shotgun laws bound to be tightend because of 1 man

[Vipa]

they are also useful for a despatch in the field - wounded fox or deer. Absolutely essential?

 

I think if you re-read my post you will see that this is covered off. Pistols are still available as long as you can show good reason, it's just a tad more difficult than section 1.

[Vipa]

Semi-auto rifles have plenty of sporting uses and deserve to be in private hands. Here in the U.S, the AR-15 is the most popular rifle in the country, especially now that Obama's in office. According to ATF stats, 22% of all rifles sold in 2008 in the U.S were AR pattern rifles. It's the most popular gun in medium to long range competitive shooting and has gotten hugely popular in the hunting community as well. I own 2 of them and they're great for foxes and the occasional coyote. But usually I just use them for target shooting. If there's one thing shooters the world over should know by now, it's that hanging a particular group of gun owners out to dry won't appease the anti's, it'll just embolden them.

 

Sadly we aren't talking about the USA, it's geography or it's society.

[Dr W]

Keep up the good work BASC.

 

Despite the bad press that sometimes comes their way, they're out there now acting on our behalf to make sure we have a voice.

 

This is a perfect example that our membership isn't just for insurance!

[David BASC]

Thanks,

 

Yes, we do get flack from time to time - but as I think we are clearly showing we thankfully have the resources to react when shooting faces a crisis.

 

May I take this opportunity to say a very big thank you to all BASC members who have supported us- it is onlt due to your support that we can do what we do.

 

David

[Lez325]

Always good to here our subscriptions are being well spent - Thank you BASC

 

Les

[Dr_Scholl]

And what important jobs do YOU and the vast majority of shooters do with your "tools"? I think you'll find the overwhelming majority of people shoot purely for fun, not because it is an essential job that needs doing, not because they're competing at national/international level, for no other reason that it is fun for them to shoot. Yes thats right i'm not afraid to admit i get a kick out of shooting I'm sorry if this sounds like i'm having a go but this frankly 'anti' view point of certain types of firearms is what destroyed a co-ordinated defence of handgun shooting 13 years ago.

 

Apart from it just being FUN (theres that dirty word again) shooting as many different types of guns as possible, there were informal, club, county, national and international competitions held specifically using self-loading full-bore rifles and handguns. Just look at the IPSC website for what people in this country used to do, and what hundreds of thousands of people still do all around the world.

 

You might not like or have any knowledge of handgun/self-loading rifles but please don't try to deride someone that does.

 

Mark

 

Took the words right out of my mouth.

[Dr_T]

Thanks,

 

Yes, we do get flack from time to time - but as I think we are clearly showing we thankfully have the resources to react when shooting faces a crisis.

 

May I take this opportunity to say a very big thank you to all BASC members who have supported us- it is onlt due to your support that we can do what we do.

 

David

 

A big thanks from me also. Keep up the good work. Other gun owners should show their support too.

[wymberley]

As we start Day 3 my feeling is that, given the awful circumstances, we're about where we want to be. But that doesn't mean that BASC is complacent. This is going to run for some time.

 

There is political consensus that there shouldn't be a knee jerk reaction (we're in touch with both government and opposition) there's agreement to wait until inquiries are complete. That will allow emotions to die down and hopefully sense prevail. The press have done licensing and gun laws to death and will move on so long as we don't feed their speculation. The next stage - I suspect - will be press debates between gun control campaigners and ourselves - and I believe we can win these. The key work now is to develop what we want the government to do. They will not want to damage a recreation that puts £1.6 billion into the rural economy each year. Cameron's comments on not being able to legislate for a lunatic are significant. Obviously if the law was less bureaucratic then the police would have more time to spot a bad 'un than chasing paper as they do now. This may be an opportunity for very sensible reform.

 

The antis were caught on the hop and they didn't start getting on the media until the afternoon of Day 2, by then the line that there should be no rush to action was secure and they couldn't shake it.

 

We should be careful about speculating on how the law may change - don't want to give our opposition ammunition.

 

I can't tell you how glad I've been to have the resources of the new Communications centre to deploy, it ensured that the systems and plans we had in place for this sort of incident ran smoothly. It's extraordinary to think that we only moved into it two months ago. Somebody up there loves us!

 

Christopher

 

Thank you, BASC, you're doing great and the following in no way detracts from that. I remain somewhat sceptical. If you are at the bottom of the very slippery pole that is politics and want to climb higher, a good move is to echo what the man at the top has said. Consequently, is it "consensus" or brown nosing? "Wait until inquiries are complete"; haven't I heard that before and did they wait? No.

Just one other point: there are various posts on this matter relating to semi-autos. I have a bee in my bonnet about this and I'm sorry, chaps, but I can't help thinking that had we called them by their more accurate description - self loading - that there may well not be all the fuss. The media pick up on "auto" and its associated ramifications.

Cheers

[Cranfield]

It may be surprising how many members will comment on a thread, without having read the preceding posts.

 

To all of you, I suggest you concentrate hard on this sentence in Christopher Graffius' post above.

 

"We should be careful about speculating on how the law may change - don't want to give our opposition ammunition."

[Nial]

There's an argument that there would me more deaths if private ownership of rifles was

banned....

 

This report...

 

http://www.deercollisions.co.uk/web-conten...cotpressrel.pdf

 

..says that in a 3 year period in Scotland there were 74 injuries and 16 serious injuries,

with an occaisional death.

 

The deer problem's getting worse in the UK, I read recently they think numbers need

culled by 600,000.

 

As far as I know the vast majority of culling is done by private individuals with rifles

for sport. If these rifles were banned and deer numbers increased as a result there's a

chance the number of road deaths from deer strikes would reach several a year in the UK.

 

 

Nial.

[wymberley]

It may be surprising how many members will comment on a thread, without having read the preceding posts.

 

To all of you, I suggest you concentrate hard on this sentence in Christopher Graffius' post above.

 

"We should be careful about speculating on how the law may change - don't want to give our opposition ammunition."

 

Point taken. Could you explain, "Obviously if the law was less beaurocratic then the police would have more time to spot a bad 'un than chasing paper as thet do now"?

However, your point, as said, is noted and is taken on board.

Cheers

[Breastman]

Ok... without getting into a debate here, if my sums are correct you were 9 when assault rifles/semi autos were banned and 18 when the handgun ban came in. Whilst I accept you may well have been in the forces and also may have lived abroad please don't get all 'boys toys' and try to tell us that you have experience of sporting use of these 'useful tools' in the UK, especially semi auto rifles!

 

I, with heavy heart, had to hand in my Beretta 92 in 1997 and ended up binning the vast majority of my reloading gear. Yes I have knowledge and experience of handguns in a sporting environment and military hardware in the Army.

 

My observation wasn't aming to deride you but please be realistic... Rifles are useful tools.... for deer management and pest control. Shotguns are useful tools for crop protection and vermin control.... The only time an assault rifle or handgun (with a few VERY isolated exceptions such as humane dispatch for which you can still get a handgun slot on your ticket) become a 'useful tool' is in the hands of the police or armed forces.

 

By all means sing from the rooftops your love of guns and everything that goes with them... I personally love shooting and everything gun and militaria related.... there's nothing to be ashamed of and whilst I really, really miss my pistol shooting and would love to think that one day we could get that back, at the same time I am happy and content that, in the real world that we live in, these types of weapon have no place in private hands.

 

Like you i don't want to get into a lengthy debate about this and i think several others have already responded to your post with my main feelings, i think its just something we'll have to disagree on, but thats life

 

As you point out i was 9 when self-loading full-bores were banned. I have never used one in this country, but have abroad, purely recreationally. That, however was not the point, the point was i wasn't specifically talking about only my interests, but everyone and every type of shooting. I'm presuming that you believe that there should be no guns in private hands that aren't put to a tangable use, and target shooting and plinking aren't tangeable uses? This is where we differ.

 

With regard to pistols, yes i only shot them in this country for 1 year before the ban, and only for target shooting Which i believe, is a 'good (enough) reason' in Police vernacular As has already been said they do have uses for what you regard as legitimate, but their main use is target shooting, which i believe is legitimate. Simples.

 

All the best

 

Mark

Edited June 4, 2010 by Breastman

[the running man]

Cranfield,u should remove every post on here that gives the antis Or a journo ideas or before one of the posts on this tragic subject gets put on the tv.. We should not be givin people anti anything shooting ideas for them to exploit.just leave the basc updates on here.

[Richie10]

Why would a taxi driver need a gun only proffessional snipers need guns.

 

Seen this quote a few times. Where do all these proffessional snipers come from and how do they support themselves financially being a full time sniper?

 

The public want to ban guns, crossbows and knives because it makes killing people easier. Have they not thought of bombs and cars as well, take away one people will find another way.

[wymberley]

Cranfield,u should remove every post on here that gives the antis Or a journo ideas or before one of the posts on this tragic subject gets put on the tv.. We should not be givin people anti anything shooting ideas for them to exploit.just leave the basc updates on here.

Hi,

Although he hasn't answered my question, Cranfield, as I have recognised, was right to jump on me. You, on the other hand, have altered your opinion since post #38 and now what you are suggesting is called censorship. Yes, as Christopher and Cranfield have said we should be careful but without the freedom of speech this forum would not exist.

Cheers

[spence]

Just heard the preview of the J Vine show on radio 2, discussion on the idea that anyone applying for a certificate/licence should make it public so that local objections can be raised as with planning applications.............................. thoughts?

[MJN]

Just heard the preview of the J Vine show on radio 2, discussion on the idea that anyone applying for a certificate/licence should make it public so that local objections can be raised as with planning applications.............................. thoughts?

 

Not a good idea I think. As it raises security issues about publicsing the fact that guns are/maybe in specific houses !

 

M.

[Breastman]

Just heard the preview of the J Vine show on radio 2, discussion on the idea that anyone applying for a certificate/licence should make it public so that local objections can be raised as with planning applications.............................. thoughts?

 

Apart from the security issue as raised above, effectively creating a burglars shopping list, what happens if you don't know/get on with your neighbours? You don't get your certificate because of a disagreement about parking, your kids have been too noisy, they just don't like guns . . . . completely untenable. Objections for planning applications are only taken into account if they are for genuine reasons e.g. the extension is overbearing, negatively affects privacy etc, any objection made just because the neighbour doesn't think the other person should have an extension, doesn't get on with the other person etc is dismissed, and rightly so

 

Mark

[SimonT]

Just heard the preview of the J Vine show on radio 2, discussion on the idea that anyone applying for a certificate/licence should make it public so that local objections can be raised as with planning applications.............................. thoughts?

 

All very good but then you get the anti's that object to anything or people who dont understand why you would need a shotgun/rifle. It is par with the doctors that dont sign when applying for a fac, as they dont agree with shooting.

 

I think the dust has to settle and then we see what is to happen, let BASC do what they need to do...

[v5uk]

Just heard the preview of the J Vine show on radio 2, discussion on the idea that anyone applying for a certificate/licence should make it public so that local objections can be raised as with planning applications.............................. thoughts?

 

not a good idea at all..

 

So unfortunate that someone who was tipped over the edge, had access to any form of guns, but if he didn’t he would of still killed (not in so great numbers but would of still killed never the less) with a knife, axe, hammer what ever he could of got his hands on.

 

Tragic for all concerned in Cumbria and all of the shooting community

 

I wait to see the outcome

[the running man]

Hi,

Although he hasn't answered my question, Cranfield, as I have recognised, was right to jump on me. You, on the other hand, have altered your opinion since post #38 and now what you are suggesting is called censorship. Yes, as Christopher and Cranfield have said we should be careful but without the freedom of speech this forum would not exist.

Cheers

fair comment wymberley,my opinons not changed from post 38, I just realised that it and others won't do us any good if they gets on tv! Thinkin a little straighter now after the initial ban worries.

[Vipa]

Like you i don't want to get into a lengthy debate about this and i think several others have already responded to your post with my main feelings, i think its just something we'll have to disagree on, but thats life

 

As you point out i was 9 when self-loading full-bores were banned. I have never used one in this country, but have abroad, purely recreationally. That, however was not the point, the point was i wasn't specifically talking about only my interests, but everyone and every type of shooting. I'm presuming that you believe that there should be no guns in private hands that aren't put to a tangable use, and target shooting and plinking aren't tangeable uses? This is where we differ.

 

With regard to pistols, yes i only shot them in this country for 1 year before the ban, and only for target shooting Which i believe, is a 'good (enough) reason' in Police vernacular As has already been said they do have uses for what you regard as legitimate, but their main use is target shooting, which i believe is legitimate. Simples.

 

All the best

 

Mark

 

I think you and others who have (understandably, I suppose as it's very easy to read into something what you want when feelings are running high) jumped on my comments have either not read my post properly or have misunderstood what I said.

 

Let's get this straight, I love shooting, I love target shooting, I stalk, I pigeon shoot and, when the opportunity arrises (usually cash flow prevents it) I get involved in driven shoots. Before Dunblane I was a pistol shooter and everytime I go out with rifle or shotgun I enjoy myself.

 

In your original post you said

 

"reinstate the very useful tools we lost before" when refering to S/A rifles & handguns.

 

What I am saying is that in no way shape or form can you refer to assault rifles or handguns (as stated earlier with some VERY specific exceptions) as "very useful tools" when refering to them in civilan ownership terms. I agree, they are a desirable item and it would be great fun to be able to use and own them again but aside from target shooting, they serve NO purpose in civilan ownership.... remember, unlike the States or Northern Ireland, self defence is absolutely no reason to posess a handgun and thankfully, unless you live in one of the inner city hotspots, in the UK you are very unlikely to ever need to resort to such force. I am 44 years old and in my entire life I've never been or put myself in a position where I would need to defend myself with my fists let alone a weapon. Whatever you may think of this country or the direction it is heading, we are all privilaged to live in an incredibly safe environment unlike some places where you hve consciously worry about your personal security/safety!

 

BASC are doing a stirling job and that's why I am a member but we also need to ensure that we get accross to the non-shooting community that firearms do serve a useful purpose and are not just playthings for power mad potential nutters! Trust me, most of the population would question whether punching holes in paper was a reasonable reason to allow the private ownership of guns and I would hazard a guess and say that, in this day and age, if that's all guns were used for, this very sad episode would possibly see their prohibition. If we start stating things like assault rifles and handguns serve a useful purpose, we are just playing into the media's hands. We haven't got them anymore and the chances of getting them back are remote to none so we need to avoid, at all costs, using this as some sort of reason or excuse (however it may be spun) to get said weapons back into our gun cabinets.

 

That being the case we need to focus our efforts on educating the public and ensuring we can justify the continuation of the privilage we have been granted. We need to show that the community at large benefits from the use of guns, accidents are prevented due to deer control, crops are protected and health is preserved through the control of vermin. If you tried to justify your posession of any gun now based on the fact that you 'like it' and want to shoot bits of paper, I think the majority of the non-shooting public would, in the current climate, laugh at you and tell you to get a grip...... In a way, I would probably agree with their sentiment!

[Nial]

More useful information...

 

http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/ourwork/r...ecies/deer.aspx

 

"There are an estimated 30,000 - 50,000 vehicle collisions involving deer annually in the UK.

These result in 10-20 human fatalities"

 

There are as many people killed a year in deer collisions as in the Cumbria massacre.

 

If numbers aren't kept down by individuals with privately held firearms these numbers will go up.

 

 

 

Nial.

[Vipa]

More useful information...

 

http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/ourwork/r...ecies/deer.aspx

 

"There are an estimated 30,000 - 50,000 vehicle collisions involving deer annually in the UK.

These result in 10-20 human fatalities"

 

There are as many people killed a year in deer collisions as in the Cumbria massacre.

 

If numbers aren't kept down by individuals with privately held firearms these numbers will go up.

 

 

 

Nial.

 

And that, Nial, is exactly the kind of information we need to promote and publicise, not 'guns are useful because I can fire at bits of paper and get a kick out of it!'

 

Good info, well done

[Richie10]

People wouldn't see this as a valid reason, they would quote you Bambi.