Deer and shotgun?

[wildfowler.250]

Hi, I was just wondering if I could pick peoples brains on the above subject? I think I remember reading something about being able to shoot deer with a shotgun, using pellets of a certain size? If they are doing crop damage?

 

 

I'm not planning it but could someone enlighten me please?

 

 

Thanks!

[highseas]

the replys you will get is

1 geta real rifle

2 you cruel sick ******* ect ect

3 ile come and shoot deer for you

4 no its illigle at all times

 

well you can with owners permission and aaa or larger. shotguns can have and do have a place in deer controle we use them on the estate, as its christmas trees walke them out and shoot,simples

[wildfowler.250]

the replys you will get is

1 geta real rifle

2 you cruel sick ******* ect ect

3 ile come and shoot deer for you

4 no its illigle at all times

 

well you can with owners permission and aaa or larger. shotguns can have and do have a place in deer controle we use them on the estate, as its christmas trees walke them out and shoot,simples

 

Thanks. I thought you could use AAA but I've never seen it on BASC's website or anything. I only shoot them with rifles but my thinking was that in most cases deer are doing crop damage. So I'm surprised the use of shotguns for them is not more common.

 

 

Thanks

[njc110381]

You can use a shotgun under special circumstances only. I'm pretty sure other methods of control must have failed (eg fencing) and they must be doing serious crop damage that cannot be prevented in another way.

 

I have shot Roe and Muntjac with a shotgun before and it's perfectly humane as long as you respect the limitations of the gun. I use AAA myself out of a 12g, which is the smallest legal pellet size and calibre for the job. Bigger pellets would give a really bad pattern so best avoided I think.

 

There's no doubt about it a rifle is better, but a shotgun can work too. Generally I use the shotgun barrel of my combi if it is unsafe to fire the rifle in that direction. Any other time I would use the rifle.

[wildfowler.250]

Thanks! So I suppose you would have to have deer fencing up first, rather than just a normal fenced off area for game crop/turnips/trees ect.

 

As I mentioned I'm not off buying AAA shells just now or anything! Just good to know

[sitsinhedges]

I think that there's also a closed shop mentality among stalkers and the BDS, and they don't want anyone else getting a piece of their action. This is why we lost bow hunting.

 

A lot of people, myself included, would like to be able to take the odd deer without having to go to the pallaver and expense of getting a centre fire rifle. Especially with smaller deer like muntjac, at close range, it's no more cruel than shooting a fox.

[njc110381]

I don't think there is any set in stone rule about fencing. It just comes down to what would be considered to be "reasonable measures" to prevent the damage before the shooting takes place.

 

For me I like the area to be quite enclosed. More often than not I will shoot them if chasing them causes them to not be able to find their way back out. If they could simply jump a 4' stock fence it's not really "reasonable" to expect it to keep them out.

[Vince Green]

The real problem is range, could you ever really hope to get that close to a deer?. If you can it would only be with muntys because round here the bigger deer are far too elusive.

 

Many years ago,on my friends farm the bottom boundary was a wood belonging to somebody who bought it as some kind of investment but didn't seem to take much interest in it. I think he had hopes of turning it into a caravan site.There were occasionally deer in it and the poachers were like flies round a cowpat. I have seen deer that had obviously been wounded by shotguns and died later. And as for crossbows and bowhunting, I'm glad its banned. I am sure most experienced stalkers will have seen deer with old shotgun injuries, and ones walking about with a crossbow bolt sticking out of their sides.

 

I'm afraid I go wth the "get a proper rifle" brigade

Edited April 3, 2011 by Vince Green

[CharlieT]

The Deer Act specifically prohibits the use of any smooth bored gun except in two distinc circumstances which are laid out by the act.

 

The first use is humane killing.

 

The second is the so called farmers defence. Be aware though that this exemption does not give every Tom , **** and Harry who has permission to shoot on someones land the right to use a shotgun on deer. It is a dreadful thing to see shotgun wounded deer running about and quite why anyone would wish to use a shotgun is quite beyond me. If you can't afford a rifle then apply for solid slugs and use those in your shotgun or leave the poor things alone. Any landowner can afford to buy a rifle that is upto the job.

 

The Act states:

 

(1)Subject to subsection (3) below, a person to whom this section applies shall not be guilty of an offence under section 2 above by reason of—.

(a)the taking or killing of any deer by means of shooting, or.

(b)the injuring of any deer by means of shooting in an attempt to take or kill it,.

on any cultivated land, pasture or enclosed woodland.

(2)Subject to subsection (3) below, a person to whom this section applies shall not be guilty of an offence under section 4(2)(a) above by reason of the use, for the purpose of taking or killing any deer on any land, of any smooth-bore gun of not less gauge than 12 bore which is loaded with—.

(a)a cartridge containing a single non-spherical projectile weighing not less than 22.68 grammes (350 grains); or.

(b)a cartridge purporting to contain shot each of which is .203 inches (5.16 millimetres) in diameter (that is to say, size AAA)..

(3)A person to whom this section applies shall not be entitled to rely on the defence provided by subsection (1) or subsection (2) above as respects anything done in relation to any deer on any land unless he shows that—.

(a)he had reasonable grounds for believing that deer of the same species were causing, or had caused, damage to crops, vegetables, fruit, growing timber or any other form of property on the land;.

(b)it was likely that further damage would be so caused and any such damage was likely to be serious; and.

©his action was necessary for the purpose of preventing any such damage..

(4)The persons to whom this section applies are—.

(a)the occupier of the land on which the action is taken;.

(b)any member of the occupier’s household normally resident on the occupier’s land, acting with the written authority of the occupier;.

©any person in the ordinary service of the occupier on the occupier’s land, acting with the written authority of the occupier; and.

(d)any person having the right to take or kill deer on the land on which the action is taken or any person acting with the written authority of a person having that right..

[HW682]

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1991/54/contents

 

I have noticed something interesting about the 1991 Deer Act before and never got round to discussing it, so here goes...

 

put simply, section 4 (list of prohibited weapons etc) tells you that generally it is not permitted to use a shotgun, except as allowed by the exemptions in sections 6-8.

 

Section 6 includes a clause for slaughtering

6 General exceptions to certain provisions of this Act.E+W+S+N.I..

..

..

 

(5)A person shall not be guilty of an offence under section 4(2)(a) above by reason of the use as a slaughtering instrument, for the purpose of killing any deer, of a smooth-bore gun which.

(a)is of not less gauge than 12 bore;.

(b)has a barrel less than 24 inches (609.6 millimetres) in length; and.

(c.)is loaded with a cartridge purporting to contain shot none of which is less than .203 inches (5.16 millimetres) in diameter (that is to say, size AAA or any larger size)..

 

section 7 includes the often quoted landowners exemption

7 Exceptions for occupiers etc. of land where deer are.E+W.

(2)Subject to subsection (3) below, a person to whom this section applies shall not be guilty of an offence under section 4(2)(a) above by reason of the use, for the purpose of taking or killing any deer on any land, of any smooth-bore gun of not less gauge than 12 bore which is loaded with.

(a)a cartridge containing a single non-spherical projectile weighing not less than 22.68 grammes (350 grains); or.

(b)a cartridge purporting to contain shot each of which is .203 inches (5.16 millimetres) in diameter (that is to say, size AAA)..

 

so..the landowners clause does not say AAA or larger - it just says AAA.

 

I wonder whether this is

1) a mistake in the web version. Presumabely there is a printed copy somewhere that takes precedence.

2) A ****-up when drafting the law. If so has it ever been raised or challenged by anybody such as BASC

3) they really did mean to limit it to AAA only and not AAA or larger.

 

This may be a bit of an anorak post, but *IF* the web version is correct, it would be an offence to shoot a deer with shot larger than AAA. Can't see it being relevant to me, but it might be to someone.

 

Any thoughts?

Am I missing something?

 

Edit: Charlie T posted while I was writing this. Question still stands though.

Edited April 3, 2011 by HW682

[CharlieT]

HW682

 

Although now law I suspect that originally it was an error.

 

The subject of shotguns did not appear in the Deer Act until the 1991 act and if you have a look at the wildlife and countryside act 1981, which came before the deer act, it states for humane dispatch AAA of larger whereas for shooting only AAA may be used. I guess the deer act copied the relevant bits together with their errors from the WC act and hey presto the deer act ends up with only AAA may be used.

 

Just my guess from one anorak to another.

 

Charlie

[seeker]

While the Act specifies the minimum weight for slug it seems to say nothing on the AAA load .. either load weight or number of shot, except possibly that there should be more than 1 ?!

Anoraks a re good for rainy days!

Edited April 3, 2011 by seeker

[wildfowler.250]

Thanks for the replies! The whole thing is giving me a bit of a headache! I'm slightly lost as to why people don't use this aspect of the law to enable you to shoot deer more often? I would think it would be fairly easy to say that deer do damage on a daily basis? How would you prove that say gas guns for scaring the deer had or hadn't been used? And that shooting them wasn't the only other realistic option? Or do you not need to prove the use of scaring methods

 

I'm going below the parapet now! I'm quite happy using my cebterfires

 

[CharlieT]

Thanks for the replies! The whole thing is giving me a bit of a headache! I'm slightly lost as to why people don't use this aspect of the law to enable you to shoot deer more often? I would think it would be fairly easy to say that deer do damage on a daily basis? How would you prove that say gas guns for scaring the deer had or hadn't been used? And that shooting them wasn't the only other realistic option? Or do you not need to prove the use of scaring methods

 

I'm going below the parapet now! I'm quite happy using my cebterfires

 

 

But you don't need to prove any form of deterrent has been tried. Deer eat mowing grass grab shotgun....shoot, job done.

 

However, as has previously been said first you've got to get close enough and secondly why do you need to shoot deer more often. Far easier to use a rifle and guarantee that you will humanely kill your quarry.

 

The deer act when changed in 1991 prohibited the use of shotguns for taking deer. I remember the old deer drives and moping up all the wounded deer for days after, not something we need to go back to. As I said previously good deer rifles are two a penny so why would anyone wish to use a scatter gun.

 

The Shotgun exemption was put into the act so that crofters and the like who did not own a rifle could, if necessary, control marauding deer not to give hobby shooters a way to circumvent the law. Unlawful use of this exemption will only bring it into disrepute and risk this sometimes useful exemption from being withdrawn.

[al4x]

I've shot a fair few in the past in very thick cover and it works well. But you drive them with plenty of people and it was muntjac. What I can say is AAA's knock them down very humanely

[Catweazle]

I've shot a fair few in the past in very thick cover and it works well. But you drive them with plenty of people and it was muntjac. What I can say is AAA's knock them down very humanely

 

That's good to know.

[wildfowler.250]

But you don't need to prove any form of deterrent has been tried. Deer eat mowing grass grab shotgun....shoot, job done.

 

However, as has previously been said first you've got to get close enough and secondly why do you need to shoot deer more often. Far easier to use a rifle and guarantee that you will humanely kill your quarry.

 

The deer act when changed in 1991 prohibited the use of shotguns for taking deer. I remember the old deer drives and moping up all the wounded deer for days after, not something we need to go back to. As I said previously good deer rifles are two a penny so why would anyone wish to use a scatter gun.

 

The Shotgun exemption was put into the act so that crofters and the like who did not own a rifle could, if necessary, control marauding deer not to give hobby shooters a way to circumvent the law. Unlawful use of this exemption will only bring it into disrepute and risk this sometimes useful exemption from being withdrawn.

 

Thanks for that I'm not old enough to have experienced a deer drive :yp:

 

 

ps I would have thought AAA's would knock most things over at sensible ranges

[kent]

I think that there's also a closed shop mentality among stalkers and the BDS, and they don't want anyone else getting a piece of their action. This is why we lost bow hunting.

 

A lot of people, myself included, would like to be able to take the odd deer without having to go to the pallaver and expense of getting a centre fire rifle. Especially with smaller deer like muntjac, at close range, it's no more cruel than shooting a fox.

 

you wouldn't say that if you found them wounded with maggots on their wound couch like i have. The BDS carried out tests using shotguns on Roe carcasses and it was not ver encouraging, especially when in winter coat. Comparing a Roe to a fox is ridiculous its like comparing a Rat and a Hare

[mowdy]

I use solid slug when i shoot deer with my shotgun but my .308 is my first choice for shooting deer though.

 

bob

[sitsinhedges]

you wouldn't say that if you found them wounded with maggots on their wound couch like i have. The BDS carried out tests using shotguns on Roe carcasses and it was not ver encouraging, especially when in winter coat. Comparing a Roe to a fox is ridiculous its like comparing a Rat and a Hare

 

Not if you use suitable ammunition at a suitable range.

[HW682]

HW682

 

Although now law I suspect that originally it was an error.

 

The subject of shotguns did not appear in the Deer Act until the 1991 act and if you have a look at the wildlife and countryside act 1981, which came before the deer act......Charlie

Charlie, thanks for that info.

 

While the Act specifies the minimum weight for slug it seems to say nothing on the AAA load...

 

Interesting point Seeker. They go to the trouble of specifying shot size, but not the load.

I suppose at the end of the day all legislation is drawn up by humans and so prone to mistakes.

[wildfowler.250]

I use solid slug when i shoot deer with my shotgun but my .308 is my first choice for shooting deer though.

 

bob

 

 

How hard/easy is it to get shot gun slugs for deer? I'm guessing it has to be under vermin and not for sporting use! Would land which is unsuitable for a rifle be deemend a reasonable excuse? I would have assumed you still need a backstop for a slug though?

[Dekers]

(a)he had reasonable grounds for believing that deer of the same species were causing, or had caused, damage to crops, vegetables, fruit, growing timber or any other form of property on the land;.

 

If you cannot make that part work for you then you need to take up knitting!

[njc110381]

The real problem is range, could you ever really hope to get that close to a deer?. If you can it would only be with muntys because round here the bigger deer are far too elusive.

 

 

I've actually had a Roe Doe sniff the end of the barrel of my shotgun before taking off at speed because she worked out what I was. On another occasion I got so close to a Roe Buck we both looked up at the same time and nearly headbutted each other. Now I grant you I get out a lot and that has only happened twice but I have got within 20 yards of Deer on many occasions. If you know their habits and trails you can literally lie up and wait for them to walk right into you in the right conditions.

 

As a general sporting thing I don't think shotguns are a good choice for Deer. In some situations though they work. I'm not talking Deer drives and taking pot shots. I'm talking about using your skills to get within a sensible range to blast them in the head/neck area when they have no idea you are there. Believe me, as someone who has done it nothing is more humane. There is just as much chance of pulling a 100 yard rifle shot as there is messing up a shotgun blast at close range. With large pellets the damage is huge and I've never failed to drop a Deer quickly in this way.

 

There's nothing more sad than rifle shooting a Deer, skinning it and having pellets drop on the floor as the skin peels away. I've had that happen a number of times and I find it quite upsetting. For any newbies reading this - buy a rifle.

[CharlieT]

How hard/easy is it to get shot gun slugs for deer? I'm guessing it has to be under vermin and not for sporting use! Would land which is unsuitable for a rifle be deemend a reasonable excuse? I would have assumed you still need a backstop for a slug though?

 

 

As with all things firearms you will get them if you can demonstrate a need such as being a farmer/grower or a deer manager and their use will probably limited to use under the deer act.

 

They are indeed lethal things and given the choice of standing in front of a bullet or a slug I would choose the bullet any day. Yes a good backstop is a must.