Show some compassion

[the_commoner]

my views on shooting have already been stated, but i would question the use of the term "smoke screen", firstly, because some people actually DO shoot for pest control, and not use it as a cover for a few jolly's, and secondly, bear in mind this a public forum, if you want to shoot for sport then thats ok, but remember it sort of fly's in the face of the general licence - dont give the anti's any more ammo to use against us

 

this was my point at the very beginning, i dont think anyone could argue that they offer good sport, but to say you shoot them for sport soley is not a wise statement to make

[dusk2dawn]

The rape on the main farm I shoot is getting hammered (well what is showing above the snow). Not bothered about shooting the pigeons hard, every time I pass I stop and let a few shots off to shift them. Shot one yesterday and two today, all were starting to lose weight, not desparately thin just yet but they soon will be.

 

On the same farm we had a game shoot on Monday and shot four woodcock, they were plump enough but in hindsight they were not flying very strongly, more as if they were conserving energy than really suffering just yet but I think they will start to lose condition soon as this weather looks set to continu.

 

I was out wildfowling this morning and managed to shoot two greylag, the geese were wary and flying strongly but both those I shot were light so I think that is the end of my wildfowling for now.

 

 

and if you've got game birds down as well these need water as well!

 

Read this thread and what Cranfield suggests is correct, we cannot generalise, here in the south we have perhaps not had the depth of snow that the midlands has had, but on the subject of Woodcock I am fortunate to look after woodland that Woodcock seem to favour, as soon as the temp drops around the time of a full moon in they come.

 

The numbers have enabled me to more or less observe them on a daily basis and they are suffering lately, they do not rise until they really have to, a quick dog perhaps could peg them, they are that lethargic at the moment.

 

Another post by al4x mentions water for game birds, we have a stream so not a problem but what of grit? Where are gamebirds,or any birds for that matter, obtaining this from when the ground is under 9" of snow?

This supply of Grit is something I have not considered until now, perhaps if it were made available at each food hopper it might hold the birds?, Just a thought.

 

This morning doing the round of the feeders I saw where the Badgers had been busy during the night, several Rabbit holes in a warren had been ripped out as if by a mini JCB, they had been successful and fed well as there was a fair amount of blood staining the snow in places.

 

Cheers Rob.

[al4x]

the birds do seem to be wandering a lot round us in fact everything is having to work harder, I met two foxes in daylight on Saturday both had a standoff with the GWP who's started pointing them till they move and then giving them a good run for their money These were both on game shoots where you simply don't usually see them, in fact till then I hadn't seen one in daylight all season.

 

As for the pigeon argument they are a pest species we've thousands hitting rape at the moment, my mate moves them off a few times a day as he's the farmer and shoots what he can. the big problem with pigeons is they don't evenly graze the field they hit the parts that are shortest and poorest, then the decision has to be made as to whether its more profitable to harvest a very thin crop or re-drill bits with the costs that go with it. Its fine for the armchair gentlemen shooters on here who no doubt wait for their sport till the weather is more clement but for the rest of us who respond to the call to do something about the damage being done its a bit rich at times.

[Fisherman Mike]

Just to put the record straight it was not my intention to pressurise or foist my opinion on any member of the Forum, just to highlight the general scenario which is being played out over many sectors of the country at the moment. I still suggest restraint in areas where the poor birds are really struggling at the moment, I appreciate they are a responsible for major crop damage when conditions are right but at the moment in many areas all but the very outer tips of rape is covered and crop damage is absolutely minimal.

 

The point I was trying to make about Sport Versus Crop protection is I think even more valid given the current conditions. Personally I don’t think any man jack of us consider crop protection when we pick up the gun sling in conditions like this. Let’s take the crops out of the scenario for a minute. Say farmer Giles didn’t grow brassicas, or OSR or Peas, (I’m not including wheat crops because pigeon damage on these is recognised by the NFU as not being significant in modern times.) So pigeon numbers are boyant but hypothetically they are not a pest species although they are still on the general list. Do you think then, our thousands of members would then stop shooting them? Of course they wouldn’t. Do members set up Pigeon decoys and shoot them where there are not food crops to be protected? Of course they do. (Me included).

Pigeon numbers are high, we all know that but just because they are there it doesn’t mean we have to get out every other day and just blast them for the sake of it.

 

We are indeed under the close scrutiny of the anti shooting brigade, and surrounded by a nation of bird lovers, these people know that pigeon numbers are at an all time high and possibly amongst the commonest resident birds, It would only take a well placed word or two of concern about the wild bird population being in decline by one of the conservation organisations to Defra and the whole situation regarding the inclusion of the species on the general list will be brought into serious question. We seem to have very short memories, what happened last time, some members of the committee lobbied for the bird to be removed from the list totally; It was only access to Information produced by census records such as the BTO that safeguarded its inclusion.

 

Can any of us remember when House Sparrows and Starlings outnumbered Wood pigeon and vast hordes descended on pasture and arable land alike each year? They are no longer on the General list of pest species and we didn’t even shoot them in any great numbers

 

In my opinion we need to tidy up our act, shoot within the constraints of the law and BASC guidelines and with some sort of morality. If we don’t show that we are able to self police our shooting and exercise some control at times like this then we will go the same way as Fox hunting eventually, and I really believe this.

[Ozzy Fudd]

i agree that we need to be careful about out image, but i think youre making too many generalisations.

 

firstly, sparrows and starlings are still on the NI general licence, and i shoot them in certain areas where they cause a problem, without hesitation. admittedly not many of my permissions have crops growing at the moment, but theres a bigger problem i have found, and thats crows, magpies, pigeons, and yes, starlings and sparrows, entering cattle sheds and helping themselves to a free meal, and thats before considering them roosting in the sheds and leaving droppings everywhere (including over the cattle). its bad enough during the summer, but in winter its 10 times worse - one farmer i know was losing over £100 a month in cattle feed last winter.

 

as for tidying up our image, yes and no. i agree we need to shoot within the law (anyone who doesnt is a muppet), but you need to remember pigeons, etc, are on the pest list, and so can be shot as such. you contradtict yourself though, by saying

 

"We are indeed under the close scrutiny of the anti shooting brigade, and surrounded by a nation of bird lovers, these people know that pigeon numbers are at an all time high and possibly amongst the commonest resident birds, It would only take a well placed word or two of concern about the wild bird population being in decline by one of the conservation organisations to Defra and the whole situation regarding the inclusion of the species on the general list will be brought into serious question. We seem to have very short memories, what happened last time, some members of the committee lobbied for the bird to be removed from the list totally; It was only access to Information produced by census records such as the BTO that safeguarded its inclusion."

 

now, one minute you are saying that pigeon numbers are at an all time high and possibly amongst the commonest birds, but yet you say it would only take a well placed word or two to bring everything into question. so what? if the birds are so common there must be facts and figures and statictics to show this, so couple that with the amount of damage pigeons do to crops, and the talk that they breed all year round, are at an all time high etc, then i dont think we have too much to worry about really.

 

personally, i feel the biggest threat to us is all this talk of sport. yes, i enjoy shooting, but i dont class myself as a sportsman, and i think some people need to get their heads round this. pigeons are not on the general licence for sport, they are on for crop protection and for health reasons. no anti, no matter how deluded or well connected they are, can argue that pigeons do not cause crop damage and that theyre droppings do not cause health problems (and having some relatives who were pigeon fanciers i know the health hazards), therefore as long as pigeon numbers are high then we should be ok. HOWEVER, when it comes down to talk of sport, its very simple in the eyes of an anti - shooting for sport = killing for fun!! how can we fight to keep shooting when we are handing over easy victories like this to the anti's? and how can we justify shooting to the government if we let up on the birds when tings get a bit tough for them??

 

you know, its one thing have morals and feel compassion for our quarry, but quite another to shoot yourself in the foot over it

Edited January 11, 2010 by babbyc1000

[M ROBSON]

I've no doubt there are plenty of genuine individuals on here but I often feel that when it comes down to debating certain issues there are individuals that jump on the "moral high ground" wagon to try and gain some sort of kudos.

 

 

Mark.

Edited January 11, 2010 by M ROBSON

[the pelt man]

Woodies are on GL because they are a pest, i don't know of any other way of shooting them apart from on the GL which may be wrong as they could be classed as game. But as far as i know you can only shoot them on the GL, if you now choose to leave them alone and show a bit of compassion and preserve your shoot then we should loose them on GL as we are no longer shooting them as a pest but as sport.

 

Maybe i should put all my Rat traps away as they are finding it hard at the moment, yes they are a pest but show a little compassion .

 

We shoot woodies as a pest and its just nice that there meat is tasty and we can sell them to a Game dealer but that is just a lucky biproduct from something that needs to be reduced in great numbers, and a bird that could become a plague.

 

If we leave these poor birds alone so they dont have a bad time then there numbers will increase ten fold, the GL is for us to reduce there numbers, not show compassion.

 

PELTMAN

 

 

Sorry for my own Quote but:

 

As soon as you start talking about saving Wood Pigeon becauce they are finding it hard you put into question the hole point off them being on the GL.

 

Pigeon are on the GL because they are classed as a pest. The rape down our way is still covered in snow but the Pigeon are managing to get at it.

 

There existing numbers and there ability to bread at the rate they do means there numbers can boom so they have to be REDUCED, that is why the are on the GL.

 

PELTMAN

[sako751sg]

I've no doubt there are plenty of genuine individuals on here but I often feel that when it comes down to debating certain issues there are individuals that jump on the "moral high ground" wagon to try and gain some sort of kudos.

 

 

Mark.

 

My thoughts exactly.And far too many have no idea about the species they comment about.I feel no need to comment on someones sport unless it is breaking the law.

[Fisherman Mike]

Lets not get acrimoniuos guys, this has been an interesting debate to date and very proportionate in opinion.

 

Some agreee with my original sentiments, some do not, some are sitting on the fence and some are just hardened assassins

 

All I know is that I shoot pigeons generally when their numbers locally build up to an extent that they are a serious threat to crops on the farms that the Landownners let me shoot over.

 

Im not taking the moral high ground or seeking any kudos when I say that I dont go out looking for weekly opportunity to shoot a pigeon just for fun. Im happy that I am being disciplined and compassionate about my quarry and its obvious that many on the forum feel the same.

 

Each to his own.

 

Its goodnight from me.

 

Cheers FM

[M ROBSON]

BM,

 

unfortunately babby you are right. it is" killing for fun" ultimately

 

 

To quote a friend of mine,

One of the things that the antis throw at us is that we "kill for sport" or that we "enjoy killing". In fact, of course, only the most depraved pervert would get any pleasure from killing any wild creature. We do not kill for sport. We hunt for sport, we shoot for sport of we fish for sport but we only kill to provide food or to control pests. If you ever feel that you are enjoying killing, then you have killed too many.

 

I think he sums it up nicely.

 

Cheers,

Mark.

Edited January 11, 2010 by M ROBSON

[the pelt man]

BM,

 

 

 

 

To quote a friend of mine,

 

 

I think he sums it up nicely.

 

Cheers,

Mark.

 

 

There is a tremendous weight of history behind this act- not just social history, but evolutionary history. And as I walk up the edge of a wood with my gun, hoping to bag a swooping wood pigeon or a scurrying rabbit, I am aware that my motivations, like those of all our hunting ancestors, are largely connected with my stomach.

Then comes the sighting of the quarry, and in an instant the mind becomes entirely focused on the movement of the animal, the jink of its run or the arc of its flight. Perhaps there is a bit of stalking to be done- our attempts to regain the stealth and cunning of our ancestors may be pretty hopeless, but it always feels good to discover that the instinct is still there.

As you pull the trigger, the gap betweenn you and the seemingly unreachable quarry is closed in an instant. The moment of death, as beast tumbles or bird crashes to the ground, is an emotional one that combines the triumpth of possession and power with contradicttory feelings of respect and regret. then comes a period of contemplation, almost mourning, as the corpse is carried home, a pang which slowly subsides, giving way to anticipation of the feast to come.

 

NOT my words but those of Hugh Fearnley-Whittinggstall

 

But this is what Hunting/shooting is all about to me and i wish i could put it as well as Mr Whittingstall

 

 

PELTMAN

[Cranfield]

A number of posts have been removed and posts quoting those posts have also gone.

 

Keep the personal comments/insults out of the discussion please.

[njc110381]

On the land I shoot there are areas which have little snow. The birds seem to be managing ok although they are a lot denser on the green bits.

 

I shot a Crow off of the muck heap yesterday. I'll be going out to shoot some more now. I recon a few dead Crows will be a welcome meal for something

[Dr D]

How did the farmer know he lost 4k ? rape is roughly £250 per tonne that means he lost approx 6 acres to pigeons or approx 16 tonnes of crops at harvest.

Most losses on crops is down to poor crop rotation other pests and diseases .

I have never seen a field of rape lost to pigeon damage and have had one field yield better with sheep grazing t when it became to advanced eg proven with sat technolgy given a yield map of the field where I had strpped grazed it and a clear increase in the grazed section .

Now crop damage of peas and flattered barley wheat etc can be massive one field of peas it would have been better off using a hoover than a combine.

I didn't say it was rape. It's cabbage and other young green plants.

[Dr D]

also, on the subject of other vermin (starlings in particular) I am plagued with farmers at the moment wanting them shot in cattle sheds. The are in thousands and cause all sorts of damage.

[rjimmer]

also, on the subject of other vermin (starlings in particular) I am plagued with farmers at the moment wanting them shot in cattle sheds. The are in thousands and cause all sorts of damage.

 

It was starlings that were thought to have brought Foot-&-Mouth to the Isle-of-Wight some years ago.

 

They are now protected as an endangered species, I believe, but you may be able to get a special license to control them. You wouldn't think there is a licensing system to shoot herons, but there is.

[Dr D]

actually in Northern Ireland they are fair game.

[Stillsy]

So today i got a phone call from the farmer asking me to sort out the pigeons on one of his rape fields? I respect what you say about showing compassion but with the combination of berries and rape I think there is enough food to get the birds through it. You talk about the hard winters in the 80's, this winter might well be as bad but were they growing the amount of rape were growing now a days? Where I am there is enough rape showing through, I went for a wonder early and shot 12 every one still had thick yellow fat covering it and all of the crops were full of ivy berries and rape and we are in the 'worst affected areas' having 3-5 inches last night! I don't like the idea of shooting hundreds in this weather but being a little more respectable to your quarry may be needed, being a little more picky with shots, stop at a certain number! Everyone struggles to get permission and i know you can loose it as quick as you get it! and there are plenty other people on the hunt for land!

Stillsy

[Blunderbuss]

There is a tremendous weight of history behind this act- not just social history, but evolutionary history. And as I walk up the edge of a wood with my gun, hoping to bag a swooping wood pigeon or a scurrying rabbit, I am aware that my motivations, like those of all our hunting ancestors, are largely connected with my stomach.

Then comes the sighting of the quarry, and in an instant the mind becomes entirely focused on the movement of the animal, the jink of its run or the arc of its flight. Perhaps there is a bit of stalking to be done- our attempts to regain the stealth and cunning of our ancestors may be pretty hopeless, but it always feels good to discover that the instinct is still there.

As you pull the trigger, the gap betweenn you and the seemingly unreachable quarry is closed in an instant. The moment of death, as beast tumbles or bird crashes to the ground, is an emotional one that combines the triumpth of possession and power with contradicttory feelings of respect and regret. then comes a period of contemplation, almost mourning, as the corpse is carried home, a pang which slowly subsides, giving way to anticipation of the feast to come.

 

NOT my words but those of Hugh Fearnley-Whittinggstall

 

But this is what Hunting/shooting is all about to me and i wish i could put it as well as Mr Whittingstall

 

 

PELTMAN

 

I already had huge respect for HFW and his ethos, devouring his books and TV programs with relish. But that quote articulates far more eloquently than I ever could, exactly what motivates me to shoot live, edible quarry. What a top bloke

[Mec 9000]

Quite interesting reading this topic so I am offering my opinion on pigeon shooting.

By shooting pigeon in winter I believe we conserve the woodpigeon from total starvation of our local flocks as there are fewer mouths to feed with limited food. Not really doing the farmer a favour in the long term then are we. Yes they are an agricultural pest and have caused many farmers the costs of reseeding at times therefore for financial reasons they must be controlled at the time of doing damage. Do I shoot them for crop protection, well not being a farmer I have to say no I don't in the first instance, if I did shoot them to protect a farmers crop then I would charge him for the service, Why then have I been a pigeon shooter for over 30yrs. I enjoy the craft and the shooting, the farmer has the targets and the means to allow me to pursue my interests and I do him a service in return. Many places charge guns for a days pigeon shooting. Why would anyone pay to protect anothers crop it's ridiculous, they pay for the sport and the targets which allows the owner to make and save money at the same time. How many would pay their employer just to work for them, no one I would guess unless maybe the benefits outweighed the cost. I don't kid myself as to my reasons and have invested a lot of money in my guns, deeks, magnets, landrover and all the other bits and bobs that goes with the the pursuit of pigeon, why then would I consider myself a kind of unpaid employee of the farmer bent on protecting his crop. We serve each other and it will be a cold day in hell before I pay cash as well save his crop.

Gerry

[Cookiemonsterandmerlin.]

Quite interesting reading this topic so I am offering my opinion on pigeon shooting.

By shooting pigeon in winter I believe we conserve the woodpigeon from total starvation of our local flocks as there are fewer mouths to feed with limited food. Not really doing the farmer a favour in the long term then are we. Yes they are an agricultural pest and have caused many farmers the costs of reseeding at times therefore for financial reasons they must be controlled at the time of doing damage. Do I shoot them for crop protection, well not being a farmer I have to say no I don't in the first instance, if I did shoot them to protect a farmers crop then I would charge him for the service, Why then have I been a pigeon shooter for over 30yrs. I enjoy the craft and the shooting, the farmer has the targets and the means to allow me to pursue my interests and I do him a service in return. Many places charge guns for a days pigeon shooting. Why would anyone pay to protect anothers crop it's ridiculous, they pay for the sport and the targets which allows the owner to make and save money at the same time. How many would pay their employer just to work for them, no one I would guess unless maybe the benefits outweighed the cost. I don't kid myself as to my reasons and have invested a lot of money in my guns, deeks, magnets, landrover and all the other bits and bobs that goes with the the pursuit of pigeon, why then would I consider myself a kind of unpaid employee of the farmer bent on protecting his crop. We serve each other and it will be a cold day in hell before I pay cash as well save his crop.

Gerry

Cracking post with alot of sense spoke .

 

I belive one of the sole reasons fox hunting got ban was they claimed on one hand it was pest control.

 

And on the other hand they said they did not catch many so it was not cruel and they done it purley for pest control.

 

I know that cost of keeping a hunter for 12 months of the year outweights the damage a charllie can do.

 

Regards OTH

Edited January 14, 2010 by Over the hill

[shawi72uk]

Im sure i read a thread on here saying that the pigeons didnt do any damage this time of year so im going to give them a break till it lets up on them

[Stillsy]

Im sure i read a thread on here saying that the pigeons didnt do any damage this time of year so im going to give them a break till it lets up on them

 

Leave it to long and you'll run the risk of shooting them when they start breeding/ coupling up!

[Windy]

Leave it to long and you'll run the risk of shooting them when they start breeding/ coupling up!

 

These days....do they ever stop?