Out of shear interest

[sable]

how many pigeon watch members want out of the eu and whould you want it to revert to the common market as it started out

[69chris]

[wymberley]

Me for one and no. We had a commom market - it was called the commonwealth. Voted correctly in '75.

[fenboy]

Yes please I want out , we survived just fine before the EU and we would be just fine without it !

[SHOOTEMUP]

Want out and no to common market bull as that's what got us into the mess we are in now! we will do just fine without the membership of the eu but "they" will lose a lot of credibility without us and as the learned gent said earlier we have the commonwealth and without the petty eu restrictions we can again trade freely with them.

[matone]

Problem is we dropped our Commonwealth friends right in the wotsit when Ted Teeth sold us down the river......

They`d be quite entitled to give us the cold shoulder!

[wymberley]

Problem is we dropped our Commonwealth friends right in the wotsit when Ted Teeth sold us down the river......

They`d be quite entitled to give us the cold shoulder!

+1

[four-wheel-drive]

The common market that we signed up to in the first place was just nine mostly developed countries and could have been made to work fine but the powers that be wanted more and let in all of the poor ex communist countries that is what is killing it who can blame all of these people for coming here as the pay is so much better here.

[FalconFN]

I think this thread needs a poll.

[timmytree]

Ditch the EU, stop unlimited immigration. Trade won't stop, it just won't be ripped off and governed by Brussels burghers who hate us.

Enough of the commonwealth will still support us, we can rely on America, Canada, Australia amongst others for support. Stuff the rest of Europe.

Let's face it, we've never really agreed with the nearest neighbours over anything except Concorde and they still caused problems by wanting millimetres when we still had proper feet and inches.

We were either at war with them or protecting them from someone else because they gave up when the bell went.

Anything east, north or south of France isn't worth bothering with, its bandit country.

 

Don't you just love having a few beers and a good stir on a Saturday night?

[islandgun]

my current thinking is out, can anyone give some good reasons to stay in ?

[grrclark]

my current thinking is out, can anyone give some good reasons to stay in ?

 

I think we would need to understand the consequences on established supply chains, so if we have producers in the UK that use material sourced from within the EU would that make a difference to a cost of manufacture, i.e. would there be difference in import duties that may make things more expensive, or of course the reverse might be true that goods that we export may become more expensive relative to another competitor.

 

I don't know if there are any rules governing tax that may change the value of trade, i.e. EU businesses are incentivised by buying from other EU countries through lower tax rates or similar. We could change our rules on import duties, but the EU may also change rules around import/export duties that could reduce our competitiveness.

 

Free movement of workers may be a challenge, especially for those that are highly skilled in a particular field, likewise there may be some EU academic research that could be effected.

 

The UK has very large defence and pharmaceutical industries with Europe a significant customer, they may change rules to lessen the attractiveness of UK goods versus other EU suppliers.

 

The cost of unwinding 30 odd years of partnerships, trade agreements, long term contracts, energy deals, etc, etc.

 

I am just guessing at potential issues, I wish I did know exactly what it would mean. I suspect like the Scottish in/out argument that there will be a multitude of answers and nothing simple.

Edited November 22, 2014 by grrclark

[Guest rimotu66]

Ditch the EU, stop unlimited immigration. Trade won't stop, it just won't be ripped off and governed by Brussels burghers who hate us.

Enough of the commonwealth will still support us, we can rely on America, Canada, Australia amongst others for support. Stuff the rest of Europe.

Let's face it, we've never really agreed with the nearest neighbours over anything except Concorde and they still caused problems by wanting millimetres when we still had proper feet and inches.

We were either at war with them or protecting them from someone else because they gave up when the bell went.

Anything east, north or south of France isn't worth bothering with, its bandit country.

 

Don't you just love having a few beers and a good stir on a Saturday night?

 

Sounds about right to me, mind you I am on the sauce as well

[mel b3]

Id vote to get out and for the immigration to stop or be tightened up significantly.

[rich1985]

Get out!! How many billions has this country wasted while in the EU? We fort Two world wars for our freedom and for what, all our power and freedom to be given away to the EU.

[timmytree]

grrclark, you are obviously an intelligent thinking man, your posts show intuition and understanding. I tend to be more emotive and maybe fatalistic.

If we come out of the EU we can still trade with Europe if they want to trade with us, we can set out own tariffs, our own controls. Europe can impose what they want but if we're not in Europe we can tell them to stuff it! We can offer subsidies to undercut Europe, sell what we want but keep what we want for ourselves.

More important we can regain some control of our own country and those who aspire to come here and settle.

The more I look at Europe the more I see some elements determined to reduce Britain to a puppet, pauper state populated by the immigrants that no one else wants. Why else would so many make it through other European countries to make it to the border crossings?

Leaving Europe will bring problems no doubt, but Britain will become Britain again and maybe in time, Great Britain.

[evo]

leaving Europe , only time will tell if it would be a good thing, ukip have certainly made people take note of how europes high and mighty have been secretly taking the wee out of this once great country

 

sad to say but just cant see it happening, but time will tell

 

atb Evo

[matone]

grrclark, you are obviously an intelligent thinking man, your posts show intuition and understanding. I tend to be more emotive and maybe fatalistic.

If we come out of the EU we can still trade with Europe if they want to trade with us, we can set out own tariffs, our own controls. Europe can impose what they want but if we're not in Europe we can tell them to stuff it! We can offer subsidies to undercut Europe, sell what we want but keep what we want for ourselves.

More important we can regain some control of our own country and those who aspire to come here and settle.

The more I look at Europe the more I see some elements determined to reduce Britain to a puppet, pauper state populated by the immigrants that no one else wants. Why else would so many make it through other European countries to make it to the border crossings?

Leaving Europe will bring problems no doubt, but Britain will become Britain again and maybe in time, Great Britain.

Well said ! We`ve been brow beaten and sold scare stories until we`re now a shadow of our past,somewhere amongst our supposed leaders we

need some brave decisions to defeat the French and Germans in their current bloodless attempt to subdue us .

[grrclark]

Timmytree I am not a fan of the EU at all, I just don't know what the cost would be or even if there would be a cost at all.

 

The EU is a cartel and the EU trading zone is our largest export market, so they may well wish to spite the UK and impose trade conditions that make it very unfavourable for us. It really does depend on how unique we are in what we export.

 

For example Scottish whisky is a unique item, so that could likely be continued to be traded without any real impact providing that people want to drink it enough, even although the EU could impose an additional duty on whisky to make it a pound or two more expensive to the EU consumer.

 

Nissan cars made in Sunderland could be an example of the opposite, the EU could make it such that Nissan may be better served by moving their factory to say the Netherlands so we would lose out on thousands of jobs.

 

If the EU collectively has a larger share of business with China then they could potentially do some exclusive trade deals between the two that makes EU sourced products more attractive to the Chinese and damage Britain's trade relationship that way.

 

There are a whole range of situations that we really need to understand what the impact is likely to be before making a decision.

 

The UK is a net consumer of foreign goods and produce, so we buy more than we sell. It can be argued that we also need more from abroad than we produce to sustain our domestic life, so in one sense we need overseas countries more than they need us, but the flip side is that commercially we are a fairly large market so it can be argued that they need us as a customer otherwise they would have much less income.

 

Another piece in that argument is that emerging consumer countries like Brazil or India will take up any slack that Britain might leave, India for example has a consumer market that is ten times the size of the UK so they will have a much greater buying power than the UK alone, but smaller than the EU so it can be argued that in order to compete with these growing powerhouse nations that we need to be part of a bigger buying club.

 

As an example of what I am parping on about, if the level of car ownership in China and India was to grow to the level of car ownership in the Western Europe, then the entire oil output of Saudi Arabia would be needed just to fuel these cars. i.e. demand would outstrip supply. In trade terms if we were to be independent Britain again then we would have much less clout than say an India, China, USA or a combined EU in trying to secure oil for fuel or plastic manufacture.

 

A similar example would be if the level of meat consumption in India and China got to the same level as the western world then it is estimated that a beef burger would cost around $100 as meat would be so scarce. We would globally not be able to produce enough cattle to meet demand so it would become a ridiculous cost. As the UK is a relatively small landmass with a high population density we would not be able to farm enough meat and grow enough crops to satisfy domestic demand and again we would have a weaker voice in trade, so end up paying more in order to get stuff.

 

They are extreme examples to try and illustrate the point. It really isn't a simple decision that can be taken on emotion alone, well at least not without understanding what it might mean for future generations.

 

The countries at the top of the tree were always going to suffer when the massive population countries caught up, so the USA, UK, Germany, Japan, etc. We are so well developed and so expensive as a result that newly developing countries like India where they really don't care about their people would always give us a bloody nose, in trade terms, so the EU is a little bit of a mechanism that softens that blow a little bit. So does a very powerful and advanced military.

 

A final argument is also that being a powerful part of the EU then we can also influence geo-political stability from the inside, although that is a much lesser argument I think.

 

Based purely on emotion I would vote to leave the EU too, but emotion doesn't pay the bills or put food on the table.

Edited November 22, 2014 by grrclark

[kdubya]

All I want is what I actually voted for not this festering bureaucratic self appointed nightmare that is trying to control the way I am supposed to think let alone what I do, and is destroying my heritage

 

 

KW

[Psyxologos]

All I want is what I actually voted for not this festering bureaucratic self appointed nightmare that is trying to control the way I am supposed to think let alone what I do, and is destroying my heritage

 

 

KW

 

Are you referring to the house of 'lords'?

[kdubya]

 

Are you referring to the house of 'lords'?

no I am referring to those **** wipes you love.

 

KW

[Psyxologos]

no I am referring to those **** wipes you love.

 

KW

 

The 'royal family'?

[matone]

 

Are you referring to the house of 'lords'?

I think the House of Lords worked well to even out the ill judged plans of the witless career politicians who

have pervaded politics.That`s why they want rid of the system ,so they can run amock with their petty ,self serving policies.

[Munzy]

Grrclark, that is an absolutely fantastic post, one of the most informative and sensible I've ever read on the forum.

 

I am anti-EU and feel strongly that our freedom releases us from many trade restrictions that will allow us to be more competitive. It's the basis of a free market economy and something I trust Farage understands fully from his real-life experience as a commodities trader.

 

HOWEVER... as you have so perfectly described, we would leave behind a cartel of countries who may well be incentivised to NOT trade with us through increased taxes, fines or embargoes imposed on goods from the UK.

 

You are absolutely right that this needs more understanding, I don't know enough about it, I wish I did so I could be 100% sure on my decision to leave the EU (rather than 90% sure through a rough understanding of free trade economics and emotion alone).

 

Maybe a good place to start is to look at what restrictions, fines or taxes are imposed on us NOW (as a country in the EU) if we were to trade with a non-EU country.

 

Anyone know?!