Lead - the invisible killer

[Old farrier]

It will kill thousands of birds, they just been shot!

👍👌

 

The birds taken for analysis it must be recorded the type of bird male or female and area collected from if they weren't shot with non toxic why has no action been taken

And could someone tell me how come I have yet to find a sick /dying dead duck with my dogs there well capable of finding them and flushing them or maybee other members find the thousands first

Bit of hard evidence needed

Edited November 26, 2015 by Old farrier

[rjimmer]

Am I missing something here - doesn't the angling community still use leads weights? Wasn't there a similar thing some years back claiming thousands of birds died from eating discarded weights?

Lead weights under a size that can be eaten by birds are banned for angling.

Edited November 26, 2015 by rjimmer

[shaun4860]

They quoted Norway as banning lead and because of that hunting has increased.

 

Totally ignored the fact that Sweden have repealed the ban as it couldn't be proved.

 

[bartcjf]

^{Probably need to get as many people as possible to sign this petition to keep lead shot.}

 

^{https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/112165}

Edited November 26, 2015 by bartcjf

[malkiserow]

I've just been looking at the source documents and the people behind this Oxford Symposium. Led by an ornithologist, this was only going one way.......

 

I note that is states that Danish hunters would "not go back to lead" is this true?

[panoma1]

Look at the participants of the Oxford lead Symposium? Made up of the usual suspects from WWT and RSPB and tame academics.....and they are claiming it is an independant Symposium!

[Guest rimotu66]

Usual biased BBC rubbish, such a shame that so many people believe everything they see on the tv and read in the papers.

 

Great first post Bart and welcome to PW. Its here as well http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/324601-keep-all-lead-ammunition-petition/

[David BASC]

Yes we were onto the BBC yesterday as the 'story' broke

 

We can counter such claims with hard evidence as we have done, that's why the gathering of hard evidence is so important

 

We don't find dead birds when we are out and about (regardless of cause of death) as they are quickly taken by scavengers etc., think about how may birds, rabbits hares etc. must die every year, but we don't see them...that's why looking at overall population dynamics is more important to understanding what's really going on in the environment

[Old farrier]

Yes we were onto the BBC yesterday as the 'story' broke

 

We can counter such claims with hard evidence as we have done, that's why the gathering of hard evidence is so important

 

We don't find dead birds when we are out and about (regardless of cause of death) as they are quickly taken by scavengers etc., think about how may birds, rabbits hares etc. must die every year, but we don't see them...that's why looking at overall population dynamics is more important to understanding what's really going on in the environment

I'm sorry can't agree my dogs find plenty of mixie rabbits and wounded game to the point one is a dam nuisance

In and out of season but as yet never a sick duck

 

Also if what you say is true who finds them to get the figures ?

And they must find them to say cause of death is ingested shot

[Scully]

Yes we were onto the BBC yesterday as the 'story' broke

 

We can counter such claims with hard evidence as we have done, that's why the gathering of hard evidence is so important

 

We don't find dead birds when we are out and about (regardless of cause of death) as they are quickly taken by scavengers etc., think about how may birds, rabbits hares etc. must die every year, but we don't see them...that's why looking at overall population dynamics is more important to understanding what's really going on in the environment

Whoa whoa whoa...you're starting to sound exactly like Mr Swift here David. This is exactly what he said to the audience of a BASC meeting I attended when a member asked where all the dead, lead poisoned carcasses were, but had no reply when asked: 'How come those who reckon they're being poisoned appear to have no problem finding them then?'

We find all manner of dead carcasses on our shoot, from Buzzards (electrocuted before anyone suggests otherwise) to crows to rabbits to roe to piles of pigeon feathers,etc etc etc, but no wildfowl nor even piles of scattered feathers, despite there being many many about.

[webber]

Complete tosh of course. Until these scientists can come up with 100,000 carcases all of which can be shown to have died from lead poisoning the 'evidence' will never be reliable.

 

Aware of the dangers of starting a thread about cats I will point out that cats kill many millions of birds every year.

You beat me to it.

 

webber

[malkiserow]

They made the title focus on human health first then the environment...... grabs the attention of the general population better. Who wants to take risks where "human health" is concerned ? A clever move from a focus on birds to people and especially children.

[David BASC]

Fair point, I agree I find the remains (mainly feathers) of the odd pheasant/ pigeon that's been predated, but damn all else on my shoot. Compared to the number of birds and mammals that are there what I find is tiny and cant remember the last time I found an intact bird /mammal

 

As I said, the important figures are the overall numbers and conservation status

 

D

[rodp]

Yes we were onto the BBC yesterday as the 'story' broke

 

We can counter such claims with hard evidence as we have done, that's why the gathering of hard evidence is so important

 

We don't find dead birds when we are out and about (regardless of cause of death) as they are quickly taken by scavengers etc., think about how may birds, rabbits hares etc. must die every year, but we don't see them...that's why looking at overall population dynamics is more important to understanding what's really going on in the environment

And the result was ? Are they going to give air time to your / our side of the story ? Will it be reported as news that the original story was inaccurate. It's alright "Getting on to the BBC" but have you demanded a fair answer to be broadcast? If not, have you reported them to the relevant body?

[David BASC]

The result was we were quoted within the main article as follows:

 

Christopher Graffius from the British Association for Shooting and Conservation told BBC News: "We have already reduced the amount of lead being released into the environment.

 

"And when it comes to human health, there are risk management procedures [in place]; a ban would be a knee-jerk response - it's not proportionate."

[Penelope]

Anything under an ounce or larger than a number 8 shot has to be lead free, those weights/sizes or anything either side of those it's lead all the way still.

 

All lead free nowdays . Sure of it .

[rodp]

The result was we were quoted within the main article as follows:

 

Christopher Graffius from the British Association for Shooting and Conservation told BBC News: "We have already reduced the amount of lead being released into the environment.

 

"And when it comes to human health, there are risk management procedures [in place]; a ban would be a knee-jerk response - it's not proportionate."

Hmm, I'll be honest, that statement just sounds like an excuse to the original accusation. I didn't hear the news nor have I read it, but that sounds like a get out. Is there no way of initiating something, can't a scientific statement be announced on BBC news, be on the offensive instead of always having to be on the defensive ?

Seems like BASC (and others) say nothing until attacked, and then it's minimalist !

[andrewluke]

is it a coincidence that this was released a couple of hours ago "

 

Birds of prey shot, trapped or poisoned in 23 incidents

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-34931564

Edited November 26, 2015 by andrewluke

[squirrelhall]

Fair point, I agree I find the remains (mainly feathers) of the odd pheasant/ pigeon that's been predated, but damn all else on my shoot. Compared to the number of birds and mammals that are there what I find is tiny and cant remember the last time I found an intact bird /mammal

 

As I said, the important figures are the overall numbers and conservation status

 

D

I doubt much dies of old age or illness in the wild. It will be predated before it gets that far gone. watch a perigrien working a flock of birds. And migrants wont make it across the sea when they get that far gone. IMHO

[rodp]

I doubt much dies of old age or illness in the wild. It will be predated before it gets that far gone. watch a perigrien working a flock of birds. And migrants wont make it across the sea when they get that far gone. IMHO

We can but hope

 

Oh, sorry, wrong thread

 

 

 

:lol:

[yod dropper]

I remember in the early 80s when the campaign to ban small lead shot for angling was in full swing. In Norfolk we were told that there were few pairs of breeding swans in the county. This oft quoted and seemingly accepted figure was nonsense. Even as a boy on a bike, travelling perhaps only 2-3 miles, I could have easily visited more than half of the supposed population in places where I knew there were breeding swans. The ban came in shortly after.

 

Given what I can only see as an insidious sustained anti-shooting campaign I can only hope BASC spend my money well and fight our corner effectively.

[Marksman1997]

^{Probably need to get as many people as possible to sign this petition to keep lead shot.}

 

^{https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/112165}

Problem with alot of people that do shooting is alot of them are farmers and others alike and not many that i know would even know how to work a computer. Alot don't even have a computer or mobile.

[kory1986]

God they just want to band every think semi autos now this

[David BASC]

For your information, the following press release has been sent to all shooting media and the national press:

 

BASC STATEMENT ON ATTACKS ON LEAD AMMUNITION

The risks to wildlife and human health from lead ammunition alleged by speakers at the Oxford Lead Symposium, neither of whom have medical expertise, have been exaggerated and distorted by quoting selectively from research, according to the British Association for Shooting and Conservation (BASC).

Estimates from the Oxford Lead Symposium that between 50,000 and 100,000 waterfowl could be affected are so wide as to represent little more than guesswork and the report itself says that “more precise estimates cannot readily be made.” They are based on extrapolation and are not supported by hard evidence. Despite the worst estimates of bird mortality, there is no evidence of an impact at a population scale.

The effects on human health are similarly distorted and the research appears to take no account of recent Swedish data that shows that properly processing game meat eliminates any contamination. The Food Standards Authority has already issued guidance on game meat consumption – similar to that for tuna and swordfish - to significantly reduce any risk.

BASC chairman Alan Jarrett said: “The presence of a risk alone is no justification for a ban. Risks can be managed and reduced by taking the appropriate actions. BASC has seen nothing to justify extending existing regulations covering lead ammunition.

“Policymakers should be guided by reliable science, robust evidence and the principles of better regulation; none of these are present in the reports from the Oxford Lead Symposium.

"BASC will continue to work with its sister organisations on this important issue and will continue to insist on sound evidence and proper process. We will not let our guard drop.”

[panoma1]

David, has this BASC statement been sent to the BBC? Has BASC demanded from the BBC equal treatment and a right to reply via the BBC Website? If they do not comply surely this indicates bias by the BBC and as such the BBC should be the subject of a complaint to the appropriate watchdog, governing body etc?