tighter gun laws on the way ?

[tx4cabbie]

By the same rationale, I don't train to fight fires, so why bother keeping an extinguisher in my kitchen, I should just leave it to the professionals.

 

There's no way an armed civilian / non law enforcement person will be as effective as a properly trained pro in these horrible situations, but if there are no professionals around when it kicks off, surely it's better to have an armed amateur, even if all they can do is keep the terrorist from having freedom of movement?

If a few folk had been able to keep the terrorist's pinned in one place, rather than walking around freely, shooting people at their leisure, is it possible that lives would have been saved?

[njc110381]

I'd be surprised if illegal ammunition is hard to come by. It's pretty simple to make virtually any calibre round from commercially available consumables if you know what you're doing. That said, it would take me a pretty long time on my Lee Loader to produce enough rounds for a minute of madness with an AK47!

[Vince Green]

I'd be surprised if illegal ammunition is hard to come by. It's pretty simple to make virtually any calibre round from commercially available consumables if you know what you're doing. That said, it would take me a pretty long time on my Lee Loader to produce enough rounds for a minute of madness with an AK47!

But how long would it take you to drive a truck full over the border from Khazakstan? Hidden in a consignment of oranges?

Edited November 17, 2015 by Vince Green

[njc110381]

But how long would it take you to drive a truck full over the border from Khazakstan? Hidden in a consignment of oranges?

65 hours without traffic according to Google maps...

[The Mighty Prawn]

By the same rationale, I don't train to fight fires, so why bother keeping an extinguisher in my kitchen, I should just leave it to the professionals.

 

That's an apples and oranges argument because a fire extinguisher and no training is fine to deal with a small fire in your own home without involving the professionals but to run with the analogy arming the populace is the equivalent of having your fire extinguisher to deal with a small fire, not knowing if there are other fires around, or maybe this one fire is luring you in so a bigger fire they have planned can burn more people, what if two of you are both trying to put out the fire and squirt each other with your fire extinguishers? Can you quickly identify the difference between a small fire and someone having a crafty fag? There are so many variables that the idea of an armed public is more dangerous than the initial threat

 

Also look at the panic reactions since the attacks, complete chaos - anyone fancy their chances of staying calm enough to make considered use of your concealed firearm when hundreds are running and screaming?

[tx4cabbie]

That's assuming that you are looking for an armed populace to take the role of police /army, and roam around solving the problem.

I'm sat with my wife eating dinner when a couple of gentlemen come in and start shooting people. I'm not looking to climb into the aircon system and outflank them, and I don't need specialist training to know that, since they just raked a table of mum,dad,and a high chair full of toddler, they are certainly bad people.

Is it better to cover my wife with my body and know that even my hefty carcass won't stop 7.62 from hitting her, or fire back at the culprit, possibly disturbing his aim, possibly stopping him?

Better surely to do something than nothing.

 

If, like in some states across the pond, we had a requirement of training before being permitted to carry, one of the central tenets could be - stay put, shoot only obvious aggressors, don't get in the way of the old bill doing their job.

 

It'll never happen, and I'm not entirely unhappy about that, but I know if I were in a venue when armed killers started shooting innocent people, I'd rather be able to shoot back, than not.

[STOTTO]

The problem is that to make this effective and worthwhile you would need to train a seriously large number of people. Anyway studies have shown that unless the person has extremely good training the vast majority of folks who carry, mainly in the USA eithet cant draw their concealed carry in time to make it a difference without getting themselves killed or without making a hash of it. The studies were in the form of simulations and the majority failed to be at all effective at responding to a gun man

 

In this country and worldwide numerous instances have demonstrated that even trained professionals with firearms are as much a danger to themselves and the public at large as they are to the criminal element among us. Joe Wanabe with a ‘Pistol Pete’ certificate from the Government sponsored local-yokel licensing takeaway fills me with dread!

 

By the law of probability any key personal training would best be focused on how to avoid getting into a ‘life or death’ situation in the first place. Secondary consideration should address dealing with the situation if you do, escape being the route to a longer life, leaving the less aware to pick up the tab!

 

Because according to a previous post, ‘Villain or Victim’ say goodbye to your FAC/SGC!

 

Capital review

Edited November 17, 2015 by STOTTO

[old'un]

Don't panic Mr Mannering!!!!

[STOTTO]

Don't panic Mr Mannering!!!!

 

I know but, “Don’t tell them Pike”!

[Scully]

 

In this country and worldwide numerous instances have demonstrated that even trained professionals with firearms are as much a danger to themselves and the public at large as they are to the criminal element among us. Joe Wanabe with a ‘Pistol Pete’ certificate from the Government sponsored local-yokel licensing takeaway fills me with dread!

 

By the law of probability any key personal training would best be focused on how to avoid getting into a ‘life or death’ situation in the first place. Secondary consideration should address dealing with the situation if you do, escape being the route to a longer life, leaving the less aware to pick up the tab!

 

Because according to a previous post, ‘Villain or Victim’ say goodbye to your FAC/SGC!

 

Capital review

I don't see why those in the armed forces or trained Police couldn't be armed even when off duty in civvies, or ex-serving personnel with the adequate training.

It's not perfect by any means, but faced with the alternative of being forced by law to become a victim, anything is better than simply being helpless.

On Radio 5 Live the other day, a reporter recorded an actual event in Paris when gunfire was heard by customers in a small restaurant; the shutters were drawn, the lights turned off and everyone laid on the floor and waited....totally helpless, for either nothing to happen or to be discovered by gunmen and simply slaughtered.

As it turned out it was a false alarm, but faced with no alternative they simply complied with official advice, which was much the same as that given by the Met in this country when faced with similar. Hide and await your fate. Is it me?

As angry as I am regarding the shootings in Paris, I think it is this enforced helplessness which angers me more than the actual shootings.

[mossberg-operator]

Armed police should carry here on/off duty. Shoot to kill. So a terrorist couldn't be sure about his/her helpless victims in the UK.

[BrowningB525]

I'm going to be honest, I wouldn't fancy my chances with a handgun against an AK47.

[tx4cabbie]

This "wait powerless for salvation or death" advice comes from those who, in the event of a similar incident, get to hide behind the police. I drive past the palace of Westminster often, and all around, once you get past the fencing and the gates, which themselves are behind ram-proof barriers, are armed met officers, there to prevent terrorist and criminal alike from harming our politicians.

There are other armed officers about, standing outside the embassies of certain nations, or driving around in arv cars. Some motorcycle police have sidearms.

 

Say something like this happened here, at a similar time in a similar place.

The only people with any chance of stopping it are either in a static role, in cars which, even with blues and twos on, stand little chance of making headway in an increasingly gridlocked city, or on bikes. The bikes have the best chance of getting there in any meaningful time, and when they arrive, it's a couple of chaps with glocks, wearing hi-viz, against full or semi auto centrefire, possibly several attackers.

 

I know in a country where handguns are effectively banned, to talk about arming certain trained sections of the population is just pie in the sky. I know that "Joe wannabe " with his ccw fac from the local government raffle, or however you put it, is not the answer to the problem.

 

I just feel that sitting, shaking with fear and uncertainty, waiting for fanatics to find and kill you, part of you might wish for a way to defend yourself and your loved ones.

 

I've no doubt there have been problems in the USA with ccw, someone will always drop the ball, make a mistake. There have been a lot of recorded incidents, however, of armed citizens stopping crime, preventing mass shootings, backing up the police. Yes, you wouldn't want to clear a house with these people, or have them attend a domestic dispute, but many fire more practice rounds than the professionals, just think how good some of our practical pistol chaps were before they lost their toys and had to move to front stuffers or mini rifle.

In a situation where it's best to leave it up to the police, surely any sensible person would do just that ; but in a clear cut case, like in Paris, where you can see bad people firing into the crowd, tell me a person whose hobby is putting their rounds in the right place wouldn't be better off armed than not.

[tx4cabbie]

I'm going to be honest, I wouldn't fancy my chances with a handgun against an AK47.

Neither would I, but I'd rather have one in my hand than a phone with 999 if the chap with the ak was in the room and the police were a couple of miles of slow moving traffic away. Better to have SOME chance than no chance.

[STOTTO]

I don't see why those in the armed forces or trained Police couldn't be armed even when off duty in civvies, or ex-serving personnel with the adequate training.

It's not perfect by any means, but faced with the alternative of being forced by law to become a victim, anything is better than simply being helpless.

On Radio 5 Live the other day, a reporter recorded an actual event in Paris when gunfire was heard by customers in a small restaurant; the shutters were drawn, the lights turned off and everyone laid on the floor and waited....totally helpless, for either nothing to happen or to be discovered by gunmen and simply slaughtered.

As it turned out it was a false alarm, but faced with no alternative they simply complied with official advice, which was much the same as that given by the Met in this country when faced with similar. Hide and await your fate. Is it me?

As angry as I am regarding the shootings in Paris, I think it is this enforced helplessness which angers me more than the actual shootings.

 

The problem is that the government do not want our help, they fear an armed proletariat more than they fear the terrorists and the accepted propaganda is that the government have the situation under control.

 

Helpless is as helpless does!

[Scully]

 

The problem is that the government do not want our help, they fear an armed proletariat more than they fear the terrorists and the accepted propaganda is that the government have the situation under control.

 

Helpless is as helpless does!

I couldn't agree more; can't have civilians running around protecting themselves. Unthinkable.

[old'un]

I'm thinking of a way to avoid being shot ................................... no cannot think of one .....ah well....its a long wayyyy to tipparyeee its a long long way to go......

[digger]

without dragging this way off topic I am reliably informed that much as department stores have "plain clothed" store detectives not everyone at Westfield is a shopper. The powers that be are not stupid or unprepared.

[Jaymo]

without dragging this way off topic I am reliably informed that much as department stores have "plain clothed" store detectives not everyone at Westfield is a shopper. The powers that be are not stupid or unprepared.

Nope, some of them are couples 'trying out' the beds! Or was it a bench?

[The Mighty Prawn]

That's assuming that you are looking for an armed populace to take the role of police /army, and roam around solving the problem.

I'm sat with my wife eating dinner when a couple of gentlemen come in and start shooting people. I'm not looking to climb into the aircon system and outflank them, and I don't need specialist training to know that, since they just raked a table of mum,dad,and a high chair full of toddler, they are certainly bad people.

Is it better to cover my wife with my body and know that even my hefty carcass won't stop 7.62 from hitting her, or fire back at the culprit, possibly disturbing his aim, possibly stopping him?

Better surely to do something than nothing.

 

If, like in some states across the pond, we had a requirement of training before being permitted to carry, one of the central tenets could be - stay put, shoot only obvious aggressors, don't get in the way of the old bill doing their job.

 

It'll never happen, and I'm not entirely unhappy about that, but I know if I were in a venue when armed killers started shooting innocent people, I'd rather be able to shoot back, than not.

But the problem with this that none of you will care to see is a bunch of strangers rush in with guns, you pull yours, the guy two tables behind sees you have a gun and in panic decides you are with the attackers and shoots you, or you go to shoot a baddie and an innocent gets shot instead, are you now a murderer? Or manslaughter? For the small number of times an armed populace might make a difference I believe there would be more problems caused.

 

What if one of the armed public is heaven forbid of middle eastern descent, is them pulling a gun going to reassure or escalate the situation? I would suggest mass panic with even more casualties

[wildrover77]

But the problem with this that none of you will care to see is a bunch of strangers rush in with guns, you pull yours, the guy two tables behind sees you have a gun and in panic decides you are with the attackers and shoots you, or you go to shoot a baddie and an innocent gets shot instead, are you now a murderer? Or manslaughter? For the small number of times an armed populace might make a difference I believe there would be more problems caused.

 

What if one of the armed public is heaven forbid of middle eastern descent, is them pulling a gun going to reassure or escalate the situation? I would suggest mass panic with even more casualties

That is not the outcome in countries where concealed carry is allowed.

[scotslad]

But the problem with this that none of you will care to see is a bunch of strangers rush in with guns, you pull yours, the guy two tables behind sees you have a gun and in panic decides you are with the attackers and shoots you, or you go to shoot a baddie and an innocent gets shot instead, are you now a murderer? Or manslaughter? For the small number of times an armed populace might make a difference I believe there would be more problems caused.

 

What if one of the armed public is heaven forbid of middle eastern descent, is them pulling a gun going to reassure or escalate the situation? I would suggest mass panic with even more casualties

 

Exactly.

 

Even if u have armed amatuers how would u come to be out at a fitba game or having a meal with the wife ;tooled up' so after a few drinks its still a good idea to have tooled up folk around.

 

I mind when SA held the world cup a reporter/columnist wrote about how when u went to water parks or even nightclubs they had seperate gun rooms to store everyones guns.

Why u can go out clubbing have a skinful of pints and then be handed ur handgun back. Just asking for trouble

The streets are dodgy enough at shutting time at a wknd with out adding firearms to the mix.

 

 

The chances off being invloved in a terrorist attack are absolutley tiny, so tiny not even worth worrying about, hundreds of other things far more likely to kill u than terroism.

[ordnance]

 

I'm going to be honest, I wouldn't fancy my chances with a handgun against an AK47.

Neither would i but it could save your life. Two of the terrorists bellow were carrying AK/47s.

 

 

 

 

On 3 February, MacManus and his unit crossed the border and took over the house of farmer Pat Loughran. Loughran was ordered to lure Eric Glass, an Ulster Defence Regiment soldier and part-time Fermanagh District Council dog warden, to his home on the pretence that his dog had attacked a family member.

Corporal Eric Glass of the 4th (Co Fermanagh) Battalion, Ulster Defence Regiment (4 UDR), arrived at the farmhouse on the morning of 5 February. When he arrived at the gate of the farmhouse he was ambushed by the unit and ordered to get out of his van. The unit opened fire on Glass, who then reached for his handgun, which he always had ready, loaded and placed on the passenger seat of the van. A gun battle ensued in which Glass was badly injured: his thigh bone was shattered and the bone partially penetrated his skin. He managed to fight off his attackers, killing MacManus in the process. Corporal Glass later received both the Queen's Gallantry Medal and Distinguished Conduct Medal for bravery, making him the "most decorated" UDR soldier.

Edited November 17, 2015 by ordnance

[tx4cabbie]

I think this might upset the "sloe gin after the second drive then bottle of claret at lunch " brigade, but wouldn't the standard safety rules apply?

 

I.e, if you're out for a dram or two, leave your gun indoors, and if you intend to carry, stay sober. Similarly, if you have a sidearm on you, and a bloke cuts you up at the lights, or nicks your parking space, just wipe your mouth and stay calm.

 

It could be heinlein (sic) who said ".. An armed society is a polite society ", could also be applied to "... Is a society where people don't get out of their pram over the little things ".

[The Mighty Prawn]

Neither would i but it could save your life. Two of the terrorists bellow were carrying AK/47s.

 

Sorry Ordnance for some reason when I quote you it won't bring the second of your quotes over but just to say, this was a trained member of the armed forces in a known hostile area so I don't think it means anything in the debate of concealed carry being any use in a civilian response to a terrorist attack.

 

And to Wildrover, i don't doubt there have been some cases where civilians being armed has saved lives but there are also countless incidents where disasters have occurred and I don't feel the reward is worth the risk

 

I found these with the simplest Google search for "concealed carry accidents" and think they speak for themselves

 

1) Woman Preparing to Shoot Ferguson Protesters Accidentally Shoots Self

 

The irony of Becca Campbell’s death is surpassed only by its tragedy. While the passenger in a car being driven by her boyfriend in downtown St. Louis, Missouri, Campbell “jokingly” waved a gun around while reportedly exclaiming, “We’re ready for Ferguson!” Her boyfriend ducked, which seems like a perfectly normal response to having a loaded gun pointed at him, leading to an accident. The impact of the collision caused the gun to fire, hitting Campbell in the head and killing her. The boyfriend later told police the two had purchased the weapon days before the Ferguson grand jury verdict, in anticipation of some imaginary, life-threatening “civil unrest.”

 

2) 3-Year-Old Accidentally Shoots and Kills Mother

 

In the days just before Thanksgiving this year, Christa Engles was accidentally killed by her 3-year-old son, who’d found the semiautomatic weapon he used hidden “under a couch” in the family’s Tulsa, Oklahoma, home. The 26-year-old mother was in the middle of changing the diaper of her 1-year-old daughter at the time she was shot. According to a neighbor, Engles’ own mother returned home and “found the two children covered in blood.” Engles was an Army veteran whose husband, a truck driver, was on the road at the time. Police said en route to be interviewed, the confused toddler kept repeating two words: “Mommy shot.”

 

3) Florida Man Threatening to Shoot Wife’s Dog Accidentally Shoots Self in Face Instead

 

A man in Florida, having just threatened to shoot his wife’s dog, accidentally shot himself in the face, killing himself in the process. Police report that Dennis Eugene Emery was having a fight with his wife, the owner of 13 dogs, over the animals’ barking. He pointed a gun at one of the dogs, going so far as to cock the weapon to prove he would actually shoot. Later, Emery—who for some reason, was holding the barrel toward his face—was trying to put the hammer back in place when the weapon fired. The 57-year-old was dead by the time authorities arrived on the scene.

 

Emery had criminal run-ins with local police a staggering 34 times since just 2012. In October alone, he’d been arrested three times in six days. When he died, he was facing charges ranging from aggravated assault to resisting arrest. (None of these charges landed him in jail or the cemetery, making him a potential posthumous contributor to #CrimingWhileWhite.)

 

4) Man Shoots Self in Penis

 

While sitting in his car at a gas station in Macon, Georgia, a man attempting to put his gun in its holster instead shot himself. In the penis.

 

Weirdly, instead of calling the police or an ambulance, the unidentified man drove to a friend’s house, where he removed his clothes to find that the bullet had “exited out of his buttocks," an epiphany he probably came to as “[t]he spent round fell onto the floor.” It’s likely he was also disappointed to later learn he’d miss out on the only upside of shooting yourself in the penis, which is having a one-of-a-kind story to tell for the rest of your life. As it turns out, he’s just one of six guys who’ve shot themselves in the penis over the last five years alone.

 

 

5) Gun Seller Dad’s 3-Year-Old Shot By 4-Year-Old Neighbor

 

Michael Holzworth is a father, weapons enthusiast and online gun seller whose 3-year-old was accidentally shot, using one of Holzworth’s guns, by a 4-year-old neighbor. The Lake Stevens father was babysitting his son in late November when he heard a loud “boom” from another room. When he finally got through the locked door to the room the children were in, he initially thought the door itself had injured the boy. Doctors at the hospital later informed Holzworth his son had been shot in the mouth. Holzworth’s estranged wife, who filed for an order of protection months prior to the incident, accused her husband of having “a habit of leaving his Ruger 380 with his 12-year-old daughter. He will leave her in the car with it for protection while he goes into the store.”

 

News footage of Holzworth’s condominium, where the shooting took place, shows a metal sign on the door that reads, "We don't dial 9-1-1” above a metal cutout of a pistol.

 

6) Idaho State University Professor Shoots Self in Foot During Class

 

Presumably operating under the absurd idea that the best way to stop school shootings is to arm every teacher and faculty member to the teeth, the Idaho State Legislature passed a law in July allowing gun owners to carry concealed weapons on college campuses across the state. Just two months later, an unnamed chemistry professor at Idaho State University shot himself in the foot, right in the middle of class, with his legally concealed gun. The professor had been toting the pistol around in his pocket when the gun apparently went off. Speaking to press, Idaho State University president Arthur Vailas took the opportunity to say out loud what we are all thinking, remarking, “When they passed this law, it was bound to happen.”

 

7) Florida Man Shoots Self in Butt

 

A man from Hollywood, Florida, accidentally shot himself in the butt, which didn’t cause any life-threatening injuries but was probably not the ideal thing to have to explain to police and emergency care workers. According to a local paper, the man—identified only as a twentysomething —was in the middle of cleaning his .38 caliber weapon when the accident occurred. The man (let’s call him “Butter Fingers”) apparently dropped the gun, which discharged a round when it hit the floor, striking him in his buttocks. He then reportedly “banged on” the door of a neighbor, who called local cops for help.

 

8) Georgia Waffle House Cook Shoots and Kills Customer Who Won’t Leave

 

After a verbal altercation with two “unruly” customers came to head with a glass of water being tossed in his face, Waffle House cook Quintavius Martin decided to respond by shooting one of them. According to witnesses, Martin had been arguing with the two men for some time when they began to physically threaten him, and the cook repeatedly told them they needed to leave. The water, apparently, was the straw that broke the camel’s back for Martin. In response, the Georgia man grabbed his gun and fired on 33-year-old Adrian Mosley, who died at the scene. Incredibly, the case was the second fatal shooting to take place at an Atlanta-area Waffle House in a two-week span.

 

Just one month prior to the shooting, the Georgia Legislature passed HB 60, more commonly known as the “guns everywhere” law, which permits gun owners to carry weapons into bars, churches and government buildings.

 

 

10) Jose Canseco Accidentally Blows His Left Finger Off

 

Jose Canseco: Former Major League Baseball star; steroids whistleblower; guy who once shot his own finger off. Earlier this year, Canseco accidentally shot himself in the left hand while attempting to clean a gun at his Las Vegas home. Girlfriend Leila Knight described the (presumably very bloody) scene, saying, “I heard the gun go off and saw his middle finger hanging by a string.” Doctors reattached the digit, and mid-recovery, Canseco gave a teary interview to “Inside Edition” in which he described himself as “kind of traumatized by [the incident].” Later, he tweeted that the finger had fallen off during a poker game, and that he was considering auctioning it off to the highest bidder on eBay, neither of which was true. Canseco’s finger is, at least for now, successfully back on his left hand, though reports state he’ll never regain full use of his hand.

 

11) Man Accidentally Shoots Self In Hand, Killing Dog in Process

 

Police in Michigan’s Upper Peninsula received a call from a man who had accidentally shot himself in the hand. He was taken to a local hospital where he was treated for his injuries, none of which were life-threatening. Unfortunately, what at first appears to be the supremely lucky story of a not-so-responsible gun owner did cause one casualty: the man’s poor dog, who was shot and killed by the bullet after it exited the man’s hand.

 

12) 9-Year-Old Girl Accidentally Shoots and Kills Her Gun Instructor

 

Charles Vacca, an instructor at Arizona Last Stop gun range (aka “Bullets and Burgers”), was in the process of teaching a 9-year-old student how to fire an Uzi when the terrible accident occurred that took his life. Footage from moments before the incident shows Vacca handing the gun to the girl and positioning her to begin firing. In the seconds just after the video ends, the girl pulled the trigger but “due to the recoil, the weapon went straight up in the air.” A police report would later quote the girl as saying the submachine gun “was too much for her” to handle. Vacca’s children ultimately issued a heart-wrenching video statement to the girl wishing her peace.

 

There is no age minimum for firing a weapon under Arizona state law.

 

13) Iowa Cop Accidentally Shoots Self and Another Officer

 

In early November, an Iowa City officer in the middle of cleaning his weapon (which seems to be a popular time for guns to go off) accidentally shot both himself and another officer. According to an Intellihub article about the accident brilliantly titled “Oops, My Bad,” Police Chief Sam Hargadine refused to name the officers involved, but did indicate that “both will make 100 percent recoveries.” The incident is, like all incidents of this sort, “under investigation.”

 

Honorable Mention: Man Leaves Gun with 11-Year-Old Daughter While He Gets a Tattoo

 

 

Father of the Year John Ruiz faced the issue we all face when heading out to do some mundane task: What to do with our guns? Luckily, the resourceful father was struck with the idea of leaving his .22 caliber weapon with his 11-year-old daughter, which provided the unexpected benefit of giving her a way to “protect herself while he was away.” Ruiz’s daughter took the gun to a local swimming pool where it was spotted by a neighbor who alerted the police. For Ruiz, who was getting a new tattoo at the time, this wasn’t a rare example of perfect parenting. According to Albuqurque NBC affiliate KOB-4, the father regularly leaves the gun with the girl “when he goes to school or runs errands, for protection in case someone breaks in or something.”