junctiontwo Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 Sorry guys if this is one of those questions..... A friend has a firearms licence and has just bought a rifle I'd like to try. Apparently though he cannot allow me to even hold it as it's technically breaking the law. I realise my SGL doesn't cover me in any way whatsoever but I used his shotgun before my licence came through....... Or is this a whole different ball game? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 mmm, there are ways and means that are legal but in principle he is correct. In fact if you have a certain calibre rifle on your cert it gives you no more legal right than a guy in the street to handle someone elses gun of the same calibre. Sounds daft because it is, here endeth the lesson on daft laws Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 if he isn't a landowner it's tricky but possible ( actually less complex than a SG which can only be lent by the landowner.....) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remmy1100 Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 this is a weird one as quite often feo's tell prospective fac holders to get out with someone and get some experience before they will grant so if its illegal that means the are encouraging people to break or bend the law Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davyo Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 Totally agree with this one & some feo's seem also puzzled by it.I hold fac and when my son turned 14 he applied for his fac to use my guns on his licence as shared.However when the feo landed he asked why does he need a fac as he can use your guns as long as you are with him.But I only have permissions to shoot the land I'm not the land owner nor do I hold the shooting rights, so in my view he needs fac as well as my supervision I said.Just got no reply, just a puzzled look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
team tractor Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 My mate uses my hmr,lr on the farm. He's just put in for fac so now has experience. I was told use my mates to build experience so I did Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junctiontwo Posted October 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 Cheers guys - looks like I'm just watching! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masmiffy Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 (edited) Can I Borrow a Rifle? A person who does not hold a firearm certificate may borrow a rifle (the ‘estate rifle’) from the occupier of private land and use it on that land in the presence of the occupier or the occupier’s servant. “Servant” would be taken to include a stalker, gamekeeper or ghillie employed by the occupier. · The borrower must be aged 17 years or older. If the borrower is 17 years old, then the lender must be aged 18 years or over. · The rifle may only be used on the occupier’s land. · The occupier’s servant, if accompanying the borrower, must hold a firearm certificate for the estate rifle. · All conditions on the lender’s firearm certificate must be complied with. Relevant Act(s): Section 16 (1) Firearms Amendment Act 1988 Above from Countryside alliance This from BASC website http://www.basc.org.uk/download.cfm/docid/DB12FC55-AA2C-4E12-B87529F5D17C4E2F Cheers guys - looks like I'm just watching! You dont have to watch providing your mate has permission and is a 'servant of the landowner or occupier' Edited October 18, 2013 by masmiffy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshwarrior Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 The occupier's servant does not have to be paid so I suspect your friend maybe performing some duties for the land owner ie pest control. It would be how you word it that makes the difference it's a shade of grey again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davyo Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 I suppose that its how you word it, so if you have permissions and you are providing pest control and keeping an eye on the land you could be deemed the servant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stubby Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 I spent 2 years using someone else s gun before applying for my own firearms, and yes I told the FAO that, most probably why I got an open ticket straight away on first application, I'd say your mates just being a **** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 I spent 2 years using someone else s gun before applying for my own firearms, and yes I told the FAO that, most probably why I got an open ticket straight away on first application, I'd say your mates just being a ****That's a bit unfair, do you fancy a revocation while the case is processed by the court to decide on the definition of "servant of the landowner"? I certainly don't and many firearms licencing offices see things different. There is a similar situation that occurs on ranges, what exactly constitutes a "club gun". again without an exact written definition and guidance to the police licencing office it can only be defined in a court. We all know the firearms laws are a total mess, that's what you get once you involve civil servants in anything. Non accountable, hard to dismiss and mostly without any practical knowledge of that they are tasked with Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunnerbob Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 That's a bit unfair, do you fancy a revocation while the case is processed by the court to decide on the definition of "servant of the landowner"? I certainly don't and many firearms licencing offices see things different. There is a similar situation that occurs on ranges, what exactly constitutes a "club gun". again without an exact written definition and guidance to the police licencing office it can only be defined in a court. We all know the firearms laws are a total mess, that's what you get once you involve civil servants in anything. Non accountable, hard to dismiss and mostly without any practical knowledge of that they are tasked with Good post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EMcC Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 How many people are going to be with you when you go shooting with your friend ? If your friend has an FC for the rifle he has and has permission to use it on the land you are both visiting then he is shooting as 'A Servant' of the person that gave him permission to use it on the land he is using it on. So as such, he is authorised to let you use it in his company on the same land. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigman Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 How does the have a go stand at game fairs work then ? I used a .22 sa at a stand before it was fixed to the stand so it couldn't be removed but idea still the same Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 Lets look at this in real life terms and not just some 'ideal' but totally impractical and unenforceable act dreamed up by some bureaucrats for no practical purpose. Prior to mentoring how did anyone gain experience with a rifle when they held no certificate? By shooting their fathers gun or a mates gun,that's how. It may not be lawful but has been going on for donkies .And it hasn't just been exclusive to joe bloggs and his son either,but shooters of all levels of society. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAMMER BURT Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 Lets look at this in real life terms and not just some 'ideal' but totally impractical and unenforceable act dreamed up by some bureaucrats for no practical purpose. Prior to mentoring how did anyone gain experience with a rifle when they held no certificate? By shooting their fathers gun or a mates gun,that's how. It may not be lawful but has been going on for donkies .And it hasn't just been exclusive to joe bloggs and his son either,but shooters of all levels of society. +1 on this info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikaveli Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 Is he a member of a target shooting club? You can use members rifles on a guest day if so? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 How does the have a go stand at game fairs work then ? I used a .22 sa at a stand before it was fixed to the stand so it couldn't be removed but idea still the same There is a special exception for these stands in firearms law, however they are few and far between now. The lead/clay mix gallery .22 ammo was a big earner for Lancashire RFDs years back selling to the Blackpool galleries, Don't think you can even get that stuff now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junctiontwo Posted October 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 (edited) How many people are going to be with you when you go shooting with your friend ? If your friend has an FC for the rifle he has and has permission to use it on the land you are both visiting then he is shooting as 'A Servant' of the person that gave him permission to use it on the land he is using it on. So as such, he is authorised to let you use it in his company on the same land. With hindsight I think my question may have been a little unclear. I don't wish to borrow the gun but merely use it whilst with him on his in-laws estate (1000's of acres) although he isn't technically a 'Servant' as he's not in the employ of them. Is he a member of a target shooting club? You can use members rifles on a guest day if so? I'm not sure but will certainly ask.... Edited October 18, 2013 by junctiontwo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 So how does a target club work? You join, have to attend regularly to be able to apply for FAC so you are using a gun as a member but none FAC holder.......... Servant does not require employment, easier to borrow a rifle and use under supervision than a shotgun! But holding SGC makes no difference (prohibited persons rules still apply) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HW682 Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 Can I Borrow a Rifle? A person who does not hold a firearm certificate may borrow a rifle (the ‘estate rifle’) from the occupier of private land and use it on that land in the presence of the occupier or the occupier’s servant. “Servant” would be taken to include a stalker, gamekeeper or ghillie employed by the occupier. · The borrower must be aged 17 years or older. If the borrower is 17 years old, then the lender must be aged 18 years or over. · The rifle may only be used on the occupier’s land. · The occupier’s servant, if accompanying the borrower, must hold a firearm certificate for the estate rifle. · All conditions on the lender’s firearm certificate must be complied with. Relevant Act(s): Section 16 (1) Firearms Amendment Act 1988 Above from Countryside alliance This from BASC website http://www.basc.org.uk/download.cfm/docid/DB12FC55-AA2C-4E12-B87529F5D17C4E2F You dont have to watch providing your mate has permission and is a 'servant of the landowner or occupier' Just something to bear in mind if relying on this... notice that you may borrow the occupiers gun in the presence of his servant, but it doesn't say you may borrow the servants gun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spandit Posted October 18, 2013 Report Share Posted October 18, 2013 Do you get many police wandering around this private estate? If he has permission to shoot there, I think he has good claim to be an occupier. A 2 minute call to his FEO will clarify things. How else are you supposed to get firearms experience before applying for your own ticket, if that's the aim? Not that it's needed, in law, but try telling Sussex that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyska Posted October 19, 2013 Report Share Posted October 19, 2013 Do you get many police wandering around this private estate? If he has permission to shoot there, I think he has good claim to be an occupier. A 2 minute call to his FEO will clarify things. How else are you supposed to get firearms experience before applying for your own ticket, if that's the aim? Not that it's needed, in law, but try telling Sussex that This goes on and on, and IMO thats not correct. Permission is simply that, occupier implies that you own or have the 'right' to shoot over the land. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spandit Posted October 19, 2013 Report Share Posted October 19, 2013 I agree it's a grey area but the land belongs to his in-laws and I would be confident that any sensible FEO would deem that enough to let the OP have a go under supervision. It comes down to the definitions of servant and occupier which seem to be antiquated terms. If I were in the friend's position, I'd let you have a go but it sounds like he won't even let you hold it unloaded, which is him just being over cautious. My opinion is worth what you've paid for it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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