Fellside

Agree re shooting folk being generally apathetic. In today’s noisy politics, if you don’t shout very loudly, you just don’t get noticed. As Scully pointed out, contacting MPs is extremely important - there’s nothing more convincing than voting pressure! In their PR campaigns MPs are very caring about X, Y and Z, but what they mostly care deeply about is staying employed in a highly paid job with many perks and privileges. Re Norway, one of most important part of the shooting community’s victory - was their assertion that steel shot and lead free rifle ammunition caused excessive wounding. It was therefore deemed cruel and their lead ban was reversed mainly on this basis. The bias and spurious origin of the anti lobby’s so called evidence certainly didn’t help. It is interesting that nearly all of the key papers being cited here in England by the HSE are also written by noteworthy anti lobbyists……??!! It’s getting interesting!

Yes agreed, however in my case (ref’ this thread), if I am attacked for perfectly reasonable musings or shooting practices, it’s natural and fair to defend one’s actions. I find the catalyst is often a classic grumpy ‘have a go’ merchant, who has undergone full diplomacy bypass surgery. How do you stop them….? They are all over social media I’m afraid.

Far from supporting your sanctimonious rant, my PS refutes everything you’re talking about - and is evidence based. It also refers to lead….!! Oh sorry, of course, “steel or lead makes no difference”…..right?! Your main misunderstanding arises from repeatedly referring to foreshore fowling with steel - when I am clearly talking about inland shooting with lead. If you want to grump about the marsh cowboys shooting at stuff out of range, fine, but my shooting and the way I go about it, couldn’t be more different. Now go and troll somebody else!

Exactly…!!

“Steel or lead makes no difference”…...???

I helped put on a let day (mainly high pheasants) a few weeks ago. Two of the gun team regularly shot birds of 50 to 60 yards. Not silly extreme, just good birds. The rest didn’t really try for the very tall stuff. They were content with the average birds and shot within their limits - commendable. However, the guns who could kill the tall stuff weren’t lectured by the rest! P.S Try patterning 1 1/2 oz of lead 4s at 60 yards through a Teague 3/4. You will realise it is is more capable and consistent than you’re shooting ever will be.

There’s nothing more tedious than a load of sanctimonious ‘holier than thou’ clap trap! If you can’t kill something the size of a goose at 60 yards with 1 1/2 oz of lead through a decent 3/4 choke, then I would suggest shooting school….or take up golf. Further, I was referring to inland shooting with lead. You have referenced a foreshore scenario, likely to involve steel shot. Not really that comparable I’m afraid. I wouldn’t lift my gun to a 60 yarder with steel. Also I didn’t actually write “60 yards plus”. Clearly I regard 60 yards as the limit. One thing I can agree on is the the unacceptable wounding behaviour of these marsh cowboys. They are likely to be shooting beyond the limits of their ballistic capabilities…..with steel..!! I too have been there and seen it with my own eyes. Steel then..??

I presume you mean 60 yards with the typical 30 gram game load…? Yes certainly 60 yards is not consistently realistic - more like 45 to 50 tops. Try patterning 1 1/2 oz 4s or 3s. They really do the business on geese at 60 yards. Although admittedly the target size is much bigger than a pheasant.

About this 60 yard shot (and not wishing to enter the 100 yard debate without consulting my legal team…🙂), 60 yard wildfowling shots aren’t that uncommon. With heavy pellets and tight chokes, it is more than feasible. I have shot (killed) geese and a a handful of mallard over the stubbles in Scotland with lead 1 1/2 oz 3s and a 3/4 choke at 60 yards - intercepting flight lines and decoying etc. I don’t want to appear boastful, it’s not a major achievement and I have seen others do it too. It is possible to crudely measure the distance if a bird is shot flying parallel to the hedge behind the hide. With tungsten shot this range can be achieved routinely. Tungsten patterns very tightly - it’s hard to get it to separate to be honest. I ended up using cylinder most of the time. That said, I think it often tempts guns to stretch their expectations too far at times. Understanding ones limits isn’t a bad thing. None of us like wounding. There you are - that’s my two penneth for what it’s worth. If anyone is tempted to shout at me for using lead, please be reminded I am referring to shooting non-wetlands in SCOTLAND…!! Cheers.

Some valid comments. However, a lot of younger children find the barrel weight of guns larger than a 410 to make their leading arm tired quite quickly. The barrel weight just pulls downwards too much. It’s a classic case of 6 in a row straight off - then a lot of missing. With decent cart’s and appropriate chokes (i.e cylinder and 14 gram 7/12) the 410 really isn’t a problem. Recoil which adults wouldn’t really notice on larger bores, even with light loads, can also become a ‘put off’ factor. I do agree though, that some parents / coaches let them continue with the 410 long after they’ve outgrown it.

I have the Yildiz 410 O/U. It’s a cracking little gun. I did shoot with a Kofs 410 try gun on a clay ground. I find these try guns to be very useful, as they take some punishment, and you can see how they stand up to it….or don’t. It hadn’t fared very well, being reluctant to close and the top lever was stiff to move. The Kofs issue may have been a one off, but of course I bought the Yildiz.

As explained above, intensive agriculture is their main downfall, winter wheat monocultures being their worst killer. This is why they are doing so well in the northern USA and Canada - there are endless acres of what we would call rough ground. Ideal..!!

I use snap caps in my 2 S x S guns due to their V springs and only coming out 4 or 5 times a year, but never in the O/U's. Yes agreed - this is absolutely the correct approach. Relieving coil springs for storage in a modern O/U’s is utterly pointless. Do brand new Brownings get unboxed with snap caps in them…?!

I mean preparation for standing at the best angle. My hit rate improved significantly when I started using a swivelling chair. I was able to start the swing from my seat… if you know what I mean. By the time you stand and mount the gun - you’re feet and body posture are just right. At least that’s how I find it anyway. Hope that makes sense.

Yes agreed - weight is a factor. I only use my super duper office chair when able to drive in (which is most of the time). If I have to carry my kit, I use one of those fold away camping chairs. Very comfortable, but not nearly as good as being able to swivel about for the best shot angle.

As mentioned - swivel office chairs are great. You can adjust the seat height also. Marvelous for comfort - especially if you’re tall (as I am also). I picked up a tatty old one for peanuts. It’s grey and a mixture of green/brown where I’ve spray painted it - so blends in well. P.S Turning to adjust for the shot position becomes a great advantage - relative to a non swivel type.

My discoveries with these 3” HHP are similar - very impressive. If anything, too dense at ‘average’ ranges. This is easily overcome however, by using a more open choke for one my barrels. The only other 410 cartridge I buy these days are Eley Trap 14 gram for clays. Thanks very much for posting the pattern pics.

Had this happen a few times now. My solution as above - link swivel. Not the massive heavy duty ones - pick a sensible medium size.

Been seeing similar - associated with beech mast. Huge numbers.

You were on to something with: “The answer is simply yes”. You lost me on the “where necessary”.

Couldn’t agree more. The title of this thread is a silly question really.

Somebody else will be controlling them in the wider area - they do travel quite widely. Be in no doubt re damage to wildlife if their numbers are permitted to boom. The young of any ground nesting birds just become a quick and easy fox treat!

Well done Scully - good effort! There’s a memory that boy will never forget.

Silly fast cart’s don’t give much advantage if any - the pattern just decelerates faster. It’s mainly a marketing advantage rather than a shooting advantage. As LB points out the difference in lead between high velocity and standard velocity loads is a few inches - in other words no practical difference. The most important thing - is that these cart’s are never going to give you a really important advantage - CONFIDENCE!! Move on to some other cart’, even if others rate them. They’ll ruin your focus. We all have our ‘confidence cartridge’. Clearly this isn’t yours.

I think Ultrastu makes a good point. Seldom is nature in balance - there is a constant state of flux. Also, we have a managed countryside - therefore managed intervention is continually necessary for conservation. As the fox no longer has tertiary predators (wolves, lynx and bears etc) it’s UK population would explode without general culling. Short of having bears and wolves roaming the urban fringes, the only practical control mechanism is shooting.