Rules on storage & access to cartridges....

[varminter pb]

Okay, I understand that I can authorise my wife to collect my cartridges so long as she has written authorisation AND my SGC. The question I have is she's visiting my sister in laws and have arranged for a bulk buy of cartridges for me & my shooting buddy. IF she can't get them all into the car, then she'll either hav to leave the remainder at the shop until my brother & I meet up in May (in which I'll hav to post my cert and authority to him) so he can pick up the remainder. Or she does two trips but leaves the remainder at my brothers? From reading the net & Thames Valley advice, there is no mention of it being illegal to be in possession of cartridges, only shotguns themselves.

 

Any advice / comments would be appreciated as the wife goes up there on Saturday.

[TaxiDriver]

From my understanding,

You need to be a certificate holder to purchase cartridges, So, it doesnt seem right that you can lend your certificate to your wife to get her to buy carts on your behalf.

Where did you get the idea you can give her 'authority' to use your certificate to buy/collect carts on your behalf (Im NOT saying it's right or wrong)

[eddoakley]

From my understanding,

You need to be a certificate holder to purchase cartridges, So, it doesnt seem right that you can lend your certificate to your wife to get her to buy carts on your behalf.

Where did you get the idea you can give her 'authority' to use your certificate to buy/collect carts on your behalf (Im NOT saying it's right or wrong)

new one on me too.

Always thought you had to collect cartridges and produce YOUR certificate. never known anyone being able to authorise someone else.

As for leaving them with sil then there is no offence as it isnt illegal to posses cartridges without a certificate.

Edd

[Big Mat]

It is perfectly legal to send someone to get your cartridges for you, i can't remember where in the laws in states it but you just write a letter saying you give permission for so and so to purchase them and they take your certificate.

 

Comes from servants buying the master of the house cartridges for the weekends shoot i believe back in the day.

[Oli]

Comes from servants buying the master of the house cartridges for the weekends shoot i believe back in the day.

 

Excellent news, Godfrey will have his hands full when i get home, ra ra.

 

On a more serious note ive bought cartridges at clay grounds before and not been asked for my cert, i presume thats naughty/illegal?

[varminter pb]

From my understanding,

You need to be a certificate holder to purchase cartridges, So, it doesnt seem right that you can lend your certificate to your wife to get her to buy carts on your behalf.

Where did you get the idea you can give her 'authority' to use your certificate to buy/collect carts on your behalf (Im NOT saying it's right or wrong)

I got it from here.... http://www.justcartridges.com/how_to_order.html

 

I must read the appropriate section of the referred to law....http://www.justcartridges.com/pdf/letter_authority.pdf

Edited April 18, 2013 by varminter pb

[varminter pb]

I got it from here.... http://www.justcartridges.com/how_to_order.html

I must read the appropriate section of the referred to law....http://www.justcartridges.com/pdf/letter_authority.pdf

Extract from page 19 of the HO Firearms Law Guidance to the Police 2002 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/143814/HO-Firearms-Guidance.pdf

 

4) in the case of section 2 (shot gun) ammunition, someone who produces another persons valid shot gun certificate, together with written authority from the certificate holder to allow them to purchase or acquire the ammunition;

Edited April 18, 2013 by varminter pb

[eddoakley]

Well I stand corrected (well more educated but its close enough!)

Cartridges at a clay ground are usually different in the same way you can use the grounds guns(

Section 11 exemption or something like that iirc)

Edd

[Wiltsmark]

That's good news to me. Does anybody here do this?

[Vince Green]

On a more serious note ive bought cartridges at clay grounds before and not been asked for my cert, i presume thats naughty/illegal?

Not if you are going to use them on the day.

[beesley121]

silly rule really me thinks.

 

if someone looses their cert, what stops someone writing a letter and forging signiture to buy ammunition?

 

just cartridges do something similar, the deliver to cert holders address and will leave with anyone providing they have a written letter of permission.

 

at least the just cartridges route is a bit more secure

[Oli]

Not if you are going to use them on the day.

Gotcha tnx, was just curious

[walshie]

Yes, someone else can buy cartridges for you with your certificate. My wife did it several times beofre she got her own SGC. No you don't need a SGC to be in possession of cartridges. You could go and buy a thousand and give them to someone without a SGC.

[varminter pb]

So some interesting responses.... Hopefully the wife will ge them all in her car. I'd be alright if I weren't getting my mate a couple of thou too.

Edited April 18, 2013 by varminter pb

[Dangerous Brian]

walshie, on 18 Apr 2013 - 22:15, said:

Yes, someone else can buy cartridges for you with your certificate. My wife did it several times beofre she got her own SGC. No you don't need a SGC to be in possession of cartridges. You could go and buy a thousand and give them to someone without a SGC.

A few years ago there was such a long delay in renewals my dad asked how he was going to buy shells whilst they faffed around. The answer back from the licensing dept was get someone else with a certificate to buy them for you. Not sure with events of the last couple of years you would get that advice now but you can still leave a letter and cert with someone or have shells given to you.

[TaxiDriver]

To the OP

 

thanks for clarifying that with the links to the relevant documents

 

Still,seems a little strange but, hey ho

[varminter pb]

Extract from page 19 of the HO Firearms Law Guidance to the Police 2002 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/143814/HO-Firearms-Guidance.pdf

4) in the case of section 2 (shot gun) ammunition, someone who produces another persons valid shot gun certificate, together with written authority from the certificate holder to allow them to purchase or acquire the ammunition;

To the OP

 

thanks for clarifying that with the links to the relevant documents

 

Still,seems a little strange but, hey ho

No worries glad to have been able to provide some useful information...... We'll all be sending out the wives now, though not sure if he wife knows of the costs involved for 5000 cartridges. But I didn't know the answer regards general possession of cartridges.

[mrmints]

The Just Cartridges route isn't secure at all!

 

I bought a slab and gave my work address to have them dopped off because no one was at home. The next day I got called to our other office so left my certificate and a letter with the site forman and told him to show it to the driver on request etc. When I got to the other office, the cartridges were there waiting for me. The driver had seen the name of the company and just dropped them off!

 

silly rule really me thinks.

 

if someone looses their cert, what stops someone writing a letter and forging signiture to buy ammunition?

 

just cartridges do something similar, the deliver to cert holders address and will leave with anyone providing they have a written letter of permission.

 

at least the just cartridges route is a bit more secure

[JonathanL]

Excellent news, Godfrey will have his hands full when i get home, ra ra.

 

On a more serious note ive bought cartridges at clay grounds before and not been asked for my cert, i presume thats naughty/illegal?

 

Clubs and clay grounds probably won't be 'selling' them, as such. Certainly clubs (as in HO approved target shooting clubs) don't sell ammo to members, technically speaking. They charge for the use of it. It doesn't become the property of the person paying for it.

 

J.

[JonathanL]

The Just Cartridges route isn't secure at all!

 

I bought a slab and gave my work address to have them dopped off because no one was at home. The next day I got called to our other office so left my certificate and a letter with the site forman and told him to show it to the driver on request etc. When I got to the other office, the cartridges were there waiting for me. The driver had seen the name of the company and just dropped them off!

 

Hmmm, I'm not sue that the Just Cartridges system is legal. The Act says;

 

5 Restriction on sale of ammunition for smooth-bore guns.

(1)This section applies to ammunition to which section 1 of the principal Act does not apply and which is capable of being used in a shot gun or in a smooth-bore gun to which that section applies.

(2)It is an offence for a person to sell any such ammunition to another person in the United Kingdom who is neither a registered firearms dealer nor a person who sells such ammunition by way of trade or business unless that other person—

(a)produces a certificate authorising him to possess a gun of a kind mentioned in subsection (1) above; or

(b)shows that he is by virtue of that Act or this Act entitled to have possession of such a gun without holding a certificate; or

©produces a certificate authorising another person to possess such a gun, together with that person’s written authority to purchase the ammunition on his behalf.

When Just Cartridges sell you ammo via the internet you do not 'produce' your certificate to them at the time of the purchase. It would appear that at the point that they sell you them they commit the offence. The fact that you might produce it to the delivery driver is neither here nor there as they have already sold you the ammo and committed the offence.

The arrangement for it to be received by someone else who is in possession of your SGC is even more dicey because the Act specifically says that the certificate must be produced by the person purchasing it. It is the cert holder who is purchasing it and not the person receiving it so I don't really see what it accoumplishes.

I suppose that they might have something in their T&C's which says that the sale isn't actually complete until such time as they see your cert but that sounds like walking a very thin line especially if the delivery driver isn't their employee or isn't empowered to sell things on their behalf.

J.

[Paul T]

JonathanL

 

It's down in their T&Cs:

 

6.5 Deliveries will only be made on receipt of a copy of the front page of the Buyer's shotgun certificate at the time of order by post, fax or email. Proof of certificate may be required from time to time by the Company.

 

http://www.justcartridges.com/terms.html

[JonathanL]

JonathanL

 

It's down in their T&Cs:

 

6.5 Deliveries will only be made on receipt of a copy of the front page of the Buyer's shotgun certificate at the time of order by post, fax or email. Proof of certificate may be required from time to time by the Company.

 

http://www.justcartridges.com/terms.html

 

JonathanL

 

It's down in their T&Cs:

 

6.5 Deliveries will only be made on receipt of a copy of the front page of the Buyer's shotgun certificate at the time of order by post, fax or email. Proof of certificate may be required from time to time by the Company.

 

http://www.justcartridges.com/terms.html

 

That just states that deliveries will only be made if they have a copy of your cert. It doesn't say they won't sell them to you.

 

On their order page they say that if you haven't dealt with them before then you have to fax or email them a copy of your SGC before they will sell you stuff. That, however, doesn't meet the requirement in the Act. In order for someone to sell cartridges to someone the purchaser must produce his certificate. That means actual production of the physical certificate its self - not a copy of it. A copy is not a certificate.

 

J.

[Mr Potter]

That just states that deliveries will only be made if they have a copy of your cert. It doesn't say they won't sell them to you.

 

On their order page they say that if you haven't dealt with them before then you have to fax or email them a copy of your SGC before they will sell you stuff. That, however, doesn't meet the requirement in the Act. In order for someone to sell cartridges to someone the purchaser must produce his certificate. That means actual production of the physical certificate its self - not a copy of it. A copy is not a certificate.

 

J.

Good job Just Cartridges didn't go to your law firm for legal advice before they started their business Jonathan, they would never have got off the ground.

 

Mr Potter

Edited April 23, 2013 by Mr Potter

[JonathanL]

Good job Just Cartridges didn't go to your law firm for legal advice before they started their business Jonathan, they would never have got off the ground.

 

Mr Potter

 

Why do people feel the need to do that? I mean, why just hurl some veiled insults rather than putting forward a rationally considered counter argument? Shooting sites seems to be full of that sort of thing for some reason. I'm not claiming that I'm 100% correct on this, I'm just interpreting what I've read. I may well be wrong (It's reasonably likely that I am) but until someone comes up with a proper argument then it's reasonable to assume that I'm not.

 

So, do you have a rationally considered counter argument?

 

J.

Edited April 23, 2013 by JonathanL

[aris]

 

Why do people feel the need to do that? I mean, why just hurl some veiled insults rather than putting forward a rationally considered counter argument? Shooting sites seems to be full of that sort of thing for some reason. I'm not claiming that I'm 100% correct on this, I'm just interpreting what I've read. I may well be wrong (It's reasonably likely that I am) but until someone comes up with a proper argument then it's reasonable to assume that I'm not.

 

So, do you have a rationally considered counter argument?

 

J.

I suspect this is the PW equivalent of the schoolboy bully tactic of sticking the know-it-all's head own a toilet and flushing (it was called a swirly at my school).