BlaserF3 Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 If all you AA and A shots entered birds only, but the extra money you pay to gamble could be given to a "Trustee" of you choice. After the shoot the said money could be divided more fairly, than it is now amongst those who contributed it. It's always been a "money" game and those with the deepest pockets, ability included, are somewhere near the top. That's one reason they don't like a strawbale shooter to beat them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian E Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 Scrap Birds only lower the entry cost and share the prize money equally Sorry hang on there goes another flying pig.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 Ed - I'm afraid they haven't!! That is a shame. I haven't entered a CPSA competition in some years, but I had hoped that this sort of thing had been curtailed. I saw more of it at re-entry shoots, where scorers were young kids, or the squad scored themselves. As Blaser F3 has said - very little problems, if any, at DTL, but the odd one at skeet - almost exclusively at Sporting, where shooting did not take place where there were many observers. At the end of the day, they might have got a few quid or a pot, but they must know they were cheating themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaserF3 Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 The whole classification structure needs changing, until then nothing will change. This http://www.ga-sportingclays.org/lewissystem.pdf could be one way of doing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdSolomons Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 The Lewis class option Is ok for guys at the top, but is something of a lottery for the class shooter.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaserF3 Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 The Lewis class option Is ok for guys at the top, but is something of a lottery for the class shooter.... You are probably correct, but it stops sandbagging instantly does it not. It must make the competition fairer for everyone in the long run eventually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdSolomons Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 I think for those who are determined nothing will! You could wait till last entries, see what number you were, work out the 5 pay zones and hit a score to match accordingly. All I can see it being like is a raffle funded by the prize money. Removes the element of competition in a way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaserF3 Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 Ed, do you personally know a shooter or shooters who cheats? And why don't the CPSA ban them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilR Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 I used to have a bit of insider knowledge at the CPSA, it seems that they used to receive, and probably still do, phone calls after a shoot making allegations about certain individuals cheating. When the usually anonymous caller was asked to put the complaint in writing so that it could be dealt with formally it would suddenly go quiet and certainly no written complaint would appear to back up the phone call. I don't think the CPSA can go chasing around on the basis of a telephone call that someone was cheating, there has to be hard evidence. It is all very well wittering on in the clubhouse about so and so doing this that or the other, but unless someone is prepared to put their head above the parapet and complain properly nothing is ever going to be done to eradicate it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdSolomons Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 The cpsa have caught them red handed and refuse to prosecute incase they get sued! What kind of message does that send out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaserF3 Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 The cpsa have caught them red handed and refuse to prosecute incase they get sued! What kind of message does that send out! What could the cheaters sue them for...defamation of character or something similar? It's a pity that the CPSA is still being run buy a committee with no backbone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 In a criminal case, guilt has to be proven beyond reasonable doubt. With Civil cases - slander, libel, the onus is on the person making the allegation to prove that it is true. It is one thing knowing someone is cheating, quite another proving it. I suspect that people who speak up at the time, would melt in to the background if it meant appearing in court. If you accuse someone of cheating, be sure you have witnesses, who will genuinely back you. I have confronted the odd cheat many years ago - trust me - no-one thanks you for it. I have also witnessed cheating and very sharp practice by some well known names. Entering re-entry shoots with half a dozen cards. Shooting stands, then moving on to cards 2,3 4 etc. before moving to the next stand. A few practices, then shoot on one of your better cards. I have actually stood there whilst someone sorted out which card they wanted to shoot next. No re-entry until the first round had been completed would eliminate that wheeze, but I have also seen shooters who tear up their card after a poor stand and start again - I think 7 or 8 was the most I saw. Then tell me that the best shooter always wins. :lol: Shooters tearing up cards at CPSA shoots, so their average is not affected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilR Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 I know very well of one case where an individual lied about his age to qualify for an international team, it was discovered whilst he was competing abroad and the team was withdrawn from the event causing the two other two members to lose out on a team medal. A disciplinary hearing was held and he was banned for two years and a proviso was made that he had to refund the £1250 that had been spent on sending him to the two overseas events. Had he not refunded the money the ban would have continued until such time as he did so. Ed, not knowing the facts of the case to which you refer it would seem from a quick glance at their disciplinary code of conduct the worst case scenario would be expulsion from the association. If someone had been caught cheating and there was evidence to prove this then I'm sure some disciplinary action would have been taken against them, in accordance within the guidelines set out in the code of conduct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdSolomons Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 (edited) Card altered, ref aware... Nothing done! Not the first and sadly won't be the last! I don't lose any sleep over it now- learnt it's a sport not worth getting upset over a long time back! Edited January 6, 2012 by EdSolomons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil moss Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 Just wondered how this involves MCSC ???, think a new thread is needed, agree !!!!!! Edthanks for the pm, will contact ya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaserF3 Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 phil, most of the cheating that I saw was actually at Worsley. Not many people want to become involved with the subject of cheating shooters on here it seems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil moss Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 ok, obviously before my employment, so when, who & where was this actually done If i know these things then im made aware for any future events :angry: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaserF3 Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 ok, obviously before my employment, so when, who & where was this actually done If i know these things then im made aware for any future events :angry: It was a few years ago now maybe seven or eight I cannot give you dates or names as I do not know them personally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil moss Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 Fine so it wasnt at the last selection shoot held there , fine, nice to see that you dont hold any grudges.... :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emmsy Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southrop Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 I knew an Avon and Somerset shooter some while back leap from C class to AA in a season. In my nievity I used to ask him what his secret was was? It turned out that that he routinely doctored his score after every shoot! He was ultimately found out after a selection shoot at wylye and was banned by cpsa for 5 years. Needless to say he has disappeared from the circuit now. Some of you may remember? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 Getting back to the original point of the post.I hope Manchester Clays does improve. I will take soundings later this year and see whether it is worth another visit - bearing in mind my "never, ever etc.". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acid House Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 After reading all this thread I'm afraid to say not much of it makes sence to me. I shoot for enjoyment only and dont enter competitions so Worsley suits me just fine. I have always found the staff nothing but polite and accommodating and even had groundsmen running round the place looking for my lost membership card that I had left in a machine and that was without asking. I can't remember the last time I took a score card round with me as they don't have a box for counting enjoyment, just boxes for how many hit. I don't want to know the managers name or the trap setters or the owners. Nor do I need to know who owns the land or what toothpaste the cook uses. All I can say is the ground does what I want it to do at a good price. If my local banana shop didn't give me an apple whenever I demanded one then I would go to an apple shop and wouldn't feel the need to slag the banana shop off for not supplying apples. Why is it then that so many return to worsley when you know they don't supply what you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guerinirocks Posted January 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 After reading all this thread I'm afraid to say not much of it makes sence to me. I shoot for enjoyment only and dont enter competitions so Worsley suits me just fine. Hear Hear Acid House. Well said. All shooters from those dressed as Borat and those head to toe in Tweed whether competing or laughing have a place and all should be served. As a note I went to Worsley today to be rudely treated, interupted by instructors and loads of no birds. And you wont believe it, five changed stands. Some with dramatic changes which were very welcome. A pleasant chat with an instructor on the practise stands (he says he has never taken a beginner or stag on the main layout). And shock of horrors!!!! Shot 130 birds including 100 on the card and I had three no birds. My partners had two and four respectively. And the staff said "Good Morning how are you". Maybe everywhere needs a clean slate sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 Acid House - many people, including myself, have returned because it is convenient. The drift of your argument appears to be for disgruntled shooters to take their trade elsewhere. I have done that very thing, but I seem to recall - in this thread - that Manchester Clay Club want people to return. They do not appear to share your view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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