fenboy Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 I am going to have to get some of this ballistic modelling software and take it down the marsh to see if I can kill a goose with it , It will save me a fortune in cartridges if it works , what gauge memory stick do I need and is the software waterproof ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 Sorry it's a lot more than choke cartridge and gun And computer generated programs are a guide - yes, a very good guide in many cases, or I wouldn't waste my time on them Do you take into account ambient temperature - yes, and ambient pressure, calculated from first principles using the composition / partial pressures of the components of the particular gas mix under consideration - I can model the behaviour of a rifle bullet or shotgun blast in 100% Helium if you'd like me to cartridge temperature - irrelevant to the models I usually use - a simplification of final muzzle velocity incorporates the properties of combustion / powder / shell construction well enough for most models wind chill - irrelevant - wind chill is the temperature drop perceived by a human in response to the movement of air - it doesn't affect internal or external ballistics clean or once fired gun - no - unlikely to be significant speed of bird - depends on what's being modelled - I have some comments relating to shot strings which I can post elsewhere if anyone's interested height above sea level - yes, see above - incorporated into general environmental properties as a component which gives the partial pressures of the gases comprising the modelled atmosphere many other factors - certainly, including humidity, roundness of shot, hardness of shot, composition of shot (I could model ping-pong balls or pellets made of solid gold if you wanted), calculated and interpolated drag functions (i.e. do you use an approximation of G1 for deformed pellets or interpolate GS for small pellets?) which are modelled over all useful velocities (the drag function of an individual pellet changes dependent on its velocity / orientation) Sorry again but I'm with a vote of experience over theory and you defiantly have to re learn a lot when you shoot steel As for your wounded birds flapping your not on target and either shooting out one wing or a tip of one causing the bird to fall out of the sky - doesn't explain the holes in the body of the bird where the shot went in but didn't adequately penetrate, but thank you for sharing your theory Anyway just my thoughts Tin hat on - no need for tin hats, but PM me if you'd like to see some computer code. The above is not the BS you lot seem to think it is - it's professionally developed ballistic modelling software. All the best Of Well that's good to know there is no difference between a clean and dirty barrel And wind chill only chills me not the gun barrel and now I can go safely with the knowlage that according to a computer programmed by a expert my gun and cartridge choke combination will perform exactly the same on the first of March shooting doves in shorts in Africa to shooting ptarmigan in Sweden at -18 in November Obviously there is a comfort in knowing the heat haze from the barrels will be the same and that the cold powder will ignite the same as the warm powder or should I not put them in the shade It dosent explain lack of penetration untill you think about it the penetration was adequate to break a wing however as you were off target you caught the bird with the edge of the pattern the worst pellets Try backing off on lead a tad and you'll be fine Alk the best. Of Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
washwildfowler Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 Mr Neutron, what do you do for a living? What's the **** has that got to do with the thread ***. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stevo Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 when shooting steel neutron you need to centre your birds , like OF says your catching them on the outer part of the pattern , and I would bet my middle testicle its the back of the pattern . like I have said before , give me a shout and I will be more than happy to come and have a couple of hrs with you and show you just how good steel is on pigeons , I like 5s or 6s in steel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Mat Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 What's the **** has that got to do with the thread ***. Curiosity really, I wondered if he had something to do with ballistics given all his theoretical stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E.w. Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 Isn't it obvious? It's experience - that thing you all keep telling me I don't have and are always going on about. Steel 3's have worked and killed the geese I've shot with them, mostly cleanly. Steel 5's have never yet cleanly killed the pigeons I've fired them at. If all this experience is so important, why do you all ridicule me for paying attention to it? Either it's important, in which case you can all push off because I'm simply recounting my experience, or it's not, in which case you can all start listening a bit more carefully to the theory and giving it the respect it deserves. What's it going to be chaps? I for one wouldn't ridicule you as you make some valid points, it pays to listen to people as you can learn off anyone but this forum has several world class experts on here and you have just come across them I'm sorry to say it but it's there way or no way, no other persons opinion counts for anything. It's what spoils this forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zapp Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 It is unfortunate that after I've had to post a warning on this thread about some pretty childish namecalling, it is being dragged into exactly the same mudslinging that saw the "20 bore cartridges for pigeon" thread locked. This is unfortunate as there are some good and useful posts in among the sniping and rubbish. I dont want to have to lock this one too, but if the personal digs and un-constructive posts continue, that is what will happen, and then we will turn our attention to the content of certain posts to take decisions on whether they were in keeping with the ethos of the forum and the terms and conditions of membership. To those members who have posted on here and sent us messages decrying the treatment that has been dished out to some members by others lately, please know that we are aware of what is and has been happening and we are making note of it all, and will act in the interests of the forum if it continues. We cant, however, monitor every post and thread so please continue, as in this case, to use the report button to bring it to our attention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beretta28g Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 I have shot duck with 7.5 shot in steel and they are dead when they fall. I have shot geese with number 5 steel shot and it's been dead when it's come down(sack of mud style). I have also had geese that have been hit with 3 42gram BB 3 1/2" magnums that when it came down was a very strong runner. It depends on the birds range and presentation. To be fair I do believe with steel pattern is more important than it is with lead. Just out of interest why are you using steel on pigeons anyway, isn't lead good enough? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenboy Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 I have shot duck with 7.5 shot in steel and they are dead when they fall. I have shot geese with number 5 steel shot and it's been dead when it's come down(sack of mud style). I have also had geese that have been hit with 3 42gram BB 3 1/2" magnums that when it came down was a very strong runner. It depends on the birds range and presentation. To be fair I do believe with steel pattern is more important than it is with lead. Just out of interest why are you using steel on pigeons anyway, isn't lead good enough? I use steel so I can sell the birds to bird of prey keepers for twice the price I get from the game dealers if shot with lead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beretta28g Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 Fair enough I don't shoot enough pigeons to warrant selling any, I always eat mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6.5x55SE Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 Well this is only my Personal opinion But in previous Threads on Pigeon Watch. Mr Neutron 619 and a couple of his friends resorted to personal insults and name calling. Yes I hold my hands up and fought Fire with Fire as they say But never have I felt the need to go Crying to Administration/Moderators. I applaud you all for keeping the Forum/Threads/Posts and Members in check. I do know some who have offered Very Good advice with many years of experience myself I have over Forty years Wildfowling and Deer Stalking and would not want post the large number of Geese and Deer I've shot over the years for fear of coming across as a Big Headed know all a Liar or Both. Doe's all this make me a Expert !!!!!! Definitely Not but shooting Deer and Geese daily at the worst weekly does give me plenty of first hand experience of what you can and cannot achieve with Shotgun and Rifle. For me personally when people of lesser experience ask questions and I offer good sound advice and along comes a person with hardly any experience putting you down then I'm I find as other experienced Poster's it a very Bitter Pill to swallow. I hope this post comes across as intended as is NOT deemed confrontationally. Happy New Year to one and All Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjimmer Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 when shooting steel neutron you need to centre your birds , Doesn't that also apply to any other shot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zapp Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 Yes I hold my hands up and fought Fire with Fire as they say But never have I felt the need to go Crying to Administration/Moderators. To be clear, the complaints we have received about this thread and others have not come from anyone involved. They have come from a number of other members who are tired of this sort of thing happening on the forum and have asked us to act. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6.5x55SE Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 To be clear, the complaints we have received about this thread and others have not come from anyone involved. They have come from a number of other members who are tired of this sort of thing happening on the forum and have asked us to act. Okay Thank You Best regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E.w. Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 (edited) It matters not how long anyone of us have been shooting all should and are welcome on pigeon watch to contribute to threads they show interest in our behaviour stops them very people from sharing. We are lucky to have such a forum that is FREE to use, when we show disregard to others you are showing disregard to the moderators on this forum that work had to keep it going, so at the very least lets all start with a clean sheet for 2016. What Zapp is saying I think is take a step back before you post and think on, best of luck to one and all have a happy new year. Regards, E.w. Edited January 5, 2016 by E.w. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stevo Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 (edited) Doesn't that also apply to any other shot? steel has a much shorter shot string than lead and so requires less respect ,on given target , this becomes apparent more so when shooting med/long range crossers with steel ( well med/long range for steel that is ) Edited January 5, 2016 by stevo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muncher Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 Nothing wrong with a good heated argument,just keep personal insults out, too much back patting and we might as well be American . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6.5x55SE Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 When I first used Steel I to thought it was RUBBISH. Now without wishes to bore Members I do a lot of Coastal Wildfowling mainly after Pink's I personally use 36gms Steel 3" 2 or 3 shot in my 3.5 chambered gun and know 100% if and its a Big if I put that Load and shot up front of a Pink ( Tin Hat ) at 60yrd that Goose is going to walk of the Marsh with me. This year I started doing a bit of Pigeon shooting again to try and help my Grandson gain more shooting experience for the coming Wildfowling season. Someone gave me a 100 20ga 24 Steel 5 shot. Using 1/4 and 1/2 chokes I used the Steel for the first decoyed shot and lead for the second shot . What a shock and Big surprise I got over Decoys the steel was like shooting a Rifle those that I hit was only fit for Fox bait. So I ended up using lead first shot and Steel for the longer second shot as already been stated by another member whilst Duck shooting with the Steel a surprise Goose/Geese appeared and cleanly killed by the Steel. Even with lead the fact is if you don't hit your intended Quarry in the right place we will miss or injure also what works for one sometimes doesn't work for other's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjimmer Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 (edited) steel has a much shorter shot string than lead and so requires less respect ,on given target , this becomes apparent more so when shooting med/long range crossers with steel ( well med/long range for steel that is ) Very informative. Edited January 5, 2016 by rjimmer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 To be clear, the complaints we have received about this thread and others have not come from anyone involved. They have come from a number of other members who are tired of this sort of thing happening on the forum and have asked us to act. I imagine some of the complaints have been aimed towards me. As far as the locked thread goes, I do get a little annoyed when I have people who have little experience start insinuating that I am immoral. This is another thread where more rubbish has been spouted, and people are just expected to keep swallowing it. It seems more and more on this forum that as soon as people start disagreeing, others start running to teacher and threads get locked prematurely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stevo Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 Very infomative. Lead shot, which is easily deformed upon firing, develops a relatively long, large-diameter shot string. Steel shot, because it is three times harder than lead, stays round, and develops a shot string that is 50-60% shorter and 60-70% narrower than lead. Or, looking at it another way, steel has a much more precise kill zone than you'd get with lead shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6.5x55SE Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 100% Agree Stevo and that's one of the reasons people Can't or Don't think Steel can cleanly kill at range Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjimmer Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 (edited) This theory about deformed shot not flying straight makes sense until you talk to people who pattern their Hevishot home loads where the shot is all shapes. They reckon it patterns tighter than lead. Pattern plates aren't crossing at 40mph though. Edited January 5, 2016 by rjimmer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenboy Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 Lead shot, which is easily deformed upon firing, develops a relatively long, large-diameter shot string. Steel shot, because it is three times harder than lead, stays round, and develops a shot string that is 50-60% shorter and 60-70% narrower than lead. Or, looking at it another way, steel has a much more precise kill zone than you'd get with lead shot. And to get that correct kill zone at the range you want to be shooting to is the reason us wildfowlers especially have a thing about tight after market chokes. Despite what some believe steel will kill 50 yards all day long if you are getting a sufficient pattern at that range . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 Back to the topic. I personally think choke is critical to successful goose shooting with steel. For me, the tighter, the better. Years ago I used half choke with steel on the geese. At 50 yards and over I really struggled. Now I use the tightest chokes I can, and I have faired far better, especially on anything that is 'up there'. I disagree and so does the pattern plate at said 50 yards patterns are well adequate although energy per pellet and shooters luck / skill comes into play I also know a good fowler who shoots number 5 steel on geese duck everything just respects his range But then we all have our own experiences Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.