences caught on camera within 28 days, I am not sure if its the same in your situation though, and I am not a legal professional, just what I heard. 0.02p There is a 60 day time scale for any offence under the environmental protection act . This is an environmental issue taken out by your local council , who will take action against you . Further more it is not a police matter , unless you refuse to pay , it will then become a criminal offence . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbald Posted June 2, 2008 Report Share Posted June 2, 2008 And whats the odd fag butt or too- the wino's normally clear them up anyway Perhaps a little research before making stupid comments. Taken from the Anti litter website. Look at the costs of cleaning up after inconsiderate smokers Smoking Cigarettes are difficult to clean up. Butts fall into cracks in pavements, accumulate around grids, gutters etc. Filters are composed of cellulose acetate, a form of plastic which can persist in the environment as long as any other plastic. ENCAMS 2005 research identified that people do not class cigarette ends as litter - people think they are bio- degradable - they are not! It can take over 500 years for a cigarette end to break down in the environment; some research suggests that they never break down! Local Environmental Quality Survey 04/05 shows that cigarette ends could be found in 79% of all locations. It is estimated that 122 tonnes of cigarette butts, matches and smoking related litter is dropped every single day, with a clean up cost of £342 million. After the introduction of the Health Act 2006 ('smoke free legislation'), England suffered a 43% rise in cigarette litter. (ENCAMS - 14th September 2007) Cigarette litter makes up 40% of all litter found on our streets Litterers constantly argue that cigarette ends are not litter- they are wrong! The Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Act 2005 defined cigarette ends and smoking related materials as litter and has provided the local authority with powers to deal with those who litter our streets. The Local Authority has powers to serve litterers with fixed penalty notices of £50 or if found guilty in court a fine of up to £2,500 may be imposed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maiden22 Posted June 2, 2008 Report Share Posted June 2, 2008 Come on chaps, being a little harsh aren't we? I don't drop litter of any kind, by the way, and seeing other people do it drives me mad. But in this case, isn't the response of the powers that be a little OTT? And sbald, research - is that a joke? And whats the odd fag butt or too- the wino's normally clear them up anyway Perhaps a little research before making stupid comments. Taken from the Anti litter website. Impartial, clearly. Look at the costs of cleaning up after inconsiderate smokers Smoking Cigarettes are difficult to clean up. Butts fall into cracks in pavements, accumulate around grids, gutters etc. Filters are composed of cellulose acetate, a form of plastic which can persist in the environment as long as any other plastic. ENCAMS 2005 research identified that people do not class cigarette ends as litter - people think they are bio- degradable - they are not! It can take over 500 years for a cigarette end to break down in the environment; some research suggests that they never break down! Remarkable stuff Local Environmental Quality Survey 04/05 shows that cigarette ends could be found in 79% of all locations. What in God's name do they mean by this, and are we really expected to take it seriously? It is estimated that 122 tonnes of cigarette butts, matches and smoking related litter is dropped every single day, with a clean up cost of £342 million. How on earth have they arrived at these hastily made-up numbers? After the introduction of the Health Act 2006 ('smoke free legislation'), England suffered a 43% rise in cigarette litter. (ENCAMS - 14th September 2007) Again, how is this calculated? Cigarette litter makes up 40% of all litter found on our streets This is a lie, pure and simple. Litterers constantly argue that cigarette ends are not litter- they are wrong! The Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Act 2005 defined cigarette ends and smoking related materials as litter and has provided the local authority with powers to deal with those who litter our streets. The Local Authority has powers to serve litterers with fixed penalty notices of £50 or if found guilty in court a fine of up to £2,500 may be imposed. How are these statistics reached, using what methodology? As I said, I am totally against littering of all kinds - including discarded roons - but the above is nothing but sloppy propaganda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2shots Posted June 2, 2008 Report Share Posted June 2, 2008 This boils my **** whenever anything like this happens,My wifes sister was in a similar situation when an ignorant cow of a copper told her to pick up a cigarette end she saw her dump and was still lit,She wouldnt let her explain that she did not smoke and never had done so refused to pick it up,and got arrested.They kept her in the station writing a report on littering for over an hour and writing a statement for her to sign,but she refused this as well,thats when she called me to say she had missed her kids from school crying her eyes out and clearly in stress,so I sent a solicitor down, after waiting an hour for him to go it took five minutes for him to get her out.She got a letter 3 month later to sign and pay for a stupid fine but refused and attended the court.The police didnt even have the balls to turn up in court and lost the case, we were praying they would because we had medical evidence she never smoked,all costs were awarded to her,and the solicitor wanted to sue for damages but she decided to let it go,tell them to sod off and prove it we did and they lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starlight32 Posted June 2, 2008 Report Share Posted June 2, 2008 So the moral of the story is the goverment is to blame then for the additional litter. When you could smoke inside the debris was controlled more effectively..... Now smokers sre forced out into the open the lack of public authority control over litter creates loads of mess. Quite simple at the end of the day. What about chewing gum then? My post is more concerned with the lack of fair play in current society....And as for stupid comments- Well that is my game. Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter-peter Posted June 2, 2008 Report Share Posted June 2, 2008 (edited) I would admit to nothing and would pay nothing. the case is up to them to prove. I doubt the cps will bring a case as they have insuficient evidence take your video camera and follow the local bin men etc they are worse offenders than anyone PS i am a non smoker. the cps are reluctant to pursue any case unless they have hard fast evidence. tell em to get on with it. also cig stubs non biodegradable for 500 years that is **** both paper and tobacco are plant products and biodegrade. Edited June 2, 2008 by peter-peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul223 Posted June 2, 2008 Report Share Posted June 2, 2008 You may find what your looking for here http://www.pepipoo.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerico Posted June 2, 2008 Report Share Posted June 2, 2008 As a biker of 7 years I have had plenty of discussions with car drivers over throwing ciggeretts out of the window! Think yourself lucky that you only have to pay a fine rather than be sitting in the cell for either killing someone or setting crops alight! (I reserve the right to use some of the above lecture again aimed toward the idiots who don't check their mirrors before using screen wash) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul223 Posted June 3, 2008 Report Share Posted June 3, 2008 Didnt realise screen wash can set crops alight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starlight32 Posted June 3, 2008 Report Share Posted June 3, 2008 Didnt realise screen wash can set crops alight Nor me. Crops are set alight by litterbugs who drop glass bottles which magnify under the sunlight and create fires in that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tosspot Posted June 3, 2008 Report Share Posted June 3, 2008 I believe that it's the non smokers who pollute the environment with their sanctimonious whining Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr W Posted June 3, 2008 Report Share Posted June 3, 2008 How is a cigarette thrown from a car going to kill someone? Worst case that it hits a biker and bounces off the helmet or leathers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted June 3, 2008 Report Share Posted June 3, 2008 (edited) If you did throw it out of the window then shame on you! Dont you have an ashtray in your car? I know it's a small item that doesn't really cause too much of a problem but all the same I think it's a bad habit. I had exactly the same issue with my dad a month or two ago. We were standing on the driveway having a chat and he flicked his cigarette butt into the road. It wouldn't have been quite so bad if there wasn't a bloody skip on the drive at the time! He smokes some posh things with a gold band around the butt, and it amazes me how long they hang around for. You can track his movements for the last month by following the trails This kind of thing really winds me up. I throw apple cores etc into hedges all the time, but stuff that doesn't rot looks bad and should be taken home. Pay the fine, and take it home next time Edited June 3, 2008 by njc110381 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu S Posted June 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2008 Errm, just to clarify, I do smoke, but since i only had the CONVERTIBLE 1970's sports car restored last year, including new interior, new paint, new hood etc, i do not smoke in the car. So all of you that are instantly having a go at me over this can **** off really. I did not throw the butt out of the car, and where i have the issue is that as someone else has already mentionned, guilty until proven innocent is not an acceptable way to run this country. You say that your blood is boiling over me throwing something out of the car when i didn't? Well i say that my blood is boiling over people like you that attack without knowing the facts, and also that have really been very unhelpful to a fellow member that was asking for some help and advice on how to handle a situation that could have escalated from innocence to a £2,500 fine. Thank you very much to those that have really tried to help, it is much apreciated. But to those that simply attacked - **** you very very much. Mods - don't bother banning me, i'm gone. Stu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted June 3, 2008 Report Share Posted June 3, 2008 How do they get to prove who was driving the car? My wife and I drive both of our cars - but I would find it difficult to recall who was driving it say three weeks ago last tuesday afternoon at 3PM for example. I'd imagine it would be inadmissable evidence for you to guess who was driving it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Posted June 3, 2008 Report Share Posted June 3, 2008 Judging from the fact that you have put the word offence in italics, you don't see anything wrong with throwing rubbish out of your window.Admit you did it and pay up. Maybe then you won't be stupid enough to litter the countryside in future. If you look carefully, both your cars are probably fitted with ashtrays. With a little bit of practice you may get the hang of using them. I personally think that some of the facts above are wrong, but nevermind. "Hodmedod.one" can you honestly tell us that you have never, ever droped any rubish of any kind, ofcourse you have, everyone has, and as the title of this post is, asking for help, i think its is a sensible reply the author wishes and not some stupid slating, otherwise surely he would have posted with a title reading something on the lines of, "Im an idiot with no respect for the country, give me as much abuse as you can without being overly helpfull" However he didnt so can we please stop the grilling and try to help the guy out? i see people everyday throwing stuff on floor, chewing gun etc etc, they dont get fined do they? My advice to you would be, unless the council sent the letter recorded delivery (where you have to sign for it) totally ignor it, throw it in the bin do whatever, because as stated 60 days in the eyes of the court / law is a reasonable period of time to act, this becomes 90 days in the case of a serious crime. Let this time elapse and play ingnoance, however you cant let the council know you have recived the letter, they will send you another should you not reply stating that they are going to take you to court etc, one this letter arives, wait until 60 days has elapsed, then call them about the court action letter and claim you know nothing and are totally suprised that you havent heard anything off them sooner, have a right rant down the phone, let them know you mean business, then ask them for the evidence / cctv footage which caught you, councils only keep this footage for 60 days unless a crime is commited and the footage is needed for evidence, in the case of a disposed fag stump, i doubt that. They have a legal requirement to send you all evidence prior to issuing a court date to allow you to prepare your case, tell them this. I promiss you if you do this, you will go nowhere near a court room, they are calling your bluff mate, i do it when people owe me money all the time, give them 60 days, send them a nasty letter along with a photocopy of a small claims court form which has been filled in, and you can bet your bottom dollar they pay up everytime, because people panic. Hope this helps.... Ice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimdfish Posted June 3, 2008 Report Share Posted June 3, 2008 The Manchester Evening News in particular has most weeks the terrible story of someone fined 80 quid for littering. the article usually takes ther form of some "outraged" citizen fined for chucking out a fag dimp or dropping a can to the floor with the accompanying headline " I was only putting it on the floor because i was tired due to dyslexia" or some such tosh. Littering is illegal. If you get caught expect some punitive action for you have broken the law be it a fag end or a skip full of asbestos. It is a aginst the law and same as you can not be a little bit pregnant you can be no less guilty in the eyes of the law. i know this sounds sanctimonious and yes, i have littered and still chuck my fag dimps but if or when I am caught I will hold my handds up. jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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