Mike2 Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 (edited) If you are one of the "lucky" recipients of a letter from South Yorkshire Police recently, this may be of interest to you.... BASC tackles South Yorkshire Police over unhelpful letter BASC has criticised South Yorkshire Police for sending a letter to certificate holders in the county advising them to leave their gun cabinet keys with a friend if they are going away on holiday. The advice in the letter goes against Home Office Firearm Security Guidance. Compliance with this guidance is important for all firearms owners because non-compliance can put your certificate at risk. BASC’s director of communications, Christopher Graffius, said: “I was surprised by the letter and it is worrying that a police force should issue advice which is contrary to the Home Office guidance. We have spoken to South Yorkshire Police and have made the point that it would have been sensible for them to have consulted us on the content of the letter before sending it out. We have already received many calls from worried members and I can well understand their concern and distress over this letter.” South Yorkshire Police say they sent the letter because there have been a number of gun thefts from certificate holders’ homes. BASC has submitted a Freedom of Information request to establish the exact number of such thefts. Mike Eveleigh, BASC senior firearms officer, said: “It is a shame that this letter has been sent as it is a blot on the otherwise good record of service of the South Yorkshire Firearms Licensing department.” Edited July 30, 2009 by Mike2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breastman Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 How about you split the risk and give one neighbour your guns and the other your cartridges/rifle rounds? Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjimmer Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 (edited) I assume the friend would have to be a SGC/FAC holder. How would the police know which friend has the keys? Far better to deposit an important part of each weapon, bolt/forend, with a RFD. Edited July 29, 2009 by rjimmer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Fudd Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 I assume the friend would have to be a SGC/FAC holder. How would the police know which friend has the keys? Far better to deposit an important part of each weapon, bolt/forend, with a RFD. or the whole gun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silpig5 Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 so why did norfolk police state that even my wife should not know where i keep my keys ?? that sounds a very contratictory letter to me . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveB916 Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 Ah best option is take the guns out of the safe. lock it and hand the guns to the neighbour to hide under the bed, then when villains break into your cabinet there's nothing there !!!! See, Police are not so stupid eh Dave B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 so why did norfolk police state that even my wife should not know where i keep my keys ?? that sounds a very contratictory letter to me . Because that is the best practice, but I don't think it's laid down in law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenhunter Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 The way I was told it seems to me that anyone who has knowledge of the whereabouts (police speak)of the said keys they can be deemed to be in charge of said weapon(s) and if they are not holding a current certificate or license which would legally allow them to be in possession of the said weapon(s) they would be deemed to be breaking the law I believe at least one 'wife' has been taken to court over this but as I don't know anyone who has personally it could be a myth. GH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossy835 Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 and they say keep your guns safe,what a joke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Condor Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 ?? I thought that by law, no-one other than a SGC holder was allowed to access a shotgun - in other words, you should not even allow a non-SGC holder relative / spouse to look after your gun at a Gamefair, for example, while you head off to take a comfort break..... There is a case where a SGC was revoked after it was revealed that the 80-something year old mother of a solicitor who had himself held a SGcertificate for many years, was able to access the keys to the gunsafe. If you keep other items in your gunsafe, then even their owners are not allowed access unless they themselves are cert. holders. When our local FAO came to do her visit prior to my getting a SGC, she explained that a lot of spouses ended up applying for SGC purely to be able to transport / convey guns to their shooting spouses even though they may never wish to fire off a shot themselves..... The advice given by S Yorks seems just plain nonsense and, if you followed it, you would definitely fall foul of the law as it stands unless your neighbour is a SGC holder. :welcomeani: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullbore Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 Because that is the best practice, but I don't think it's laid down in law. In that case what about the tale of when the police carried out a spot check on a shooters house, when he was not in, his mother, thinking she was being helpful, told the police where the cabinet keys were. The Police revoked his license because guns should be stored out of the reach of unauthorised persons, ie ANYONE who is NOT the license holder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Condor Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 In that case what about the tale of when the police carried out a spot check on a shooters house, when he was not in, his mother, thinking she was being helpful, told the police where the cabinet keys were. The Police revoked his license because guns should be stored out of the reach of unauthorised persons, ie ANYONE who is NOT the license holder That's the solicitor chap with the elderly mother....I think it's noted in some BASC document somewhere. He had a SGC for over 20 years with an unblemished record. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike2 Posted July 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 (edited) In 2005 following over a year of negotiation, discussion, meetings, etc etc, the Home Office published a document which tried to encapsulate as much as possible of what is regarded as "reasonable precautions" for firearm security in one document. This involved the police, the Home Office and the British Shooting Sports Council. The document is not perfect, but it does give us a level playing field, and it's open to everyone to see - no "secret police guidance" here, as there once was. If South Yorkshire Police know of it's existance, then it seems they have chosen to ignore it. That document is the Firearms Security Handbook 2005 and at paragraph 2.59 it says: "Only authorised persons should have access to any of the keys for any cabinet etc containing firearms and section 1 ammunition. Care needs to be taken in selecting locations for the storage of keys, particularly any spare sets, to avoid them being discovered and improperly used." The advice in the letter very clearly goes against this. There is a military maxim which goes "Order, counter-order, confusion" which seems to fit this situation. The tone of the letter "Dear certificate holder" "I find it necessary to write to you..." "I would remind you.... " "you may face sanctions..." has upset a lot of people. The bald statements may be true, but there are far more polite ways of writing to people. There are around 8,000 certificate holders in South Yorkshire, and to send such a letter as this with a spelling error in it ("then" instead of "them") does nothing to enhance the reputation of the force. It's a shame - the licensing department had an excellent reputation, but I'll be willing to bet no-one apologises for this very obvious error - and the waste of South Yorkshire residents' money. Edited July 30, 2009 by Mike2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proud dad Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 (edited) There are around 8,000 certificate holders in South Yourkshire, and to send such a letter as this with a spelling error in it ("then" instead of "them") does nothing to enhance the reputation of the force. It's a shame - the licensing department had an excellent reputation, but I'll be willing to bet no-one apologises for this very obvious error - and the waste of South Yorkshire residents' money. Classic. I just love it when people complaining about spelling, spell things wrong themselves. Edited July 30, 2009 by proud dad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 (edited) I assume the friend would have to be a SGC/FAC holder. How would the police know which friend has the keys? Far better to deposit an important part of each weapon, bolt/forend, with a RFD. even if they are a FAC /SGC holder they aren't meant to have access to your cabinet, look at all the fuss about sharing a cabinet. Its all nonsense but you have to watch your back with these things. South Yorkshire may not be talking entire rubbish as we can assume that if a friend has your keys then you don't have to give them your house keys as well so as such they don't have access to your cabinet. But personally I'm happy that just i know where my keys are just out of interest is this in case thieves break into your house while you're away and go searching for the spare set of keys? if so it may be badly worded but not entire nonsense Edited July 30, 2009 by al4x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike2 Posted July 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 I just love it when people complaining about spelling, spell things wrong themselves. But I apologise (sorry!), correct the mistake, am not rude or officious, and I'm not getting paid by the residents of South Yorkshire Police to send 8,000 letters. Thanks for pointing out the spulling errurr ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 I am just about speechless about this! When away, I take all of my keys with me! "Simples" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel100 Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 The South Yorkshire letter is badly worded, some have found it threatening and gives advice which is clearly contrary to the various Acts, to 'Guidance' and the 2005 Firearms Security Handbook. Even if you read in to it that they mean you should leave guns with friends who are also certificate holders (they don't say it) then you still have the issue of notification letters on SGCs and variations plus notification letters on FACs. Far better if they had asked the advice of BASC before sending out the letter. This item will feature in next week's Shooting Times. Apparently, South Yorkshire police are not admitting fault but will be sending out a further (8,000?!) 'clarification' letters. Oh well, it's not there money ... Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 IMHO, the quickest way to loose your ticket is to do as the letter says! That will help with their statistics relating to surrendered/cancelled FAC's. om Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike2 Posted July 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 Apparently, South Yorkshire police are not admitting fault but will be sending out a further (8,000?!) 'clarification' letters. Steel100 - that's very interesting! Perhaps if you have details you could let the media department at BASC know? They're keeping an eye on this, and if (again) South Yorkshire don't speak to the shooting organisations before sending out such poorly worded letters, they're simply digging themselves a deeper hole; and - as you say - wasting YOUR money again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel100 Posted August 1, 2009 Report Share Posted August 1, 2009 Mike2 BASC are fully aware Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzy518 Posted August 1, 2009 Report Share Posted August 1, 2009 I think that a lot of people are assuming that the neighbour would have access to the guns because he would have the keys to the cabinet...The letter from S Yorks police makes no mention of the neighbour being given the house keys too does it? He cant access the cabinet if he cant get in the house...Oh, and I personally think that the whole idea is a pile of pants!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 1, 2009 Report Share Posted August 1, 2009 It seems like a very bad idea what South Yorkshire police are doing. When away I keep the house locked, padlocks on garden gates and keys hidden well away in the house. I would never dream to take a thing such as keys to an arms cabinet out of the house into an uncontrolled environment where they can get lost or stolen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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