Sport or slaughter ?

[Harnser]

Having been involved in all field sports and shooting sports over the past 50 years I have been involved with several small game shooting syndicates . You all know the type of shoot I am talking about ,walk one ,stand one with a group of good old boys out for a good day out and a walk around . Lunch in the barn with all the wonderfull banter and micky taking . Everybody going home with a brace or two of birds for the pot .

 

Unless you have experianced this type of shooting you may find it hard to understand what I am trying to put forward . These days out with a bunch of mates is as good as it can get ,watching the dogs work the cover and the hedgerows and the anticipation of a bird breaking out giving a gun the chance for a nice bird . The feeling of satisfaction driving home with a brace of birds in the back of the truck for the pot and looking forward to the next shoot .

 

Over the past few years I noticed the amount of the big shoots going commercial ,several hundred pounds a day per gun and hundreds of birds shot on the day . One shoot that I know of puts down 45.000 birds per year ,to be shot by guns paying a fortune to shoot on a daily basis . One of my friends beats on one of these shoots and recons it is absolute slaughter . They will shoot all birds over the guns ,flappers as well as good flyers . Over the past 3 years two keepers have resignd because of the way the shoot has been run and the total disregard by the guns over the way the birds are shot . Numbers are the big thing on some of these shoots and not quality .

 

This type of shoot is real ammunition for the antis who have over the years been protesting at some the shooting estates . Are we our own enemies to carry on shooting massive bags and rearing massive amounts of birds ? I suppose the game rearers and the big shoots taking in the money will say no . I think it is wrong .What do you think ?

 

Harnser .

Edited October 15, 2012 by Harnser

[Highbird70]

Having been involved in all field sports and shooting sports over the past 50 years I have been involved with several small game shooting syndicates . You all know the type of shoot I am talking about ,walk one ,stand one with a group of good old boys out for a good day out and a walk around . Lunch in the barn with all the wonderfull banter and micky taking . Everybody going home with a brace or two of birds for the pot .

 

Unless you have experianced this type of shooting you may find it hard to understand what I am trying to put forward . These days out with a bunch of mates is as good as it can get ,watching the dogs work the cover and the hedgerows and the anticipation of a bird breaking out giving a gun the chance for a nice bird . The feeling of satisfaction driving home with a brace of birds in the back of the truck for the pot and looking forward to the next shoot .

 

Over the past few years I noticed the amount of the big shoots going commercial ,several hundred pounds a day per gun and hundreds of birds shot on the day . On shoot that I know of puts down 45.000 birds per year ,to be shot by guns paying a fortune to shoot on a daily basis . On of my friends beats on one of these shoots and recons it is absolute slaughter . They will shoot all birds over the guns ,flappers as well as good flyers . Over the past 3 years two keepers have resignd because of the way the shoot has been run and the total disregard by the guns over the way the birds are shot . Numbers are the big thing on some of these shoots and not quality .

 

This type of shoot is real ammunition for the antis who have over the years been protesting at some the shooting estates . Are we our own enemies to carry on shooting massive bags and rearing massive amounts of birds ? I suppose the game rearers and the big shoots taking in the money will say no . I think it is wrong .What do you think ?

 

Harnser .

 

I completely agree with you, hence I very rarely go on a driven shoot, like rough shooting and shooting over pointers...thats proper sporting shoot, then again I see the business side of it, with lots of good gamekeepers earning a legitimate wage, what really bothers me, its that some shoot throw away the game or they bury it and thats just wrong.

[al4x]

I think those estates are in the very minority Harnser, we run a farm syndicate much like your day and I beat on a shoot that does 25 or so days probably averaging 200 a day and that is far from slaughter, no one likes it if the birds don't fly well. Local larger shoots again have very keen game shooters who don't shoot everything even when double gunned the quality is what it is all about. With bag size look at it compared to pigeon shooting most would call it a bad day if they shot what each gun does on a 200 bird driven day, so really I see no difference between people surrounded by a heap of pigeons.

 

I can also add I've seen worse things on small syndicates than large shoots, guns taking low birds in particular

Edited October 15, 2012 by al4x

[walshie]

I agree. Firstly it is putting the sport out fo the reach of the average shooter. I for one couldn't afford several hundred pounds for a day's shooting and even if I could, I wouldn't out of principle.

This "guaranteed big bag" mentality is surely not even sport as there is hardly any skill involved.

Maybe they should just shoot the birds while they are still in the pens to boost the bags, save time and make even more money?

[Harnser]

I think those estates are in the very minority Harnser, we run a farm syndicate much like your day and I beat on a shoot that does 25 or so days probably averaging 200 a day and that is far from slaughter, no one likes it if the birds don't fly well. Local larger shoots again have very keen game shooters who don't shoot everything even when double gunned the quality is what it is all about. With bag size look at it compared to pigeon shooting most would call it a bad day if they shot what each gun does on a 200 bird driven day, so really I see no difference between people surrounded by a heap of pigeons.

 

I can also add I've seen worse things on small syndicates than large shoots, guns taking low birds in particular

Minority or not it can still sound the death nell for shooting . Large bags of pigeons are worked for by the shooter ,and are not reared invast numbers each year to be shot by uncaring guns .

 

Harnser .

[al4x]

Do they really exist though Harnser, yes pound notes talk and i can see the odd bad gun turning up and taking low birds but not many. We see a fair few of the serious game shooters who are out numerous times a week shooting all round the place on large days and they all pick their birds. I'm yet to see a keeper strive to present low birds and the ones who put down a lot generally have a lot of ground to go at. That being some of the difference when you have say 5000 acres with half of that woodland you can certainly release a lot and shoot a lot of days. One things fairly certain you have to be fairly passionate about the sport to spend the kind of money some do on it. We're lucky we don't have the banker boys turn up and its pretty much all old money so pretty traditional, one local one that was going down that route went bust in about its third season as the demand presumably isn't there at the moment. Certainly there are aspects of scale that are a concern but I'd still say I've seen worse things on the amateur small scale shoots than the larger ones.

[Kes]

I agree with you Harnser - its just live clay shooting for many. I used to shoot ducks on a commercial but friendly shoot and if you are paying the same as everyone else, there is a lot of pressure to 'get your moneys worth'. I would love to say I have only taken high birds or long or quick shots but I do now.

Shooting is far too expensive for the majority and when you add the fuel, carts etc its a small fortune. I too prefer the small friendly walk round with friends- knowing the birds will be there for the nexxt time and maybe offer a special shot.

[CharlieT]

I am perhaps fortunate that because the topography of North Devon and Exmoor lends itself to "high bird" shoots. All the shoots I know specialise in producing high birds and therefore tend to attract shots who enjoy the challenge. Some of the larger shoots put down in excess of 100,000 birds and shoot 5 days a week offering up to 500 or more bird days.

 

However, every bird is sporting and every keeper and shoot captain known to me will select testing drives to suit the guns ability. Poor birds are credit to no one. I am of the opinion that not only should a shoot strive to produce testing birds and to reprimand guns who shoot poor birds but that guns themselves must show restraint and only take on challenging birds, at the end of the day the decision to pull the trigger rests with the gun.

 

Also remember that although a 500 bird day may sound an awful lot of birds it is in fact 8 birds per gun per drive, hardly slaughter and I'm sure when shooting that sort of number of testing birds any gun will remember every bird shot.

 

Fun, banter and camaraderie exists in all types of shoot, it matters not a jot if the gun arrives on his bike for his 10 bird day or by helicopter or a 750 bird day. Nothing beats a days shooting with like minded people, be that a 10 or 500 bird day.

 

If such a thing as you describe does exist then it shame on the shoot and the guns, because they are all missing out on what shooting is all about.

[rimfire4969]

Some good and bad points here.

 

Driven game shooting is nothing like live clay shooting, I do both to some degree, waiting for a bird to appear is extremely exciting and that I don't get from clays. You also have no idea how the bird will react when it shows up or where it will be from only a rough direction. I am a member of a small walk one stand one syndicate and I love it, some good sport and good company. We might get a mixed bag of 30 birds between 7 or 8 of us, and the dogs have great day too.

 

I buy a few 100 bird days a season which do cost a few quid, but the quality of the birds is far better than our small days, we also get a good feed a load of beaters and a brace if we like. Normally 8 of us go on these days and a 100 birds between us is only about 13 each during a day so you really can pick your birds.

 

I do know a few very big shoots that release 1000's of birds and they do a few 400 bird days for 8 to 10 guns that is 40 birds each, I still don't think that is slaughter and if you pick your birds very sporting.

 

I have only ever heard the rubbish about throwing away or burying birds on topics like this. It makes absolutely no sense, money is tight for all shoots so throwing away birds means throwing money away which would be paid for any birds sold and collected by a game dealer.

[paddywack12]

I agree with Harnser. I prefer the small walk round rough shooting days a few mates good dogs and happy if you get double figures.

For a formal days driven shooting 80-100 birds is more than adequate.

I use to beat on a commercial shoot that offered 200 - 250 bird days but stopped going when blackbirds and woodpeckers were becoming part of the bag and we had to wear hi viz vests and safety glasses.

The people shooting here had absolutely no idea of sport and it was slaughter.

[davecooper1]

Have to agree with most off Harners comments, its all about money these days.

 

I belong to a small diy shoot, walk one stand one, but can honestly say, there are no easy birds on our shoot, they are all high quality birds, a few members off pw can vouch for me, having shot there as my guest.

[subsonicnat]

When talking about high bird counts on shoots, I do wonder if the Guys who say they wouldn`t do, REALLY WOULD if they had the money ?. People who can afford it are like my mate who works for himself so a few days were had by him, and good luck to him I say:

I did get a few days bought for me by my son, Not big bags but moderate: but when you consider I have been on a BIG shoot, You do only get a few birds for yourself, you do not shoot them all, so if you have 15 birds come your way, you do not feel as though you are slaughtering them, you take the very good birds only . And wo-betide the bloke who makes a mess of one, it will be in his bag!!..

I have been on small shoots who only shot 7 days and 15 per day with 30 shooters, it does not add up the figures does it lol.

Cost of Keepers wages and FEED have gone through the roof over the last few years so it will be the man who can afford it.

I do not feel hard done to and lets face it, if you are not a lazy person you can get a beaters day and get as near to big shoot day, by having a beaters day, besides which you meet very nice people, pickers up etc.. so lets not start kicking our own backsides, hunting did that, it gets you no where: Well said Al4x. Bang on:

Well thats just my opinion, like everybody else`s:

[demonwolf444]

First shoot of the season we shot Two, yes two pheasants. one cock and one hen. I have to say for all the "banter" it was one of the best days out ive had in a long time. A bad days shooting beats a good days working, was mentioned a few times and its still true today.

[davecooper1]

Your bang on with the price on feed, gone through the roof, and half way to the moon, it will be even more, after this years harvest.

[hillmouse]

He who is without sin cast the first stone.

 

With all the anti sentiments on the outside of our sport it is a poor show when those inside it start on each other.

 

I love a traditional walked up day, especially with a variety of game in the bag and a few good friends enjoying the banter and appreciating the day.

 

I also enjoy a full formal driven day of sporting birds and have spent over 30 years providing both types of day.

 

It makes little difference to the bird if it dies alone or as part of a bag of hundreds of others.

 

The main point is was it given a sporting chance. Is it any more or less wrong to shoot a weak bird walked up, one too close or perhaps more importantly, too far away than to shoot a low bird on a driven day? Not really, all are unsporting shots and not the mark of a true sportsman.

 

Enjoy your chosen sport as your opinion and means allow, but please do not decry large bags or driven days purely on the subject of numbers or perceptions about those participating.

 

Any shoot where the beaters need hi-viz and safety specs is clearly not a sporting one, let alone the illegal actions of the ill informed Guns.

That is a matter we should all object to and it has nothing to do with the scale, however I cannot argue this sort of behaviour would more likely be found when it is a commercial shoot run not to provide sport but to generate and income by any means. thankfully this sort of place soon goes bust.

[ColinF]

He who is without sin cast the first stone.

 

With all the anti sentiments on the outside of our sport it is a poor show when those inside it start on each other.

 

I love a traditional walked up day, especially with a variety of game in the bag and a few good friends enjoying the banter and appreciating the day.

 

I also enjoy a full formal driven day of sporting birds and have spent over 30 years providing both types of day.

 

It makes little difference to the bird if it dies alone or as part of a bag of hundreds of others.

 

The main point is was it given a sporting chance. Is it any more or less wrong to shoot a weak bird walked up, one too close or perhaps more importantly, too far away than to shoot a low bird on a driven day? Not really, all are unsporting shots and not the mark of a true sportsman.

 

Enjoy your chosen sport as your opinion and means allow, but please do not decry large bags or driven days purely on the subject of numbers or perceptions about those participating.

 

Any shoot where the beaters need hi-viz and safety specs is clearly not a sporting one, let alone the illegal actions of the ill informed Guns.

That is a matter we should all object to and it has nothing to do with the scale, however I cannot argue this sort of behaviour would more likely be found when it is a commercial shoot run not to provide sport but to generate and income by any means. thankfully this sort of place soon goes bust.

 

I completely agree with you Hillmouse.

 

I am lucky enough to get to shoot on some well known commercial shoots around the country, and I have never witnessed anything like the shoots described above. To be succesful, a commercial shoot relies on repeat business each season, and the only way to develop this is to provide sporting birds to suit the ability of the guns on each day. I haven't shot with anyone on these days that would even raise their gun to any low or unsporting birds. After all, if you are paying for a day on a good shoot, why would you fill the bag with unsporting birds? Most people pick the best birds that they feel comfortable with, these are not the lowest, and often not the highest either.

 

Although, I get to shoot on some very smart estates, I also belong to a small farm shoot and enjoy all types of shooting. To be honest, I am just as happy roost shooting pigeons in February as I am shooting driven pheasant.

 

Unfortunately, the most unsporting shooting I have seen was on a walk one/stand one shoot, where everything that flew was shot regardless of whether it was sporting or not. I think this was because the guns were not very experienced, and there weren't that many birds around to choose from. Suffice to say, I wasn't a member there for long. I know that this isn't the norm, but I guess there is good and bad in everything.

[Dekers]

This was always going to be interesting from the start.....

 

Sport or Slaughter, so just where do you draw the line between the two?

 

I am no fan of Any shoot, they are all artificial, but I have no problem with those who do have an interest.

 

Like it or not they promote shooting and employ people, both front of house and behind the scenes in all sorts of industries.

 

Personally I find a clay shoot probably a better shooting experience.

 

I am involved with one Very major shoot and one small shoot though, in honesty it's nothing to do with the shooting, it's to do with the company, name dropping, fun and the banter...and of course, basic it may often be, but those lunches are memorable!

 

[anser2]

I would agree with Harnser that putting down thousands of birds and big bag days over 100 for a team of 8 guns is going over the top. Such big bags is in no way compariable to pigeon shooting , which is crop protection first and sport second. The ethics of rearing birds to shoot is on shaky ground these days and huge bags are seen in a dim light by the majority of the public. Though most of the public are quite happy to accept bagging a few birds for the pot.

 

There is also the environmental impact of releasing huge numbers of birds. They compete with native birds for food (maybe not so much during the season , but many shoots stop feeding once the season is over ) and can have serious impact on native insects. On one farm where I do survey work they only recently started to release about 2,000 birds on just 250 acres. Already several species of grasshoppers have dissapeared and butterfly\moth numbers have gone into serious decline.

 

 

I used to do some driven game shooting and get a number of invitations every winter, which I decline as I no longer enjoy sitting on a peg while someone drives the pheasants over me. It get a bit like clay pigeon shooting after a while and is not for me , but if some enjoy it then good luck to them as long as it is done responsibly. When sitting on a peg I always felt like wandering off down a hedgerow with the dog and hunting a bird or two up. At least i worked for the birds. Indeed that is how I shoot all my pheasants these days. I have a great farm which can hold hundreds of pheasants and partridges. Its great fun to have a walk round with a friend , hunt the dogs , take a few shots and be prepared to stop when we have enough birds ( we usualy limit ourselves to 6 birds each ). Its the dog work that gives me the most pleasure.

[Scully]

I shoot and beat on shoots from rough shoots to small stand one,beat one,to big commercial 450/500 bag days,and can say from experience that the big commercial shoots don't have the monopoly on what is described as 'unsporting' behaviour.It isn't something which is inherent to big shoots,but more down to individuals,and is usually pointed out in no uncertain terms to those individuals concerned....gamekeepers don't take prisoners in my experience.I have yet to see any commercial shoots burying shot game.

To be honest I don't give a fig what the anti's think about big commercial shoots,or any type of shoots for that matter.They aren't bothered whether the shots we take are 'sporting' or not,it's the fact that many consider it 'sport' which they object to.Killing for fun,leisure or enjoyment,that's what they want us to justify.

I get more enjoyment from the small rough,beat one,stand one shoots I'm involved in than the bigger shoots,because the crack is better with close mates,but if any birds are put down with the intent to shoot them,then it's canned hunting and is just as much an anti target as any other type of shooting.

[eyeglass]

Harnser’s post raises suspicion. There is no need to provoke game shooters unless of course you want to set a hare running so that the anti’s who watch this site can use it as evidence.

 

I question the motive of Harnser’s post. If he is genuine then he lacks judgement and if he is a troll then he may have to try harder to get anyone on this thread to compromise themselves.

 

I would say to those who come onto this post to be very careful and aware of who might be reading it and why.

[ColinF]

I would agree with Harnser that putting down thousands of birds and big bag days over 100 for a team of 8 guns is going over the top. Such big bags is in no way compariable to pigeon shooting , which is crop protection first and sport second. The ethics of rearing birds to shoot is on shaky ground these days and huge bags are seen in a dim light by the majority of the public. Though most of the public are quite happy to accept bagging a few birds for the pot.

 

There is also the environmental impact of releasing huge numbers of birds. They compete with native birds for food (maybe not so much during the season , but many shoots stop feeding once the season is over ) and can have serious impact on native insects. On one farm where I do survey work they only recently started to release about 2,000 birds on just 250 acres. Already several species of grasshoppers have dissapeared and butterfly\moth numbers have gone into serious decline.

 

 

I used to do some driven game shooting and get a number of invitations every winter, which I decline as I no longer enjoy sitting on a peg while someone drives the pheasants over me. It get a bit like clay pigeon shooting after a while and is not for me , but if some enjoy it then good luck to them as long as it is done responsibly. When sitting on a peg I always felt like wandering off down a hedgerow with the dog and hunting a bird or two up. At least i worked for the birds. Indeed that is how I shoot all my pheasants these days. I have a great farm which can hold hundreds of pheasants and partridges. Its great fun to have a walk round with a friend , hunt the dogs , take a few shots and be prepared to stop when we have enough birds ( we usualy limit ourselves to 6 birds each ). Its the dog work that gives me the most pleasure.

 

I don't think that you can call a 100 birds a big bag day, that's only 12-13 birds per gun. Most pigeon shooters would class 12-13 birds as a poor day. I agree that pigeon shooting is pest control, but almost all the pigeon shooters I know do it for the sport it provides.

 

I also don't think that the rearing of game birds is "on shaky ground", and I am not sure where your facts regarding public opinion have come from?

 

It's good that you enjoy your walked up shooting and working your dogs, but why make negative comments about other forms of the sport to justify your own? Shooting is under enough pressure at the moment.

 

By the way, where do you think your "hundreds of pheasants and partridges" have come from? A couple more breeding seasons like the one that has just passed, where most estates are reporting very few or no pheasant broods, and there wont be any wild birds without releasing. I have heard that true wild bird shoots should only shoot cock birds this year, to preserve breeding stocks.

[Cranfield]

Despite 40 odd years of attending driven game shoots as a gun, or as a beater, I have never witnessed the sort of game shooting that Harnser refers to.

Nor have I heard authoritative first hand reports of anything like it.

If it exists, it must be such a rare occurrence as to be inconsequential.

I have seen some irrersponsible behaviour on a driven day and I have seen similar on the foreshore, on the moor and from a hide.

 

To condemn a days shooting when 300 especially reared birds are shot, (birds that would not even exist otherwise) and yet praise a 300 shot pigeon day, is some sort of hypocrisy.

If you don't like, or want to shoot reared driven game birds, then don't.

 

Be careful what restrictions you invite into the sport of shooting live quarry, you may not like what you end up with.

[al4x]

the main issue is ignorance and when that ignorance and in effect class bias exists within our sport there are big issues. Knowing Harnser is one for a decent wind up and discussion you never know how serious this is, bearing in mind you have to be involved to see what actually happens its easy for some to listen to the anti propaganda. I'm glad not many have experienced the bad side of it which is akin to my experience of game shooting. Really as Cranfield says a 300 bird day is not slaughter when it is spread over 8-10 guns and over 6-8 drives its not a lot per person. Its nice to know all keepers seem to be pretty anti poor and low shooting as thats not what it is about at all, and I can safely say I enjoy beating on larger shoots as much for the social side as anything else. One things for sure an awful lot of us still have trouble sleeping the night before a driven day its really something pretty special.

[Scully]

One things for sure an awful lot of us still have trouble sleeping the night before a driven day its really something pretty special.

Yes,it is something special,regardless of scale.

[Harnser]

the main issue is ignorance and when that ignorance and in effect class bias exists within our sport there are big issues. Knowing Harnser is one for a decent wind up and discussion you never know how serious this is, bearing in mind you have to be involved to see what actually happens its easy for some to listen to the anti propaganda. I'm glad not many have experienced the bad side of it which is akin to my experience of game shooting. Really as Cranfield says a 300 bird day is not slaughter when it is spread over 8-10 guns and over 6-8 drives its not a lot per person. Its nice to know all keepers seem to be pretty anti poor and low shooting as thats not what it is about at all, and I can safely say I enjoy beating on larger shoots as much for the social side as anything else. One things for sure an awful lot of us still have trouble sleeping the night before a driven day its really something pretty special.

 

I can assure you that this is not meant to be a wind up thread . Over the years I have seen some pretty bad and selfish behavior on some shoots . Every body is a game keeper and could do better . The stupid bickering that goes on ," that drive should have been started from the other side" "that gun has got the best peg and carnt shoot for toffee ".

I am more concernd about the image that we as shooters portray to the uninformed . How can we justify to the uninformed general public that the mass rearing of game birds purely for shooting for cash is the way to go .

Since being a member of this forum I have allways tried to post interesting and informative post to get members thinking more about what shooting is really about . I think that I have managed to enlighten some new shooters as to what actually goes on in the country side and how to treat game and vermin with a certain amount of respect .

It really is our responcibility as experianced shooters to see that the sport is carried on and that the sport will be available for our granchildren . In my humble opinion mass rearing and slaughter of game birds is not the way to keep the future of shooting available for our granchildren . Ok ,I hold my hands up for a couple of wind ups in the past ,but nothing to the deprement of shooting . I am still suffering from the bunker thread ,by monthly trips to london to see the suits .

 

Harnser .