Gimlet Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 Just one thing to point out, in the period shortly before and when the Union was established, the house of Stuart took over, ie we got Scottish heads of state! True. In fact our current Head of State is half Scottish. The Queen's mother was a Scot. What is becoming clear is that the fabric of our history is so interwoven that the risk in unpicking it is that we will not create two separate garments but a useless heap of bits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandgun Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 True. In fact our current Head of State is half Scottish. The Queen's mother was a Scot. What is becoming clear is that the fabric of our history is so interwoven that the risk in unpicking it is that we will not create two separate garments but a useless heap of bits. As you pointed out History is just that History, quote "move on" i suspect that the people of Britain would still be united given the yes vote just in a different way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amateur Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 What I don't understand is why if the Scot's want independence do they want to remain members of the EU ? According to Baroso they would have to apply for membership of the EU, and their acceptance would not be guaranteed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 True. In fact our current Head of State is half Scottish. The Queen's mother was a Scot. What is becoming clear is that the fabric of our history is so interwoven that the risk in unpicking it is that we will not create two separate garments but a useless heap of bits. that has happened in the past, the result was the kilt KW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piebob Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 What, there was a coup? The SNP didn't win a majority of the seats and control the Toytown Parliament? I know proportional representation is a tricky concept to grasp, but the SNP do seem to be calling the shots. Don't split hairs - the SNP won a majority and you can all suffer the consequences. Sorry, I somehow read your earlier post as "the majority of Scots voted SNP" which isn't what you posted at all. And it's called the Wee Pretendy Parliament. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddy Galore! Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 sorry for my post earlier, it was in poor taste regardless of it being a joke. However, could the Scottish really make a go of it and be successful? otherwise what would be the point? Why cut your nose off to spite your face? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
four-wheel-drive Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 It seems to me that our politicians are just shooting themselves in the foot with what they are saying the Scottish cannot have this or cannot do that if I was Scottish they would get right up my nose and I would want to vote for independence just to spit them. Will they ever learn if you want to bring people together you do not start by telling them that they cannot have this or that as I have said before I think that all of the countries in the uk should have there own governments for the day to day stuff and have a small UK government to handle the big stuff like defence and finance etc in a way I do not blame Scottish people being peed off with a tory government that non of them voted for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 That is exactly what is happening, I have a friend who is very intelligent and is on the verge of changing to YES, just because of the way they are being told what they can and cannot do, so they will react against it. The problem is it is hard to look at it from another perspective if your nationalistic side is being rubbed up the wrong way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlet Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 That is exactly what is happening, I have a friend who is very intelligent and is on the verge of changing to YES, just because of the way they are being told what they can and cannot do, so they will react against it. The problem is it is hard to look at it from another perspective if your nationalistic side is being rubbed up the wrong way. You might make the same argument from the English perspective. Certainly many English people who felt a familial attachment to both their Scottish neighbours and the Union at the start of this debate are losing it because of the terms and more especially the spirit of that debate. That is very sad and I don't think we can entirely blame the politicians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Whatever else the Scots may do, there are v many intelligent people living there,as here and as in Wales - i wouldnt expect any of them to vote emotively, or be swayed by comments about what could or couldnt be. If anyone votes on anything other than practicalities, subsequent generations will reap the problems or the benefits (by chance) and either way it will be the fault of those who voted. As for the English subjugating the Welsh by force, not recently I suspect,. However, go back 1100+ years and we would all have been norsemen but for Alfred and his 'vision' for 'Englaland, or perhaps as Gimlet has said its all a miilion miles removed from where we are now - all of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 That is exactly what is happening, I have a friend who is very intelligent and is on the verge of changing to YES, just because of the way they are being told what they can and cannot do, so they will react against it. The problem is it is hard to look at it from another perspective if your nationalistic side is being rubbed up the wrong way. Surely all they've been told is that they can't use the pound if they become an independent nation? Looking at it rationally why on earth would you want to use someone else's currency in the first place? Surely the whole idea of independence is to be......independent? Salmond's got the hump because he hasn't got a plan B. Suddenly he's realising that politics is a dirty business, and for all his nationalistic bluster he's not up to the job when things don't go his way. I see Salmond as very similar to Nigel Farage and UKIP, whipping up the populus into some sort of nationalist fervour. All very well if you have solid policies behind you, but as has already been seen...he hasn't. SNP (like UKIP) are great for a protest vote, but there's no real substance to either of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 You might make the same argument from the English perspective. Certainly many English people who felt a familial attachment to both their Scottish neighbours and the Union at the start of this debate are losing it because of the terms and more especially the spirit of that debate. That is very sad and I don't think we can entirely blame the politicians. Absolutely, and I think it is very much a symptom of the present generation; "You can`t tell me what to do! I`ll do what I want!". Surely all they've been told is that they can't use the pound if they become an independent nation? Looking at it rationally why on earth would you want to use someone else's currency in the first place? Surely the whole idea of independence is to be......independent? ... ... That was my argument, true independence is to be removed from the host nation and not relying on the EU either, so other than playing on nationalistic fervour it should not be called independence. Semi-inter-dependence doesn`t have the same ring to it and you will not be able to paint yourself blue and wave your buttocks at anyone as you`ll offend someone in Strasbourg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sprackles Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Since Salmonds dream is for an independent Scotland to join the EU.....thus giving up his new found independence which comes at a price.....all new members must use the Euro.I am struggling to get my head around what his intentions and desires really are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Semi-inter-dependence doesn`t have the same ring to it and you will not be able to paint yourself blue and wave your buttocks at anyone as you`ll offend someone in Strasbourg Even that's unlikely now. Just seen on the news that Snr. Barroso, the EU president says it would be 'difficult' for Scotland to become a member. Salmond's reply? Once we've got independence the EU and the UK governments will change their minds!! Still no plan B then? Unbelievable really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Plan A was to get himself crowned king and then Sturgeon would be killing him off, a bit like a Scottish play... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul223 Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Does the Isle of Man think of itself as independent? Quite sure they govern themselves and set their own interest rates etc but also have Sterling, and what about jersey guernsey Falklands ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mick miller Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 The whole Scottish independence thing is a joke in my opinion. Have the Scots really been that 'oppressed' as part of the union of the United Kingdom? I think not. I spent a few years working and living in Scotland and found a certain percentage of it's inhabitants, but by no means not all, hostile, chippy and miserable that an 'Englishman' was up there working and 'taking our jobs'. Pathetic and odd in equal measure. Leapy Salmon hasn't got a scooby, it's all nationalistic puff and bluster without any substance and reeks of 'I want my cake AND I want to eat it'. You cannot have independence and yet still want/ expect seamless monetary union with the rest of the UK. And you cannot remove yourself from the UK and expect to be welcomed into the EU, much less expect to be welcomed in AND keep all the hard won, negotiated rebates and fiscal deals that the UK as a member state has in place. He should keep to painting his face with woad on a weekend and prancing around in a skirt whenever he fancies and leave it at that, it's about all that nationalistic claptrap is good for in the 21st century. The world is moving ever closer together, it's getting smaller and the way of the future is, however much people try to fight it, union and centralisation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flashman Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) He should keep to painting his face with woad on a weekend and prancing around in a skirt whenever he fancies and leave it at that, What an image you conjure up. With his face, in woad he'd look like a trapped knacker bag when you sit down too quickly! All he's got left in the tank is bluster: George Osborne and Carney say Sterling for the remaining UK and Blue Balls face is calling it the "George tax", rather than "sensible advice so the rest of the UK" - don't follow Scotland round the U-bend. The EU don't want the Scots on their own: "oh, they'll change the minds, they'll be begging for us to join..." The Plan B is Devo-Max. It will be dressed up as, "they bullying English won't let us go, so we've extracted all this other stuff from them." Trouble is, the Tories have been cute. The Scottish "No" party is led by Darling, so the Tory government can play very hard ball, safe in the knowledge that that it's a no-lose situation. If the Scots vote "yes", they dump troublesome Scotland and save a few quid and safe Labour seats. If the SNP read the writing on the wall as "no" and try to negotiate better devo-max terms, the Tories can let the "No" party take the flak for refusing to budge. If I was a Toy minister and I won the next election, I'd review the infamous Barnett formula, civil service jobs, State-owned banks remaining in Scotland, ship building, petrochemical plants, etc. You get the idea: sow the wind, reap the whirlwind. Edited February 17, 2014 by Flashman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timps Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) Does the Isle of Man think of itself as independent? Quite sure they govern themselves and set their own interest rates etc but also have Sterling, and what about jersey guernsey Falklands ?The IOM pound is not sterling or guaranteed by the Bank of England and is not legal tender over here. It is its own independent currency called the IOM pound and not the UK pound. If Salmond wanted to go down that route and create his own currency, the Scottish pound for instance, then the rest of the UK would not have a problem. But Salmond wants to keep the security of the UK pound rather than his own currency like the IOM. Edited February 17, 2014 by timps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blunderbuss Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Does the Isle of Man think of itself as independent? Quite sure they govern themselves and set their own interest rates etc but also have Sterling, and what about jersey guernsey Falklands ? There is nothing to stop any country, including Scotland using the pound as their currency if they wish, in the same way some countries use the US dollar. Or having a local currency with a different name, matched to the pound/euro/dollar on the international currency markets. The cheeky bit is expecting the Bank of England and tax payers in the remainder of the UK to underwrite it after you've turned your back on them and later discover your sums don't add up. Not a chance, if a Westminster government tried pushing that through there would be riots. Surely there is a self respect issue here for a fledgling nation too? What is the point of "independence" if there is still a finacial umbilical cord? It's not real Independence, is it? It's like kids playing house. True independence means you stand on your own, no life line, sink or swim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Lots of good sensible posts in here on this subject tonight, thank goodness that the sanity has returned. Sadly all sanity seems to have abandoned wee Eck the fish and he is spouting his usual nonsense along with the absolute clown that is John Swinney. I cannot get over the arrogance of the guy claiming that everyone else is wrong and is peddling BS, with the exception of the stand up and noble SNP, he really makes me angry. The Trump debacle is the perfect example, wee Eck over ruled the local planning committee to allow the golf course development to take place, riding roughshod over the wishes of the local residents, then as soon as Trump had spent all the cash he was going to, Eck jumped onto the next paymaster to buy his favour, the offshore wind development. The comments by Mick above are very true, there is nothing in our current relationship that prevents any Scottish person doing what they want in respect to wealth generation or creation, but the drivel spouted by so much of the yes campaign is that "freedom from Westminster rule" will open the shackles and we can all prosper. Not one person has told me yet what it is that we can't do currently that will change, with the exception of increased welfare payments, which in Scotland is already a ball and chain. This campaign has the potential to do so much damage to the relationships between Scot's and the English it is really quite sad. Too much time spent gazing back into history and very little eye on the future is just stupidity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rimotu66 Posted February 22, 2014 Report Share Posted February 22, 2014 I don't know if this has already been mentioned but, what would happen to our armed forces if Scotland does get independence? Has anyone even thought of that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted February 22, 2014 Report Share Posted February 22, 2014 I don't know if this has already been mentioned but, what would happen to our armed forces if Scotland does get independence? Has anyone even thought of that? Our armed forces will still be our armed forces, all the soldiers signed an oath to the Queen.Scotland would need to raise their own Army,but no doubt will ask for protection from the country they will have just dumped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rimotu66 Posted February 22, 2014 Report Share Posted February 22, 2014 Our armed forces will still be our armed forces, all the soldiers signed an oath to the Queen.Scotland would need to raise their own Army,but no doubt will ask for protection from the country they will have just dumped. I wasn't as sure, Scots Guards etc although I guess they are all trained South of Scotland? By the way, I used to love racing at Pembrey, fantastic circuit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted February 22, 2014 Report Share Posted February 22, 2014 By the way, I used to love racing at Pembrey, fantastic circuit I am sure you did, i come from Pembroke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts