Spaniel V HWV

[fishbone]

Hi

 

Im looking at a first gundog. I want it to be suitable for pigeon shooting i.e. from a hide and wild fowling too should I get involved more with that. I'm stuck a bit. I really like the Hungarian wire haired vizsla which is, I admit something different but I've heard many good things about them. The other dog I like is the springer spaniel. I like labs but just don't fancy one. Nothing at all against them but they are not on my list right now.

 

Can any of you more experienced dog handlers give me any advice here on what direction I should take. I have 3 kids (12,9,5) wife who is at home during the day and we are all keen. Can Springers make good retrieving dogs? Any feedback is appreciated.

 

Dan

[PERCE]

Get a labrador.

[neillfrbs]

my springer bitch ,does the lot. will fetch ducks and geese out the severn ,flush game ,be a peg dog if i want her to ,and track blood for deer

its all how you train them .

[cocker boy]

Get a labrador.

100% agree. Don't get a dog on what it looks like, its a recipe for disaster . It usually goes like " I like the look of so and so and the wife and kids do too". Then so and so proves difficult to train and is unsuitable for the shooting the owner has. It ends up with the dog stopping at home and years later dying, at best, a part trained expensive mistake. Get a Labrador.

[fenboy]

Get a labrador.

 

The correct answer.

You may not fancy one but it is the correct dog for the work you want it to do , the HWV like all of that type of dog are not the ideal first dog for an inexperienced trainer .

I owned a spaniel and when I decided to start wildfowling 3 years ago the first thing I did was went out and brought a labrador .

Edited February 25, 2016 by fenboy

[Konnie]

What you want is a tool to do a job, pick the one that is most likely to achieve this. it's not a fashion item.

 

Labrador.

[WGD]

I have four springers at the moment, I love the breed and their versatility.

 

Get a Labrador.

Edited February 25, 2016 by WGD

[pontbeck]

Pretty conclusive then

[felly100]

Labrador!

[kent]

Get a labrador.

This is the type of dog you need but it could be any Retriever. It's just labs of working lines are easier and cheaper to obtain

 

Hpr breeds are meant to run off and cover area spaniels are essentially shorter range flushing dogs. Fine they are both capable of retrieving but they ain't selected for thier willingness to settle down at your side for a day in the hide

 

It's a bit like backing a fit strong heavy weight boxer to win the London marathon. Chances are it will be some lanky string bean that win why? Because they are made for it. Sure the heavy will run all the way and will have a good heart and competitive spirit but he will also be knocking on ten stone more

[scolopax]

HWV are the new Labrador...easy to train, but point and don't get fat

 

got to say though the advice to get a labrador is pretty much spot on, they are popular for a reason

[evo]

I have four springers at the moment, I love the breed and their versatility.

 

Get a Labrador.

:lol: ,, brilliant

[Sambaker1993]

It's all right saying get a lab I have one of each but it all depends on your personality which will suit the dog best to you I have found but I'm far from an expert but I do want another springer already hahah

[loriusgarrulus]

We have a Springer now, but when the kids were younger we had a Labrador. The Labrador was easier to train and better with children.

[TONY R]

Labrador Retriever Will do what you say you are wanting a dog for in your post. But life is too short i mean that fat lass from school you know the one who knew all the answers in domestic science lerssons. did you ever consider dating her .

 

As a first gundog i think made two great breed choices Springers from good working lines are ideal dogs and will only come second to the Afore mentioned Labrador in respect of the Labradors more suitable for water coat, and a marginal potentialy moot point swiming ability advantage. .

In all other respects the springer is equal if not superior is faster and has more stamina and is a great all round shooting dog.

 

But i the HWV is the way to go for you, remember are going to have the dog 10 to 15 years

You are not going to have that many dogs in your lifetime and thats if you run four dogs all the time like i generaly do, if i could turn back the clock in my life one of the true regrets in shooting is not running Versatile breeds sooner, they are that good when they are trained. There are some great HPR trainers out there who can help with any glitches you might encounter, during your training, they are not labs or springers and i did make a few mistakes with them, but overall i still have an HPR and always will do, if you want one dog its the waqy to go.

GSPs GWPs Vizlas munsterlanders etc are true versatile gundogs and in some respects are far superior to the general breeds on comes accross.

Take wildfowling on a more open marsh where you shoot splashes or wait for geese, a Typical GWP or GSP For example will be out retrieve and back home with that long retrieve before the labrador as waddled its way over the first creek .

The HWV has the coat to help compared to say a weimeraner vizla or GSP which can strugle in some weather conditions, the HWV allthough not my personal choice i would have a GWP myself are a great dog and i feel from what i have seen are a nice dog for deer should you chose to start stalking. Get the HWVof the two breeds you mention.

 

 

[kent]

I disagree and I have gone wildfowling with a Hpr of my own. Hunting dogs just don't settle like retrievers. I know because I have worked and owned both types

 

By the way if you had sixteen years to train a Hpr to do it all it likely could but the primary bit hunting would be it's biggest strength

 

The big clue is in the names

[lee-kinsman]

Get a working bred Golden Retriever. Theyll do everything you described. I'll never have another Lab.

[scotslad]

I dunno who does the spin/PR for the HPR breeds because there brillant at it.

 

Unless u want a dog to point it is a complete waste of time getting an HPR, unless u class versatile as doing a lot of things poorly and taking forever to train.

 

In my opinion asking an hpr to be a peg/hide dog or beating line dog is like buying an X5 to feed ur pheasants and throw deer in the back off, yes its a 4x4 and would do the job but not really the right tool for the job. U will find ur making too making excuses for it

Yes if u get the right individual u may eventually curb its ranging and hunting instinct, but sort of defeats hundreds of years of selective breeding.

 

While u are right u will have a dog for 10+ years, its a long time, but its also a very long time to have a great loooking dog that is rubbish at wot u need it to do and makes ur shooting life a misery. U will have a higher change of an hpr being that nightmare dog. most hpr breeds are noiser than normal gundogs too

 

A lab is a far more versitile breed, it does everyhing fairly well from wildfowling, working a beating line to deer tracking and far more forgiving to train esp for a novice

Sorry to be boring but a lab is ur best bet.

I've got a few dogs lab's, springer and GWP all have the plus's/minus;s and if i had to go down to just 1 dog i dunno wot i'd pick, love working the hunting breeds but probably a lab as itsmore practical for wot i do

[TONY R]

I disagree and I have gone wildfowling with a Hpr of my own. Hunting dogs just don't settle like retrievers. I know because I have worked and owned both types

 

By the way if you had sixteen years to train a Hpr to do it all it likely could but the primary bit hunting would be it's biggest strength

 

The big clue is in the names

When i first got a GSP i saw a video by some scotish fella from Bigar lanarkshire, top trainer a champion something or other. the video was a general overview with a few training hints.

In the video he explained retrieving was not a guarantee in a GSP and that they were primary a hunter and that if they retrieved it was a sort of bonus.

I went into the whole thing expecting an average retriever, you know run up to the bird esspecialy geese mouth it a little pick it up put it down pull a few feathers out that kind of disaster.

But no could not be further from the truth, when i started using it after it had the basics in place, and a few goose retrieves in the orchard to get the feel of the weight/size once out working had fastest out run i ever did see clearing creeks with a leap straight in up and fast paced retrieve very impressive, and on the Tay i was shocked how fast geese were found in a reed bed where two labradors were strugling to find birds and the dog was just 13 months old on his first trip out on the tay. .

Not a perfect all around fowling dog by any means, but in the HPRs i have owned they have all been very strong on retrieving, and of all the things they learn they seem to pick that up with me very easy.

Dont know what you meen by settle, but if you refer to sitting quiet in hides or possitions, thats again very simple with them if you do it properly right from the start.

[TONY R]

I dunno who does the spin/PR for the HPR breeds because there brillant at it.

 

Unless u want a dog to point it is a complete waste of time getting an HPR, unless u class versatile as doing a lot of things poorly and taking forever to train.

 

In my opinion asking an hpr to be a peg/hide dog or beating line dog is like buying an X5 to feed ur pheasants and throw deer in the back off, yes its a 4x4 and would do the job but not really the right tool for the job. U will find ur making too making excuses for it

Yes if u get the right individual u may eventually curb its ranging and hunting instinct, but sort of defeats hundreds of years of selective breeding.

 

While u are right u will have a dog for 10+ years, its a long time, but its also a very long time to have a great loooking dog that is rubbish at wot u need it to do and makes ur shooting life a misery. U will have a higher change of an hpr being that nightmare dog. most hpr breeds are noiser than normal gundogs too

 

A lab is a far more versitile breed, it does everyhing fairly well from wildfowling, working a beating line to deer tracking and far more forgiving to train esp for a novice

Sorry to be boring but a lab is ur best bet.

I've got a few dogs lab's, springer and GWP all have the plus's/minus;s and if i had to go down to just 1 dog i dunno wot i'd pick, love working the hunting breeds but probably a lab as itsmore practical for wot i do

Dont really get the X5 analogy at all. Hpr or versatile breeds are many and various and just about have every base covered perfectly with one breed or another, you take your pick what traits or vertues you like and sellect what you want/ need the most for what you want to do.

The OP sellected HWV, they are generaly are quiet have a decent weather proof coat type they retrieve well they hunt well they point well, they do all the things a labrador will do and some more besides, they need to be trained to do all this like any dog, and not all people can get it right, and not all people get training labradors right either, i have seen Labradors perported waterfowl retrievers owned by suposed wildfowlers with labs that wont enter water if there is a bit more curent flowing than they are used to, swim up to the goose swim round it and come back without it , and i have seen them carry geese up to the tides edge and leave them there with 30 yards of mud between the goose and handler . Any dog can be badly trained regardless of breed.

Versatile breeds are not for everyone but to label them as "doing a lot of things poorly and taking forever to train." whats all that about.

Curb ranging instincts that took hundreds of years to breed in to them. . Its called CONTROL.

 

Any dog any breed will Settle down in a hide sittuation, its about proper training and that training rageme is not in the remit of this thread.

The OP had done is research, he had picked his TWO breeds he even said he did not want a Labrador at this time and went on to say he had nothing against them. BUT HE DID NOT WANT ONE.

I answered his question i gave him advice advice he WANTED not what i wanted to give him regardless.

He will be fine with a HWV it will do all he needs and some and it wont take forever to train either.

[E.w.]

TONY R you've made some good points there chap but you need to go to bed posting at 2.41am isn't good for your health.

[scotslad]

I ws mibee a wee bit harsh in mylast post but i still stand by it.

I'm a bit old fashioned and just believe u should look at wot u require in a dog and then find the breed that suits u best, not wot is the prettiest and try to shoe horn it in to do a job its not really meant to.

 

Hprs only truely come into ur own when ponting on open spaces and are a jot to watch. Spending ur time restricting them to hunt very tightly is always going to be far harder than teaching a spanie to hunt tight, and many struggle with that.

 

If ur wanting a a hide dog u are far better with a retriever breed (lab,flat or goldy but finding decent working types of last 2 may be a prob)

 

I would say a big difference between FT trained dogs and 'normal' trained, the better dogs i've rough shot with are just normal trained so hunt tighter. The FT 1's always range but that is the way they're trained. Been lucky enough to shoot over a few FT winners/FTch's great on there own pointing but hard work when working with other dogs in a normal shoot day situation, usually 1srt throu most of the woods

 

Not trying to knock hpr's for the sake of it but the majority i've seen are far poorer than ur average lab at most things, even the FTch dogs which are very good retrievers/handle well are still only as good as an average lab, and they have been trained by very good trainers and had a LOT of time put into them.

 

If u picked a list of skills ur dog has and marked them all out of 10 (hunting, swimming, retrieving, handling, steadiness or wot ever else u require) a half decent lab should be getting 7's in most categories, the only thing i'd expect an hpr to score higher is pointing.

Almost every dog is a comprimise between certain traits (althou in OP's case really just a retriever) and its just wot trade off u want to make/sacrifice for the dogs looks

 

Most of the shorter haired breeds do have problems with water cold, almost all hpr breeds tend to be far noisier either whining or barking than other dogs as often encouraged on contient for tracking.

 

Finally why not reccommend a pointer or setter if a hpr is such a good choice? On the continent most of the traditional british breeds do retrieve, and are used in the exact same ways in many parts EP are more popular than the local hpr breed probably due to FF thou, but i know a few trainers here who use FF on all there hpr's to get them retrieving.

 

I still think most hpr breeds are well over hyped and nowhere near as good as some will tell u.

I will prob always have a hpr in kennel and do rally like the HWV breed seen a few decent dogs in that breed and probably only breed i'd consider after GWP

 

 

 

Ps i magine the lad ur on about will be Gibby, never knew he made a video, Greame (i think) won a bit in the past with hpr's but as long as i've known him now only runs spaniels and labs for working, heard he had a hpr few years ago but think got rid of it, definately never seen it out working even on the grouse.

Tommy brechany made a video/dvd years ago too, still quite good considering how old it is, very good trainer winning a bit with his spaniels now, hes a bit nearer to edinburgh thou

 

The X5 car analogy was meant to be using an unsuitable 4x4 when u really just want an old beat up pick up.

Edited February 27, 2016 by scotslad

[TONY R]

I ws mibee a wee bit harsh in mylast post but i still stand by it.

I'm a bit old fashioned and just believe u should look at wot u require in a dog and then find the breed that suits u best, not wot is the prettiest and try to shoe horn it in to do a job its not really meant to.

 

Hprs only truely come into ur own when ponting on open spaces and are a jot to watch. Spending ur time restricting them to hunt very tightly is always going to be far harder than teaching a spanie to hunt tight, and many struggle with that.

 

If ur wanting a a hide dog u are far better with a retriever breed (lab,flat or goldy but finding decent working types of last 2 may be a prob)

 

I would say a big difference between FT trained dogs and 'normal' trained, the better dogs i've rough shot with are just normal trained so hunt tighter. The FT 1's always range but that is the way they're trained. Been lucky enough to shoot over a few FT winners/FTch's great on there own pointing but hard work when working with other dogs in a normal shoot day situation, usually 1srt throu most of the woods

 

Not trying to knock hpr's for the sake of it but the majority i've seen are far poorer than ur average lab at most things, even the FTch dogs which are very good retrievers/handle well are still only as good as an average lab, and they have been trained by very good trainers and had a LOT of time put into them.

 

If u picked a list of skills ur dog has and marked them all out of 10 (hunting, swimming, retrieving, handling, steadiness or wot ever else u require) a half decent lab should be getting 7's in most categories, the only thing i'd expect an hpr to score higher is pointing.

Almost every dog is a comprimise between certain traits (althou in OP's case really just a retriever) and its just wot trade off u want to make/sacrifice for the dogs looks

 

Most of the shorter haired breeds do have problems with water cold, almost all hpr breeds tend to be far noisier either whining or barking than other dogs as often encouraged on contient for tracking.

 

Finally why not reccommend a pointer or setter if a hpr is such a good choice? On the continent most of the traditional british breeds do retrieve, and are used in the exact same ways in many parts EP are more popular than the local hpr breed probably due to FF thou, but i know a few trainers here who use FF on all there hpr's to get them retrieving.

 

I still think most hpr breeds are well over hyped and nowhere near as good as some will tell u.

I will prob always have a hpr in kennel and do rally like the HWV breed seen a few decent dogs in that breed and probably only breed i'd consider after GWP

 

 

 

Ps i magine the lad ur on about will be Gibby, never knew he made a video, Greame (i think) won a bit in the past with hpr's but as long as i've known him now only runs spaniels and labs for working, heard he had a hpr few years ago but think got rid of it, definately never seen it out working even on the grouse.

Tommy brechany made a video/dvd years ago too, still quite good considering how old it is, very good trainer winning a bit with his spaniels now, hes a bit nearer to edinburgh thou

 

The X5 car analogy was meant to be using an unsuitable 4x4 when u really just want an old beat up pick up.

 

TONY R you've made some good points there chap but you need to go to bed posting at 2.41am isn't good for your health.

I was sat about waiting for a mate to arive at 3.oclock to set off for the borders stalking, just keeping it on the straight and narrow, And no i have not shot one yet, Dont Tell me i should have brought My Labrador . Right?

 

Scotslad . HPRs are far more versatile than Labradors as a general purpose gundog, if you or anyone else has seen this or not its irelivent to this thread, in fact its irelivent anyway and in any case.

HPRS are not that common in the field here sso what? that is not a measure of what they are capable of.

Open moorland ranging dogs, in point of fact if i wanted a open ground dog i would go for a common or garden ENGLISH POINTER not say a GSP or vizla.

The OP wanted advice he outlined what advice he wanted and about what, and he got sound advice in the second post adressing one of his questions re springers, He wants a HWV or ESS, and he got advice from me.

I even pointed out the Labrador would do what he needed, but i went on to explain what breed i thought he should get and why.

I have had springers and Labradors for my whole life and not one was a family pet they all worked and worked hard. Now why do you think after such a long time and with so few let downs in these breeds i went for HPRS over the two breeds i have always known and had great service from in all forms of shooting.

That is easy because they fill gamer bags they get the job done in a brad spectrum of sport from pigeons to deer they wortk very well, they are versatile, and the pointing aspect is a feature i have grown to apreciate more and more a good pointer is an asset not a hinderance to me i rate the Versatile breeds and as i pointed out earlier i am only sorry i did not get to work with them my whole life like i have the springers and Labradors.

Edited February 27, 2016 by TONY R

[kent]

When i first got a GSP i saw a video by some scotish fella from Bigar lanarkshire, top trainer a champion something or other. the video was a general overview with a few training hints.

In the video he explained retrieving was not a guarantee in a GSP and that they were primary a hunter and that if they retrieved it was a sort of bonus.

I went into the whole thing expecting an average retriever, you know run up to the bird esspecialy geese mouth it a little pick it up put it down pull a few feathers out that kind of disaster.

But no could not be further from the truth, when i started using it after it had the basics in place, and a few goose retrieves in the orchard to get the feel of the weight/size once out working had fastest out run i ever did see clearing creeks with a leap straight in up and fast paced retrieve very impressive, and on the Tay i was shocked how fast geese were found in a reed bed where two labradors were strugling to find birds and the dog was just 13 months old on his first trip out on the tay. .

Not a perfect all around fowling dog by any means, but in the HPRs i have owned they have all been very strong on retrieving, and of all the things they learn they seem to pick that up with me very easy.

Dont know what you meen by settle, but if you refer to sitting quiet in hides or possitions, thats again very simple with them if you do it properly right from the start.

But retrievers are bred to settle. Hpr to run and hunt far and wide. I know they can do it I used one

In equal hands a lab. Chessie or work bred goldy will male the better fowling dog. Peg dogs nor all the trial dogs I have seen on the Marsh are up to much imo no gumption or initiative

[WGD]

The biggest challenge with an HPR is getting one bred from a decent sire and dam to start with.

 

I've seen one GSP that would do any job you care to motion better than any of the competing breeds.

 

Tom Brechney has told me in the past he would put a good GSP against any lab in the country.

 

I've also shot over a load of HPRs and haven't seen one I'd give kennel space.