fortune Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 It is amazing that the posts on this thread are so much the reverse of the Jeremy Corbin thread. I voted no because I just don't think that it will be effective in the slightest and that others have been bombing there with no effect whatsoever. Hundreds of millions of pounds have been spent and wasted in Iraq and Afghanistan and Libya with no good effect at all. These countries have been altered to a great extent and more problems have been created such as the migrant crisis from in Libya and into the Sahara. Every few years the government cut defence spending and a couple of years later want the stuff that was scrapped. What I don't understand is the headlong rush to bomb and take us into another ill thought out war. The millions of pounds that we are going to waste on this would be better spent on targeting the root of the problem and strengthening our home borders and really sending the illegals back straight away and working with the Moslem leaders in this country to avoid home grown terrorists and working online to stop radicals bending the minds of people who are here in society. We really are being overrun by immigrants at an alarming rate. This seems to be being sort of ignored now the election has been and gone. It was a real issue in the run up to the election but nothing is heard about it now. Nothing is seen on the news about the migrants and the camp in Calais and how they are still getting through on a daily basis only to be let go into this country to go and do as they please. What happened to the daily news coverage of the tens of thousands of migrants flooding into Europe. Politicians and journalists are pretty low life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
achosenman Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 And how exactly do you send refugees back to that slaughter house? We are bound by laws, both morally and legal. The refugees are fleeing ISIS etc. Take a look on Ytube at the mass slaughtering being carried out, plus the rapes, the slavery. No human should be made to suffer that. Right now they have no place to go. We helped in starting this mess over 100 years ago. (Sykes–Picot Agreement ) The entire place was a basket case even before we stuck our arrogant imperialistic noses in, approved by Russia and the USA. Atb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 I wonder how many of the pro bombing think that blair was wrong I do, I also think that we have made numerous mistakes since then and we will continue to make mistakes. I see the argument often that we partly helped create Daesh, does that mean having created a monster we should stand back and let it roam unhindered? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjimmer Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 I'm thinking that Cameron thinks we have ways of being more accurate with targeting than other countries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortune Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 And how exactly do you send refugees back to that slaughter house? We are bound by laws, both morally and legal. The refugees are fleeing ISIS etc. Take a look on Ytube at the mass slaughtering being carried out, plus the rapes, the slavery. No human should be made to suffer that. Right now they have no place to go. We helped in starting this mess over 100 years ago. (Sykes–Picot Agreement ) The entire place was a basket case even before we stuck our arrogant imperialistic noses in, approved by Russia and the USA. Atb You appear to be taking this very literally in regard to Syria. Migrants come from every country that is out there. These people were settled in camps in turkey which isn't exactly a hell hole. Turkey wants rid and to put pressure onto Europe for their own political aims at joining the EEU. They have already stated that they will let loads more go unless Europe relaxes visa restrictions for it' citizens to travel into Europe. In this way it helps to offload the Kurdish population that it doesn't want onto Europe. I know a person that works for the border force and they told me that at the present rate of removals from this country that they will still be sending them back if thirty years but that no one knows how many there really are because it has all gotten out of control. The ones that get through the tunnel should be shipped back over to France ( A real hell hole) as that is in the Shengen area. Every week they take a plane load back to Jamaica and only the other day there was a plane load taken back to albania. The true cost to this country financially is unbelievable and it is buckling the structure of this nation just as it is in places like Germany where a village of 110 inhabitants was told that they had to house 1100 migrants. 10 times the local population of Germans. I hope that you have got a spare room to accommodate your share. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 Did you actually listen to what he said? There we have it, most of us simply cannot be bothered to listen to both sides. If anyone truly wants to understand what is going on in the world today then you'll not do much better than spending 10 minutes of your life a day for the next couple of weeks and watching the likes of Noam Chomsky and former US marine Ken O'Keefe speak on these subjects. It is important, our children's futures depend on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
achosenman Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 (edited) You appear to be taking this very literally in regard to Syria. Migrants come from every country that is out there. These people were settled in camps in turkey which isn't exactly a hell hole. Turkey wants rid and to put pressure onto Europe for their own political aims at joining the EEU. They have already stated that they will let loads more go unless Europe relaxes visa restrictions for it' citizens to travel into Europe. In this way it helps to offload the Kurdish population that it doesn't want onto Europe. I know a person that works for the border force and they told me that at the present rate of removals from this country that they will still be sending them back if thirty years but that no one knows how many there really are because it has all gotten out of control. The ones that get through the tunnel should be shipped back over to France ( A real hell hole) as that is in the Shengen area. Every week they take a plane load back to Jamaica and only the other day there was a plane load taken back to albania. The true cost to this country financially is unbelievable and it is buckling the structure of this nation just as it is in places like Germany where a village of 110 inhabitants was told that they had to house 1100 migrants. 10 times the local population of Germans. I hope that you have got a spare room to accommodate your share. I do understand the difference between economic migrant and refugee. The vast increase is predominantly from Syria. I have no problem returning migrants forcibly, but with no paperwork you can't prove where they came from. Another sovereign nation isn't going to accept them without a passport etc. Chucking them out the back of a Herci bird over the channel, isn't an option. Atb Edited December 2, 2015 by achosenman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 It is amazing that the posts on this thread are so much the reverse of the Jeremy Corbin thread. I didn't even click on that thread because I knew what was in store, the reason this one has a bit more of a balanced slant is people like me and KFC posted early on with plausible, logical counter arguments and the Mods and others were gracious enough to read through and absorb it, trying that 5 years ago on somewhere like the AirgunBBS would have simply resulted in being shouted down with invented expressions such as apologist, appeasers, etc. I copied the following off FB a couple of weeks ago and can't be bothered to re-articulate it properly (which I know I'm capable of ) I knew there was a condition affecting some people without their being aware of it but hadn't realised it had a name : It's called "confirmation bias". Once someone has made up their own mind about something, they usually filter out any conflicting information that makes them question their own ability make a rational decision. They can't "convince" themselves that they could be so stupid. It's a defense mechanism. It's why dumb people don't realize they are dumb and crazy people don't know they are crazy. The reason we don't have many more people question governmental policies all over the Western world is because we don't get to hear the other side speaking and presenting their case on an equal footing, more often than not they're simply portrayed as deluded, socialist, gullible, fools, etc, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 I do not believe that we as ordinary people can make a decision on to bomb or not to bomb based on the information that government allows us to know or what they allow the media to report.Don't be naive enough to think information is not highly censored from every angle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
achosenman Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 Not quite. In psychology and cognitive science, confirmation bias (or confirmatory bias) is a tendency to search for or interpret information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions It comes up a lot in CRM training. Atb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 I do understand the difference between economic migrant and refugee. The vast increase is predominantly from Syria. I have no problem returning migrants forcibly, but with no paperwork you can't prove where they came from. Another sovereign nation isn't going to accept them without a passport etc. Chucking them out the back of a Herci bird over the channel, isn't an option. Atb You say they mostly come from Syria. How do you know for sure if they have no papers/passport? You say you have no problem returning them forcibly,but cannot do that that if they have no paperwork. How did they get here in the first place then? Are we not a sovereign nation? Why should we accept them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisjpainter Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 I do understand the difference between economic migrant and refugee. The vast increase is predominantly from Syria. I have no problem returning migrants forcibly, but with no paperwork you can't prove where they came from. Another sovereign nation isn't going to accept them without a passport etc. Chucking them out the back of a Herci bird over the channel, isn't an option. Atb Not quite true. To Europe, this is the the case, but if you look at the figures for the UK, it's a slightly different story: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
achosenman Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 (edited) Not quite. I said I had no problem forcibly returning migrants, not refugees. That doesn't mean I have an answer on how to deal with migrants with no papers. Perhaps the Australian way might be worth a try. I think there is a confusion about migrants in France and refugees fleeing in tens of thousands who were forced out. The aid agency's directly involved, have said they are from Syria. I am not in a position to argue, I seriously doubt anyone on PW is either. I am not talking about migrants claiming asylum as a ruse, as the graphs potentially demonstrate. We are part of the EU (and I'd like to change that) so we have to step up on the refugee problem. I thought this is a Syria thread, not a UKIP are great, close the borders we're full go away thread. Atb Edited December 2, 2015 by achosenman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Kelly Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 I do not believe that we as ordinary people can make a decision on to bomb or not to bomb based on the information that government allows us to know or what they allow the media to report.Don't be naive enough to think information is not highly censored from every angle. Unfortunately that card was played by Blair and we were forced to take on trust that there was more than could be revealed that compelled us to go to war. We all know how that worked out, so governments now need to put together a better argument to justify their decisions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandgun Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 I wonder how many of the pro bombing think that blair was wrong I'm wondering what that has got to do with it? Atb Unfortunately that card was played by Blair and we were forced to take on trust that there was more than could be revealed that compelled us to go to war. We all know how that worked out, so governments now need to put together a better argument to justify their decisions. that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FOXHUNTER1 Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 We cant just sit back and do nothing. Im just waiting for a major attack to happen here . They need exterminating , like cancer they continue to grow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salop Matt Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 Am of the opionion that the airstrikes are a bit of a waste of time without boots on the ground and another situation simlar to Afghanistan. Just going over there dropping bombs, while yes will kill some IS members but its also likely to drum up support world wide for IS. Just Bombing seems a poor half measure, either do it propperly and go in as a multi national force and do a propper job with a good future set out or save the money and spend it on defence and policing back here in the UK. ATB Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortune Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 What I am trying to get over is the fact that personally I feel very sorry for the plight that these poor people find themselves in. It cant be much fun roughing it out in some mid European country with winter coming on. BUT on the other hand I just cant see why it is so imperative that we have the planes waiting on the runway at Akrotiri ready to go as soon as the vote is taken. If we know of the whereabouts of a terrorist leader in Syria then all we have to do is tell the Americans or the French and let them do the business. That is what we had almost certainly been doing up until now. We have bombed these opposition forces and rabble for many years in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya along with all of the other allied forces and it hasn’t made a jots worth of difference. Remember how quickly we mopped up Saddams army that was supposed to be well armed, trained and equipped and yet with all of the bombs and missiles we have hardly made a dent against IS. We along with the Americans and a load of other nationalities didn’t crush the Mujahideen as the Russians before didn’t.We have monitoring stations out in the med that are listening to speech and dialect patterns and gaining intelligence all of the time so are we trying to cover up things that are going on behind the scenes somehow by joining the big boys club. I don’t trust ole Dave and that slug Osbourne. I don’t trust them as far as anyone can spit. The bad thing is that the politicians don’t get hurt in all of this and no one ever gets taken to task for the crazy and bad decisions that they take and it is our servicemen that get killed and maimed as the pawns in this deadly game. A few months ago Putin was a devil for his actions in Chechnya and a few months later he is invited to the table for dinner with the French as a good ole boy and an ally in the fight against IS. All he wants is a port on the med so that his fleet doesn’t have to go through the Bosphorous straights. Memories can be very short. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 Unfortunately that card was played by Blair and we were forced to take on trust that there was more than could be revealed that compelled us to go to war. We all know how that worked out, so governments now need to put together a better argument to justify their decisions. so you are of the opinion that dave is being open and honest in his intentions,and we are being given the full facts. this from a man who a couple of years ago wanted to bomb assad to help those nice rebels,who I believe we now call is.he will have the best justification if this goes the way of Iraq and afghan in it was parliament who made the decision.by which time he will be like tony well away from it. air strikes alone have won no wars the last we won was the falklands and that was conventional warfare.12 years of bombing alone in this region has produced nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Kelly Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 so you are of the opinion that dave is being open and honest in his intentions,and we are being given the full facts. this from a man who a couple of years ago wanted to bomb assad to help those nice rebels,who I believe we now call is.he will have the best justification if this goes the way of Iraq and afghan in it was parliament who made the decision.by which time he will be like tony well away from it. air strikes alone have won no wars the last we won was the falklands and that was conventional warfare.12 years of bombing alone in this region has produced nothing. Not sure how you came to that conclusion from my post? I don't imagine we're told a fraction of the real story and don't believe the case being put has anything to do with the real motivation. I am more concerned really that we are doing exactly what ISIS want us to do! They provoke with the attacks on western democracies because they want us to react and as has been shown by the rise of ISIS, our actions in Iraq and Afghanistan have given them exactly the support they want. Bizarre but true. It's all so crazy and counter intuitive that it's difficult to grasp. I'm all for bombing the oil fields they control and trying to stifle them by cutting off their funding, but I seriously doubt that bombing Raqqa will achieve anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 Not sure how you came to that conclusion from my post? I don't imagine we're told a fraction of the real story and don't believe the case being put has anything to do with the real motivation. I am more concerned really that we are doing exactly what ISIS want us to do! They provoke with the attacks on western democracies because they want us to react and as has been shown by the rise of ISIS, our actions in Iraq and Afghanistan have given them exactly the support they want. Bizarre but true. It's all so crazy and counter intuitive that it's difficult to grasp. I'm all for bombing the oil fields they control and trying to stifle them by cutting off their funding, but I seriously doubt that bombing Raqqa will achieve anything. I read it that you were saying that since Blair government had to be open and up front. If that was not your intention then I apologise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil w Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 In, every continent the hate tribe are there. It;s just too late, we have missed the boat. That they got on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Kelly Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 I read it that you were saying that since Blair government had to be open and up front. If that was not your intention then I apologise Just that since the Blair Iraq WMD fiasco government can no longer just say that we know more than we can tell you, and you must trust us. They need to make a better case than that as our trust has gone. I don't imagine for a moment that they'll ever tell us even a fraction of what they knwo, or their real motivations, but they have to do a better job of making a case for war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun4860 Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 Air strikes don't work..... If they did we would have lost the second World War... From the video's that we have seen they blow up an old truck now and again, the odd building......sometimes the odd middle ranking ISIS member, but against this type of enemy, bombs don't work and to be honest putting boots on the floor will struggle to end this as well. IS will just melt into the local population till everyone claps their hands and says what a great job they did and we come home, Meanwhile ISIS will plan and execute terror attacks around the world. I don't have a plan to end it but when America/Russia/France and probably a few others have been bombing for weeks with no great end in sight I can't see how our 12 bombers will make any difference at all? It's Willy waving I'm afraid Hopefully someone some day will come up with an answer but bombing isn't it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoot and be safe Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 The vote went in favour. Who knows what will happen now. One thing for sure, it's going to get worse long before it gets better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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