Bry-M Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 Thought some of you may find this interesting. In September 2015 I purchased a two bedroom bungalow which sits above a double garage. I'd only had the opportunity to view it once very briefly so commissioned a full building survey to have it checked out. The garage only extends to half the width of the house, a couple of houses on the street had knocked through and opened up the other half and I asked the surveyor to have a look to see if this was feasible. In the report he commented on the garage walls, floor, door, the boiler which was in there, the fuseboard etc The only thing that wasn't even mentioned was the ceiling. After buying the property I need quotes for a full rewire and the first thing that the electrician asked was....'is that ceiling asbestos?' I checked the report and saw no mention of it but decided to ring a few companies for prices to get it tested. Turns out dealing with asbestos is a license to print money! I was being charged £90+ for me to bring a sample to them and it would then be a 7 day turnaround before the results were known. Turns out all those companies are just middlemen, they just send the sample off to a lab which you can do directly yourself. Cost me £30 and the result was given to me within 2 hours! The ceiling was Asbestos insulation board made from white and brown asbestos. I complained to the building surveyor but was met with 'if you read the small print all houses may contain asbestos and it can only be verified by testing which I am not qualified to do'. He also wasn't qualified to talk about the gas, electrics etc yet that didn't stop him telling me about them, providing estimates for replacement etc So, dismissing my complaint I took it to the ombudsman. My argument was that he should have seen and suspected it was asbestos and recommended I get it tested. If a spark can spot it straight away surely he should have? As it would have affected my offer on the house had I known. To cut a long story short I wanted the fee for the survey refunded, the cost of the removal of the asbestos and the removal, storage and refitting of the powered garage door. (the asbestos removal people required it) I had to supply 3 quotes for the above which including refunding of the fee came to £5k. That all started on 25th september. A few days ago I received this reply: The main issue of your complaint is that after moving into your property you discovered that the internal garage roof was made from asbestos boards. You consider that ...(removed)... should have identified this within the Building Survey completed prior to your purchasing the property.You purchased the property on 11 September 2015 after the completion of the Building Survey on 1 July 2015. It was only at this time that you identified that the garage ceiling was made up of boards containing asbestos. You consider that had this been identified within the Building Survey, you could have taken action to test this prior to completing the purchase of the property.You have provided a copy of a certificate of bulk fibre analysis completed by Airborne Environmental Consultants Ltd. dated 25 September 2015. This states that it has tested a sample from within the garage insulation and found it to contain two forms of asbestos (Chrysotile and Amosite). We therefore accept that asbestos is present within the garage.The Building Survey contained the following information in relation to the garage:“ 5.01 GarageThere is an integral double garage (at basement level), with brick walls and a solid concrete floor. There us a double metal vehicle door at the front, which appears dated. There were no major defects apparent. There is electric power and light in the garage.”..(name removed).. has responded to you to say that it is unable to test the materials during a visual inspection. It would therefore have no ability to confirm that there was asbestos present in the garage during its visual inspection. You dispute this saying that the asbestos boards are clearly visible on the ceiling in the garage. Both parties have provided photographs showing the garage ceiling. We can see that there is boarding to the ceiling. While asbestos can only be determined under laboratory conditions if it is suspected during an inspection this should be reported. Having looked at the photographs you have provided we are of the view the white/ grey ceiling should have alerted the surveyor to the fact that the ceiling may contain asbestos materials and this should have been highlighted within the report. The location of the ceiling boards should also have alerted the surveyor to the potential of asbestos. Asbestos was often used in garage ceilings due to its fire resistance qualities. We are of the view there has been a shortfall in reporting.You have requested that ..(name removed).. covers the cost of removing the asbestos in addition to a refund of the fee paid for the survey. You have provided quotes of £3,495 plus VAT from Environmental Surveying & Remediation Ltd, £3,480 plus VAT from BLS Asbestos and £3560 plus VAT from AIB Solutions Ltd for the removal of the asbestos from the garage. There are also additional quotes for the cost of the removal and installation of the garage doors. The most competitive quote totalling £240 including VAT.The established basis by the Courts for damages in cases like this is Diminution in Market Value (DMV). This is essentially the difference between what you did pay and what you would have paid, had you been aware of the omission complained about. This is influenced by several factors, including the type of defect, prevailing market conditions and any previous price negotiations. We have to have regard to DMV.Asbestos in good condition can be left and its removal is not necessary. However, well publicised health issues surrounding asbestos means many people do not wish to share their homes with a potentially dangerous material and will therefore want it removed. You say you had asked the surveyor about the feasibility of knocking down the wall of the garage and extending it. It seems clear you had intentions of undertaking works to the garage meaning had you been made aware of the potential of asbestos it is likely you would have sought a reduction in the purchase price. Taking into account the costs incurred in removing the asbestos we consider a payment of £4000 to be reasonable. Well, £4k is better than nothing! My faith in building surveyors is now nil. For next house purchase i don't think I'll bother. Moral of the story, fight the system! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 We had exactly the same thing on a house a couple of years ago. It was Amosite, brown asbestos, but the house owner just shrugged his shoulders and paid for removal. I know a few people who have died from asbestos so you have to treat it with respect. Well done on getting something back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flynny Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 And that my friend , is exactly why we pay for surveyors and structural engineers reports, It's all one big ***** covering exercise, They tell me ( in a report) that a 6" x 4" I beam will suffice , but then the beam bows/ bends etc etc and causes brickwork to crack etc etc, It's on his toes then , Not mine lol At least you got sorted mate, the works will be done with little cost to your own pocket Flynny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 Bloody well done, glad you went to the Ombudsman! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
team tractor Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 Asbestos is £400 a ton to dispose of. Buy a suit and mask and save some money Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLuke Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 Asbestos is £400 a ton to dispose of. Buy a suit and mask and save some money PW award for the worst advice ever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 Asbestos is £400 a ton to dispose of. Buy a suit and mask and save some money Are you serious? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 Bry-M - well done - bit of a result. I have complained to the Ombudsman a number of times - mainly in vain. They never seem to question what other bodies say, if the other body is a Government Department. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digger Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 Was the surveyor RICS affiliated ? Don't do the asbestos with a hammer and a mask from B and Q ! Area needs encapsulation, you will be amazed at what the removal company bring with them. Good mate of mine does surveys and removals - the service costs on his vacuum alone are horrendously expensive. It's a job for the professional but you know that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flynny Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 Was the surveyor RICS affiliated ? Don't do the asbestos with a hammer and a mask from B and Q ! Area needs encapsulation, you will be amazed at what the removal company bring with them. Good mate of mine does surveys and removals - the service costs on his vacuum alone are horrendously expensive. It's a job for the professional but you know that. Correct P3 masks as a minimum, lol , tents and air extractu etc etc TT , It's the brown stuff not cement based corrugated sheets, as on a garage roof ?... There are different rules regarding domestic and commercial, Just Get LARS to do it, they have the training and licences etc, ( LARS= licensed asbestos removal specialists) Flynny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crowdie2013 Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 The surveyor should have at least made comment and informed you of `suspected asbestos requiring further investigation etc`; further to this, given you had asked him to comment on the feasibility of conversion, this is disappointing as this particular area should have been thoroughly inspected. Im a Chartered Building surveyor (MRICS) and get involved in disputes/arbitration etc; the client doesn't want a report with no substance and full with caveats throughout (basically get out clauses for the surveyor should they miss something) however, theres a definite increase in disputes/claims and many are folk playing the blame and claim card. I think your fully entitled to have followed this course of action in this instance, and hope this surveyors balls up doesn't give all us Chartered Surveyors a bad name!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 Some of the asbestous sheets aren't so bad, some are only 1% asbetous or a lot less. The real dodgy stuff is the stuff they sprayed/painted on structural concrete pillars, usually has to be taken of with grinders. That is the full on cover whole room in 2 layers of plastic and 3 showers to go throu after u've been exposed. Not the best advice to tackle it urself unless u know wot type it is and how strong and can dispose of it safely. But it could possibly be done urself depending on the type. Be plenty of holes dug around coutryside where farmers have got rid of it, and are still living to tell the tale. I've got an old shed roof that i suspect could be aspestous and will probably just do it myself depnding how much disposal costs are (might be cheaper just getting pros in for all time to strip roof) as long as going gentle and not making it 'airbourne' generally pretty safe. We got a ####ing once while working in OZ for chucking sheets of a 4 story building into the middle, were meant to go up an down with it in scissor lifts, but were on piece work so thought we'd make some extra cash. Was very weak stuff and in middle of no where Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 Asbestos cement roofing sheets are another matter but the thought of trying to tackle brown asbestos sheets yourself is just plain bloody dangerous. There are plenty of examples of children ultimately dying from the asbestos fibres their dads brought home from work on their overalls. It's potentially lethal in small amounts and once it's inside you it's just a ticking time bomb. To suggest anything other than getting a proper removal firm in and have the resulting job tested by the HSE afterwards and passed as clean is crazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
team tractor Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 (edited) PW award for the worst advice everWhy is it? Someone has to do it so buy the correct equipment and dispose of correctly. My dad used to cut it for a living in his younger days and I have friends that remove it for a living. I always understood the blue was the worst and almost everything in your house is asbestos and it's shocking what is. Artex, floor tiles, insulation, soffits, ceilings , gutters, brake pads, most are 1% asbestos. Edited February 14, 2016 by team tractor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 (edited) Why is it? Someone has to do it so buy the correct equipment and dispose of correctly. Save a fortune Because if someone who knows what they are doing and who owns the correct equipment does the job there is less chance of people dying from lung cancer. Do you really not appreciate how dangerous this stuff can be? I've had friends die from asbestosis 30yrs after coming into contact. Once it's in you it's a death sentence Edited February 14, 2016 by sitsinhedges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digger Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 (edited) Not feasible. licences needed, correct training, ppe costs etc. Edited February 14, 2016 by digger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
100milesaway Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 This sort of use of asbestos was very widespread in the 70's you may find the facia on the garage is asbestos and also the soffits and gutter barge boards could be.I would personally have been surprised if it wasn't an asbestos ceiling in the garage as at that time it was the best insulation for the price. .All the ceilings in my bungalow had asbestos flakes in the artexing, again a very common thing in that era. I had the ceilings lowered and reboarded and skimmed just in case., but having said all that all the 40 odd bungalows here are the same and most of the residents haven't gone to the same lengths as me and it has not affected the price of them . from Auntie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
team tractor Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 (edited) The one thing I admit I hate seeing is it being dumped. I have loads of gutter dumped by my house and I have an idea who dumped it . No ones interested in shifting it as its on private land. Pay to dispose like all rubbish. Edited February 14, 2016 by team tractor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banger123 Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 Fair play for getting something back from the slopie shouldered good for nothing thief!! If he was unable to even recognise that you should get these materials tested then in reality he should be struck off and not be allowed to practice. As to the other advice about doing it yourself please ignor it. It is one nasty death!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLuke Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 (edited) Why is it? Someone has to do it so buy the correct equipment and dispose of correctly. My dad used to cut it for a living in his younger days and I have friends that remove it for a living. I always understood the blue was the worst and almost everything in your house is asbestos and it's shocking what is. Artex, floor tiles, insulation, soffits, ceilings , gutters, brake pads, most are 1% asbestos. Some people are beyond me. I'm not even going to begin rationalising why the average person shouldn't remove asbestos without full and appropriate PPE and procedure designed for asbestos removal. The idea that the average person could undertake this is entirely ridiculous. I assume these are the same people who would complete an organ transplant because they own a sharp kitchen knife and vacuum. Edited February 14, 2016 by LondonLuke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul T Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 That really is poor performance from the Surveyor - missing possible asbestos is an absolute cardinal sin in my book! Fortunately your Sparky was on the ball and picked it up straight away. Asbestos is no laughing subject - I personally know people that have died as a result of being in contact with the stuff. I used to live a few streets from the asbestos factory in Armley, Leeds https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armley_asbestos_disaster andas a kid we used to dig up the waste in the yard and use it as air rifle targets . I'm still here so far, but I know some from that area that aren't . My grandmother lived only two streets behind the factory and her house (as the entire neighbourhood) was subject to a massive deep clean a few years ago. My other grandparents lived mid way near the right point (see the area on wiki) and we used to live in Aviary Road right in the middle. The guy that lived in my house was also a sparky who died from mesothelioma. To be honest if that hadn't killed him it was only a matter of time before his dodgy wiring did - the electrics in my house are a nightmare! Stay safe gents and get to know the identifying signs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flynny Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 (edited) Some people are beyond me. I'm not even going to begin rationalising why the average person shouldn't remove asbestos without full and appropriate PPE and procedure designed for asbestos removal. The idea that the average person could undertake this is entirely ridiculous. I assume these are the same people who would complete an organ transplant because they own a sharp kitchen knife and vacuum. Correct, It used to be standard practice that , labourers could damp down old vinyl AC floor tiles and remove with white suits and P3 masks , double bag and tape up the bags, and get disposed in the appropriate manner, (RAMS in place and tool box talk first) As of April last year, ACm's must be removed by LARS, Domestic ie a garage roof can be removed by the house owner and the council will pick it up , as long as it is wrapped in plastic and taped/sealed up??? Flynny Edited February 14, 2016 by flynny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisheruk Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 Asbestos is £400 a ton to dispose of. Buy a suit and mask and save some money TT wrong advice. Don't even consider doing it yourself. You could end up contaminating the house and yourself. No certificate upon completion and no self respecting contractor would touch your property. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
team tractor Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 TT wrong advice. Don't even consider doing it yourself. You could end up contaminating the house and yourself. No certificate upon completion and no self respecting contractor would touch your property. I understood it to be sheets when I first commented that's why I said that sorry . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisheruk Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 I understood it to be sheets when I first commented that's why I said that sorry . TT noted ATB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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