antimony lead diff on prices

[propercartridges]

hello all as you know I prefer to load carts for game rather than clays for wildlife I prefer a soft shot which deforms on impact my personal usage is 2% antimony now the diff on price to go to 5%ant is about 200 euros that's about 142 pounds more per ton now to quickly switch to clays at say 28 gram that's a load to the ton of 35 714 so if we decide to do the sums that's to divide it up it comes to approx. 2.51 p per 1000 carts loaded then the vat so say 50p so now we are 3 pounds more but I have laid out a bit more money and more stock so give me a pound so would you pay another 4 pounds for harder shot let me see your opinions thanks george

[sitsinhedges]

For that little bit I would pay the extra.

[propercartridges]

there is a lot of number crunching on the money when it come to vast numbers of clay carts people are the boss and the magic word is price and that 4 pounds may mean a difference of say 148 per 1000 or 152 now whats the best price also I would now have 2 piles same all the way through so do you want 1 pallet of carts to sell at say 5000 pounds sitting there or now you have pallets at now near enough another 5000 sitting there to save 4 pounds one has 2% and the other has 5% then the phone call I want this and I want that so you say go all 5% and the price is say back to 152 then tommy comes on and gives you a lecture that you put them up but does not care he wants them cheaper do you all get my drift thanks george

[motty]

For a start, I don't really subscribe to the theory that soft shot deforms on impact. I also don't think that would be desirable, anyway. For live quarry, I want my shot to penetrate as much as possible.

[Vince Green]

Harder shot is a cynical marketing gimmick from years and years ago when people assumed it meant it was somehow better without there being any reason to think so But it gave the manufacturers an excuse to charge more.

 

Its a throwback to the era when painting a stripe up the bonnet of your car made it go faster

 

. I have never seen any evidence to suggest it is an advantage

[SPARKIE]

When you said game loads Are you comparing this price apples for apples 28gram game cart 2% 28gram clay cart 5%

 

Only difference shot size?

 

How much are the cheapest 28gram 6 game carts

 

How much are the cheapest 28gram 7.5 clay carts in 2% and 5 %

Edited October 26, 2015 by SPARKIE

[rovercoupe]

My last lot of clay reloads were pure roof lead and I could not tell any difference between the first lot which were harder. As you say clays is about price price and price!

[Farma Geddon]

For me, given the choice ,I would always go fo 5 % over 2 % .

Simply because it gives tighter patterns .

I like a tight core to my patterns , so I know they will perform further out.

Talking game here ,not clays.

I don't like soft lead shot , and don't care for the deformation is more lethal theory.

[propercartridges]

well all you none believers in soft lead not deforming do this little test get yourself a old telephone book put it in a polythene bag this is to catch the spent pellets pace your self out to your required distance shoot the book mine go through abourt45 pages x 40 yards pick up the now shot book and shake it so most of your pellets will drop down into the bag now examine the spent shot and also count the pages or dig a few out of something you have just shot try this and report back about the shot not deforming thanks george

[sitsinhedges]

I wasn't aware you could get a Yellow Pages loading

 

The shot I dig out of game look just like shot not pancakes though the 20g Traditional Game shot looked very small for a supposed 6 when I spat them out recently. The shot I mostly use is home made and very hard compared to most, kills well.

[propercartridges]

well try the phone book or go to tescos and buy yourself a packet of fax paper as its wraped up in 500 pages you can shoot both sides I like also to see the penetration on different carts if it breaks 40 to how many more pages I am happy with that in conclusion people including myself just don't know what they are shooting

[Hamster]

well all you none believers in soft lead not deforming do this little test get yourself a old telephone book put it in a polythene bag this is to catch the spent pellets pace your self out to your required distance shoot the book mine go through abourt45 pages x 40 yards pick up the now shot book and shake it so most of your pellets will drop down into the bag now examine the spent shot and also count the pages or dig a few out of something you have just shot try this and report back about the shot not deforming thanks george

 

I love seeing your posts but really need to give us a more intelligent (sorry) story here. There is NO similarity between flesh or for that matter hard substances such as clays to a Yellow Pages book !

 

I have plucked thousands of pigeon, a fair few game and a fair few rabbits, no deformation to write home about and even if there was it would be unimaginably difficult to make a correlation with kill quality.

 

The reason we are told soft shot is better for game is because it's cheaper as others have alluded to already, harder shot gives better density (all things being equal).

 

Buy a box of size 6.5 or 7 clay cartridge and the same with a partridge picture on it (wad is irrelevant in this context) and shoot pigeon with them either coming to decoys or flighting to present harder than usual targets, then tell me you can tell the difference. I reckon I prolly could as it happens but the harder clay loads would be the winner.

 

It could easily be argued that shot that doesn't deform would penetrate further in a book or game which then means a longer wound channel which would/should mean better kills, at least marginally.

For a start, I don't really subscribe to the theory that soft shot deforms on impact. I also don't think that would be desirable, anyway. For live quarry, I want my shot to penetrate as much as possible.

 

Correct.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Hamster

[propercartridges]

well do you all want harder shot coz if so then you have to pay for it stick 20 ton on a lorry of shot and it will cost x200 euros another 4 grand plus vat so that's another pullout of extra cash or nearly 2.5 tons of 2% for nowt so the story is chaps do I go to harder shot but charge extra for it going up factory anybody want 20 bore fibre with disc 32 gram knocking up x 260 per 1000

might try on a game book see if any difference :lol:

good isn't it :good:

[deershooter]

George why don't you use 3% for every thing no one out there would argue ,don't mention the % of hardnes just say hardened shot where you want to and no one can argue .Dont tell them what they don't kneed to know just supply a good cartridge at a good price .the range need not be massive

 

1, 28 gram plastic wad in 9-8-7.5-6.5

2, 28 gram fibre wad in 9-7.5

 

That should sort out the clay guys 3 % on every thing

 

Don't forget there is more guys shooting clays than pigeons and game put together

 

Rember marketing is everything from the box down to printing if it don't look right they won't buy it ,it don't matter if it's 5% or 0% wonky writing and paper thin boxes don't sell cartridges

[SPARKIE]

well do you all want harder shot coz if so then you have to pay for it stick 20 ton on a lorry of shot and it will cost x200 euros another 4 grand plus vat so that's another pullout of extra cash or nearly 2.5 tons of 2% for nowt so the story is chaps do I go to harder shot but charge extra for it going up factory anybody want 20 bore fibre with disc 32 gram knocking up x 260 per 1000

might try on a game book see if any difference :lol:

good isn't it :good:

if ya answer the ******* question and stop beating round the bush people might give ya a straight answer......

 

Are you comparing this price apples for apples 28gram game cart 2% 28gram clay cart 5%

Only difference shot size?

How much are the cheapest 28gram 6 game carts

How much are the cheapest 28gram 7.5 clay carts in 2% and 5 %

 

 

 

why dont you just do what every other cart company do and have a set range of carts......no need to have 5 different types of clay carts all in 12 gauge when most shooters or clay grounds only allow 28 gram and no bigger that 7.5

ya dont see eley with 5 models of cart all the same for shooting clays.

a basic cart and a dearer alternative that will do.

Edited October 26, 2015 by SPARKIE

[Whitebridges]

I shouldn't worry too much about it George. I've recently used a few Hull Cartridge 6.5 shot 28g FITASC clay loads on pigeons. They are 5% antimony. Pattern very tight when i put one in to an old fertilizer sack.

Either a clean kill or a miss. These are really too dear for everyday pigeon shooting.

 

So when will I see you in Norfolk then?

[deershooter]

if ya answer the ******* question and stop beating round the bush people might give ya a straight answer......

 

Are you comparing this price apples for apples 28gram game cart 2% 28gram clay cart 5%

Only difference shot size?

How much are the cheapest 28gram 6 game carts

How much are the cheapest 28gram 7.5 clay carts in 2% and 5 %

 

 

 

why dont you just do what every other cart company do and have a set range of carts......no need to have 5 different types of clay carts all in 12 gauge when most shooters or clay grounds only allow 28 gram and no bigger that 7.5

ya dont see eley with 5 models of cart all the same for shooting clays.

a basic cart and a dearer alternative that will do.

 

Don't think that's right

 

Eley Amber

Eley Rebel

Eley select

Eley first

Eley Olympic blues

Eley superbs

Eley vip skeet

Eley vip sporting

Eley vip trap

Eley vip federation

 

That's 10 Eley clay cartridges without shot sizes

 

Not expecting George to offer this amount

[chris1961]

If people want the harder shot the price rises simplest if they don't like it tell them to go to game bore or hull cartridges the service you supply is second d to none no one else would do it so hard shot extra no arguments now what about 28 gram number 7 will do clays and pidgeon

[figgy]

A good fast clay cart, couldn't give a damm about antimony content as I've shot both low and high percentage carts and not one bit of difference could I see.

 

So just offer a good fast cart in 9 for Skeet and close clays 7.5 and some 6.5 faster than fast bit more expensive super dooper FITASC carts.

 

Or just make a do all 28g 6.5 shot game and clay cart.

[propercartridges]

ok all figgy just give a hell of an idea in 28 gram shot 6.5 and in fact I can put any size shot in you need but what price are they worth ? I will make them but we have to get the numbers going on the machine so I will buy lead in at 5% so come on tell me how much you would like to pay in the next few days I will start and see the price you lot offer please say plastic or fibre wad so go some thing like this hello George I offer180 pounds for 1000 28 gram 6.5 shot or wat you fancy in shot size plastic wad and 5% antimony and me and my mates will buy such and such amount now no silly prices please

[Stonepark]

George,

 

If you can manage a 28g, true No 6.5, 5% Sb, 70mm case, 12mm brass, fibre doing 1450ish for £180, I will take the first 1000 from you.

 

I am just south of Stirling if you are coming up through Scotland

 

p.s. I do like a translucent case

Edited October 26, 2015 by Stonepark

[deershooter]

ok all figgy just give a hell of an idea in 28 gram shot 6.5 and in fact I can put any size shot in you need but what price are they worth ? I will make them but we have to get the numbers going on the machine so I will buy lead in at 5% so come on tell me how much you would like to pay in the next few days I will start and see the price you lot offer please say plastic or fibre wad so go some thing like this hello George I offer180 pounds for 1000 28 gram 6.5 shot or wat you fancy in shot size plastic wad and 5% antimony and me and my mates will buy such and such amount now no silly prices please

George it should be your desiciion on what price they should be its unprofessional to have an auction on price , as you know l have been using your cartridges for the last year in competition but still use Hull Soverin in 6.5 shot size as well these are £236 per thousand but that's buying from a retailer.

You are a manufacturer not a retailer so the price should reflect this .i don't go to the supermarket and barter on how much the trolley of shopping ,is so why should we do with cartridges .

 

As I have said before its marketing that sells cartridges not bartering ,I think you are putting far too many people off buying your cartridges by not issuing a standard price list and having a ongoing supply .people want consistency and reliability and as clay shooters are normally tight wads they want to know the price up front . Lots of clay shooters also don't buy 5000 + at a time they only have 1000 .my local club has 2000 members and less than 30 of us buy in large quantities

[chris1961]

I think it would be best for you George to work out the cost to you to manufacture and cost of components then tell us the price obviously you have to make a living out of them +1 for translucent hull

Edited October 26, 2015 by chris1961

[propercartridges]

George it should be your desiciion on what price they should be its unprofessional to have an auction on price , as you know l have been using your cartridges for the last year in competition but still use Hull Soverin in 6.5 shot size as well these are £236 per thousand but that's buying from a retailer.

You are a manufacturer not a retailer so the price should reflect this .i don't go to the supermarket and barter on how much the trolley of shopping ,is so why should we do with cartridges .

 

As I have said before its marketing that sells cartridges not bartering ,I think you are putting far too many people off buying your cartridges by not issuing a standard price list and having a ongoing supply .people want consistency and reliability and as clay shooters are normally tight wads they want to know the price up front . Lots of clay shooters also don't buy 5000 + at a time they only have 1000 .my local club has 2000 members and less than 30 of us buy in large quantities

mr deershooter I used to import large numbers of cars yes they used to cost me near enough a fixed price my average profit was about £2 500 per car and doing nearly 400 per year but the exchange rate slipped and the cheap cars are no longer cheap in amonst that there were other people so if I got that phone call of a person and I saw say 1500 profit I would take it on a few reasons I got him and nobody else did and I could get more cars so what do you do let him walk away its based on turn over with the view of gotcha next please so if I go down to a £5 per thousand and make 10k per hour that's £50 per hour and put in a decent shift of 10 hour that's £500 per day and work 6 days that's£3000 per week now even the local vicars dog knows I am not making a fiver now go to £20 per thousand and 4 times the money thats£12000 per week in conclusion how do I get my carts into peoples guns and the only answer is price the morale of this little story is never refuse profit coming back to supermarkets do you think they pay the asking price try asking some farmers out of lincolshire they take what they can get any way I love a deal and a haggle they are getting used and people need more me I love it next please

[propercartridges]

George,

 

If you can manage a 28g, true No 6.5, 5% Sb, 70mm case, 12mm brass, fibre doing 1450ish for £180, I will take the first 1000 from you.

 

I am just south of Stirling if you are coming up through Scotland

 

p.s. I do like a translucent case

mr stone park first can you pm me your number or ring 07714 323 909 second I got a stinking letter from the proof house about colours of cases so I try to stick to red and just had 1.4 million cases in from cheddite and I am trying to now get a bit regimental on my bought in swag cheers george