bongodriver Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 As the topic suggests I was wondering if it was possible for me to supervise someone else to use my rifle whilst shooting on their land? I would be present at all times and the land belongs to the person, they don't hold an FAC but may be interested in the future. is that technically the same thing as mentoring? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 If you have an open ticket and they can give you permission to shoot then it is fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bongodriver Posted January 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 Thanks for the speedy reply, yes I have an open ticket and the idea is in return for a bit of coaching I would have permission to shoot on the land, mainly for zeroing because it's not rich in bunnies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huffhuff Posted March 22, 2011 Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 If you have an open ticket and they can give you permission to shoot then it is fine. Out of interest, why does it need to be an 'open' ticket? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted March 22, 2011 Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 Out of interest, why does it need to be an 'open' ticket? unless their land was already cleared i think firing on uncleared land without an open ticket could land you in hot water Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twitchynik Posted March 22, 2011 Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 unless their land was already cleared i think firing on uncleared land without an open ticket could land you in hot water Yes that's true for any situation. Is there any need for an open ticket in this particular scenario if plod have cleared the land for the rifle/calibre to be used? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 22, 2011 Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 no its purely in case the land isn't cleared. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huffhuff Posted March 22, 2011 Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 That's what I thought. It just wasn't too clear for anybody else reading the post in future. It's a fairly common question I imagine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triscrx Posted March 22, 2011 Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 In the event it was not a friends land and just a friend using a spare rifle is this legal if they are under supervision at all times? Land is all cleared etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luckyshot Posted March 22, 2011 Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 In the event it was not a friends land and just a friend using a spare rifle is this legal if they are under supervision at all times? Land is all cleared etc Each force have their own personal view on this. Durham police allow a fac holder to let a non fac holder use their rifle on land they have permission on. Eg I am currently letting a non fac holder use my 243 in my presence whilst he is applying for his fac. Durham are ok with this as Im in contact with his flo and he advised this person to get some experience before he can have a cf rifle (has been given the go ahead for rf). The land isn't cleared for 243 but I have an open fac so there are no problems there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 (edited) In the event it was not a friends land and just a friend using a spare rifle is this legal if they are under supervision at all times? Land is all cleared etc It doesn't matter who owns the land, if you are the Occupier, you can lend your gun to anyone to use on the land as long as they are under you supervision! EXEMPTIONS FROM THE REQUIREMENT TO HOLD A CERTIFICATE.doc Edited March 23, 2011 by Dekers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeds chimp Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 just done a search for this advice....I have just been told by Norfolk Firearms that I cant let anyone use my gun on land I have and also that if I want to take anyone out on a CLOSED ticket than they need to get written permission themself even if the land is already cleared and on my permission slip it states I can take out other shots!!! Just wish advice was black and white and not grey :sly: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 It is black and white they don't make the law up, if the land is cleared and you have permission to take someone else then that is absolutely fine if they are restricted to land passed for that caliber. The using your gun needs a little more interpretation but you need to be in legal terms the occupier. Some think this is covered with written permission some think you need to pay for the ground to qualify so its pretty grey. Its very interesting firearms depts making things up like this and giving the go ahead or not as they actually would have limited input if it ever went to court as it would be down to the arresting officer the cps and the law book so to speak. Most of the FEO's are civilians and just interpreting the law in their own way they do not make the law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrelsniffer Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 I asked the BASC a while ago which was related to another query..but when i asked if my mate could shoot my rifle on the land i have perm on they said NO i also asked if i would be able to shoot my friends rifle same calibre 223 as what i use they said NO we both have open certs..and i would be breaking the law... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeds chimp Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 this is what I mean as I want to take someone out on a closed ticket but dont want to fall foul of the law... as to be honest I dont want to ask the landowners for a permission slip for every person I take out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeds chimp Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 I asked the BASC a while ago which was related to another query..but when i asked if my mate could shoot my rifle on the land i have perm on they said NO i also asked if i would be able to shoot my friends rifle same calibre 223 as what i use they said NO we both have open certs..and i would be breaking the law... thats what they said to me and that I could not really take anyone out..then spoke to the FLO and they said no ...tried to ask about the section 16 part and I was just dismissed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 I asked the BASC a while ago which was related to another query..but when i asked if my mate could shoot my rifle on the land i have perm on they said NO i also asked if i would be able to shoot my friends rifle same calibre 223 as what i use they said NO we both have open certs..and i would be breaking the law... Which part of this does NOT apply to you then? EXEMPTIONS FROM THE REQUIREMENT TO HOLD A CERTIFICATE Shot guns 6.14 Section 11(5) of the 1968 Act allows an individual, without holding a shot gun certificate, to borrow a shot gun from the occupier of private premises and use it on those premises in the occupier’s presence. The presence of the occupier is normally taken to mean within sight and earshot of the individual borrowing the firearm. The term “occupier” is not defined in the Firearms Acts, nor has a Court clarified its meaning. However, the Firearms Consultative Committee in their 5th Annual report recommended that the provisions of section 27 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 be adopted. This states that ‘“occupier” in relation to any land, other than the foreshore, includes any person having any right of hunting, shooting, fishing or taking game or fish’. In the absence of any firm definition for firearms purposes, it is suggested that each chief officer of police may wish to make use of this definition. On some occasions though, where the status of a certificate holder acting as an occupier is an issue, the chief officer may need to consider seeking the advice of counsel. Section 57(4) provides that “premises” shall include any land. The borrower may be of any age but an offence may be committed under section 22(3) if a minor under the age of 15 is not supervised by a person over 21 years of age. 6.15 Similarly, section 11(6) of the 1968 Act allows an individual, without holding a shot gun certificate, to use a shot gun at a time and place approved for shooting at artificial targets by the chief officer of police for the area in which that place is situated. As the approval of such time and place is prescribed by law and there may be duty of care issues involved, chief officers may wish not only to satisfy themselves that such events are properly conducted and supervised, but also to establish that there are no public safety issues involved. When an exemption is granted, the chief officer should advise the organiser that they are responsible for ensuring, so far as is practicable, that adequate precautions are taken for the safety of the participants and any spectators. Shoots at which participants hold certificates do not require an exemption under section 11(6). Organisers operating in conjunction with business, such as corporate entertainment, will have additional responsibilities under the Health and Safety at Work Act. Borrowed rifles on private premises 6.16 Section 16(1) of the 1988 Act enables a person to borrow a rifle from the occupier of private premises and to use it on those premises in the presence of either the occupier or their servant without holding a firearm certificate in respect of that rifle. It should be noted that this gives slightly more flexibility in the use of a borrowed rifle than is permissible with the use of a shot gun as described in paragraph 6.14, in that the borrowed rifle can also be used in the presence of the servant of the occupier. However, the occupier and/or their servant must hold a firearm certificate in respect of the firearm being used, and the borrower, who must be accompanied by the certificate holder (whether it is the occupier or their servant), must comply with the conditions of the certificate. These may include a safekeeping requirement and, in some cases, territorial restrictions. Section 57(4) of the 1968 Act defines “premises” as including any land. The effect of the provision is to allow a person visiting a private estate to borrow and use a rifle without a certificate. The exemption does not extend to persons under the age of 17 or to other types of firearm. There is no notification required on the loan of a firearm under these circumstances. A borrowed rifle should not be specifically identified as such on a “keeper’s” or “landowner’s” firearm certificate. The term “in the presence of” is not defined in law but is generally interpreted as being within sight and earshot. 6.17 Section 16(2) of the 1988 Act provides for a person borrowing a rifle in accordance with section 16(1) of the 1988 Act to purchase or acquire ammunition for use in the rifle, and to have it in their possession during the period for which the rifle is borrowed, without holding a certificate. The borrower’s possession of the ammunition must comply with the conditions on the certificate of the person in whose presence they are and the amount of ammunition borrowed must not exceed that which the certificate holder is authorised to have in their possession at that time. It should be noted that the borrower may only take possession of the ammunition during the period of the loan of the rifle at which time they will be in the presence of the certificate holder. If the persons selling or handing over the ammunition are not certificate holders, it may be necessary for them to see the certificate to satisfy themselves that the terms of this section have been met and that the amount of ammunition the borrower wishes to acquire is no greater than that which the certificate holder is authorised to possess. However, the details of the transaction need not be recorded on the certificate. NO is not an answer, ask WHY and ask which part of the Firearms Law above is wrong! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piebob Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 BASC do appear to be giving out some dubious wrong advice in this area. It really is pretty straightforward, as Dekers has already posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artschool Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 Another set of daft laws that are unenforceable. How does anyone get experience! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 Wasn't there an example fo this very case recently regarding a Welsh(?) rugby player who used his fathers rifle to shoot something from a bedroom window in his fathers house?And didn't Bill Harriman from BASC represent the defendant,who wasn.t convicted?Have done a search on here but can't find it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeds chimp Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 Wasn't there an example fo this very case recently regarding a Welsh(?) rugby player who used his fathers rifle to shoot something from a bedroom window in his fathers house?And didn't Bill Harriman from BASC represent the defendant,who wasn.t convicted?Have done a search on here but can't find it. I know the case you are on about http://www.basc.org.uk/en/media/pressreleases.cfm/prid/63624938-FDEC-470A-886E04D2831391F6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 I know the case you are on about http://www.basc.org.uk/en/media/pressreleases.cfm/prid/63624938-FDEC-470A-886E04D2831391F6 That's the one! Thankyou. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted July 21, 2011 Report Share Posted July 21, 2011 this is what I mean as I want to take someone out on a closed ticket but dont want to fall foul of the law... as to be honest I dont want to ask the landowners for a permission slip for every person I take out Steady, those posts could be interpreted as you're running a business! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrelsniffer Posted July 21, 2011 Report Share Posted July 21, 2011 Speak to BASC or who ever you may be with im sure they would tell you. Mick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catweazle Posted July 21, 2011 Report Share Posted July 21, 2011 I think this part; This states that ‘“occupier” in relation to any land, other than the foreshore, includes any person having any right of hunting, shooting, fishing or taking game or fish’. In the absence of any firm definition for firearms purposes, it is suggested that each chief officer of police may wish to make use of this definition. could do with clarification. Having the "right" to shoot is not the same as having "permission" to shoot. The land owner or owner of sporting rights has the "right" in law, whereas the average shooter merely has "permission" to shoot there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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