Doctors Letters - Rip Off Charge

[robbiep]

Evidence that this will go up to 100% is where?

 

Evidence that if the shooting organisations and BASC in particular doing what we did achieved nothing and alternative (ie BASC doing nothing at all) would have been better is where?

 

Evidence that a 10year certificate will only arrive when compulsory medical check are on every application and renewal is where?

 

Evidence of current 'senior BASC representative' i.e. last 12 months is where?

 

Making sweeping statements is pretty pointless.

 

David, there are some on here who just wish to 'have a pop'. As BASC are the biggest (and most visible, in spite of allegedly being useless), then you are the obvious target for them

 

You could post up how it was a lovely sunny day, and they'd have to go on about the weather forecast and rain for later in the week, or that the weather where they are isn't so good, but you don't care about them over where they are !

[andrewluke]

 

David, there are some on here who just wish to 'have a pop'. As BASC are the biggest (and most visible, in spite of allegedly being useless), then you are the obvious target for them

 

You could post up how it was a lovely sunny day, and they'd have to go on about the weather forecast and rain for later in the week, or that the weather where they are isn't so good, but you don't care about them over where they are !

 

i have read that the new rules start(paying for your doctors report )on 1st april,i had a letter from my firearms department over 2 weeks ago stating that i had to get a doctors report at my cost(renewal date 14/3/16),i contacted basc about the doctors report and they told me to pay up!

[panoma1]

Evidence that this will go up to 100% is where?

 

Evidence that if the shooting organisations and BASC in particular doing what we did achieved nothing and alternative (ie BASC doing nothing at all) would have been better is where?

 

Evidence that a 10year certificate will only arrive when compulsory medical check are on every application and renewal is where?

 

Evidence of current 'senior BASC representative' i.e. last 12 months is where?

 

Making sweeping statements is pretty pointless.

You will note my posting was punctuated by question marks, so my posting was asking questions......not making statements, I can no more see into the future than you can!....but despite past experience you (BASC?) seem perfectly happy to trust that the police will not take advantage of the rules, with no guarantee they won't?.....where I would like to see safeguards and checks put in place to avoid the possibility of it happening.

In reply you have answered my question with a question......do you really hold people questioning BASC in such contempt?

[andrewluke]

there was talk about firearms/shotgun certs being pushed up to around the £200 mark to cover costs,Basc weren't happy for £200 fees but are happy with what we have to pay now plus cost of doctors report which together could cost around the £200???

[Scully]

None of my statements are sweeping generalisations David. All information I've mentioned above came from Mike Eveleigh during a long conversation we had some time ago; whether he is still a current senior representative or not I have no idea.

BASC are doing what they can, but at best it is only damage limitation.

I'll guarantee that within the foreseeable future GPs reports become mandatory for all, and if our shooting organisations can do anything to prevent it I'll double my subscription fee.

The most annoying aspect of our shooting organisations is that, through no fault of their own, they have no real clout, but market themselves as though they have. i find it infuriating.

At least Mike Eveleigh tells it like it is.

[David BASC]

_{I am not holding anyone in contempt by simply asking for evidence to back up a statement that 100% of applications will need a medical report. I just cant see this happening. Never the less BASC already keeps records on what the different licencing teams are doing, so if we start seeing a change in trends we will take it up with that team.}

 

_{If you identify something on your application that needs further medial investigation then yes you have to pay. However where have I or BASC said or inferred we are happy with a £200 cost for a report?}

 

_{Exactly Scully your conversations were a long time ago, . How long , in years, is ' the foreseeable future'?}

 

_{As I said Scully, do you think we would now be in a better situation if BASC had done nothing?}

[wymberley]

 

 

_{do you think we would now be in a better situation if BASC had done something?}

Possibly!

[andrewluke]

 

 

_{If you identify something on your application that needs further medial investigation then yes you have to pay. However where have I or BASC said or inferred we are happy with a £200 cost for a report?}

 

i had a medical condition which i suffered in 2007.i renewed my shotgun cert and applied for fac in 2011,i had both certs with no questions asked,i.ve just renewed and been asked for a doctors report for the condition i suffered in 2007,do i need to mention the 2007 condition at every renewal???

 

i never said a report would be £200,i said the cost of certificates plus reports could possibly cost around £200 in total which is what the police wanted!!

[Scully]

My conversation with Mike Eveleigh was less than two years ago. I started the conversation by asking what BASC were doing about applicants being charged for GP's reports and he asked me 'what would you like us to do?' So I told him.

In view of my blunt question and his understandably equally brusk reply we didn't get off to a good start, but eventually we got to talking productively.

He told me that BASC were pushing for a 10 year certificate life as a compromise for a GP's report ( which applicants would be charged for ) as that is what ACPO were pushing for, and that eventually it would become mandatory for all applicants. That is when he told me 'there is nothing we can do about it'. It was also at this stage in the conversation that I told him that if there was nothing BASC could do about it I didn't see the point in being a member anymore. He then asked me 'If I told you all shooting would be banned within ten years time, would you stop shooting tomorrow?' Read into that what you will.

We are now at the stage where we have to pay for a GP's report, so he was right in that respect, and you have mentioned us being a step closer to a 10 year certificate, so he may be correct in that respect also. Therefore I have no reason to doubt him about the mandatory aspect for all, that he also mentioned.

Your guess as to how far off the 'foreseeable future' is, is as good as mine, but it's nice to see you at least haven't denied it's going to happen.

I don't know that BASC has done anything David. As Mr Eveleigh said, what can they do?

[wymberley]

i had a medical condition which i suffered in 2007.i renewed my shotgun cert and applied for fac in 2011,i had both certs with no questions asked,i.ve just renewed and been asked for a doctors report for the condition i suffered in 2007,do i need to mention the 2007 condition at every renewal???

 

i never said a report would be £200,i said the cost of certificates plus reports could possibly cost around £200 in total which is what the police wanted!!

I tried to do a multi quote response but your posts have exceeded the limit available for this facility.

My admiration for your patience is boundless. I trust that you finally get a response which you so richly deserve. Sadly, though, the only way that will occur, as experience reflects, is if you become critical, however justified, of your organisation.

[BRYAN3]

What worries me is that the doctors have to have a "coded flag" to show that we hold firearms. Is this because everyone and their dog has access to the patient info at the surgery.

How long will it take for a sandle wearing beardie tree hugger to break the code and publish our adresses,or worse still some Isis sympathiser.

The Police would have a field day revoking our certificates with no expence spared finding staff.

Another thing, do pilots and HGV drivers have compulsory doctors reports?

If so then that is what we shall have 100%. A pressident (spelling) has been set.

[Westley]

they just dont want us to have guns do they

 

Just hope and pray that your Doctor is NOT one of them !

[David BASC]

Wymberly - I note you have to edit my post to try to make your point... suggesting to me that you ( and possibly Scully) are not aware of the potential alternatives we had to fight against?

 

I do not believe is a time limit on medical issue, but I will check

 

As to your conversation with Mike, Scully, we all know changes were coming, but to suggest that BASC thought that compulsory medical checks for all applications / renewals were the only way for a 10 year cert is simply not correct... We only have to pay at application / renewal IF there is a medical issue, not all the time. If something happens in the interim that needs medical investigation, the police pay.

 

You have not answered my simple question Scully- do you think we would have been better off if BASC has done nothing?

 

Of course there will always be a few of you who want to cast a doubt over what BASC does and delivers, that's your way - even though you have chosen not to support BASC but support another organisation..I guess that's why you find it hard to accept that BASC can and does dleiver

Edited March 29, 2016 by David BASC

[mossy835]

 

Just hope and pray that your Doctor is NOT one of them !

 

he not one of them i told him i have guns years ago, and his mate does shooting,

[wascal]

 

Another thing, do pilots and HGV drivers have compulsory doctors reports?

 

All pilots have A Doctors / Aviation specialist Medical report , The class of medical ( Cost ) varies with the type of flying and the frequency is age dependant

[Scully]

Wymberly - I note you have to edit my post to try to make your point... suggesting to me that you ( and possibly Scully) are not aware of the potential alternatives we had to fight against?

 

I do not believe is a time limit on medical issue, but I will check

 

As to your conversation with Mike, Scully, we all know changes were coming, but to suggest that BASC thought that compulsory medical checks for all applications / renewals were the only way for a 10 year cert is simply not correct... We only have to pay at application / renewal IF there is a medical issue, not all the time. If something happens in the interim that needs medical investigation, the police pay.

 

You have not answered my simple question Scully- do you think we would have been better off if BASC has done nothing?

 

Of course there will always be a few of you who want to cast a doubt over what BASC does and delivers, that's your way - even though you have chosen not to support BASC but support another organisation..I guess that's why you find it hard to accept that BASC can and does dleiver

 

You're correct David , I'm not aware of any alternatives BASC had to fight against; is anyone?

In answer to your question; I have no idea if we would have been better off if BASC had done nothing for the same reason I've just given above, but I sincerely believe we wouldn't have been any worse off ultimately.

It wasn't me who suggested compulsory GP's reports were the only way to achieve a 10 year certificate David, that came from Mike Eveleigh.

If BASC ( or any other organisation for that matter ) is delivering, how come we are continually faced with an ever increasing amount of legislation and obstacles to pursue a perfectly legal pursuit? Each one a further little nail in the coffin that one day UK shooting will undoubtedly be buried in. How come nothing is going the other way? How come no nails are ever pulled out David? And please don't try and tell me that if everyone was a BASC member it would be so much easier; we both know that simply isn't the case.

I left because when I wanted BASC to deliver, I found it greatly disappointing to find they neither could nor would. I felt extremely let down. I stuck with them for a long time, from one disappointment to another.

The straw which finally broke the camels back for me has already been discussed in depth.

Personally, I'm not entirely against a compulsory GP's report; even though it wont stop anyone going loopy with a gun ( but ironically may well stop anyone with problems seeking the help they need ) as it is the ultimate step in firearms legislation. What else could possibly be introduced as a safeguard against another mass shooting with the exception of a complete ban? Psychiatric report?

[David BASC]

You have evidently missed the proposals that all applicants new and renewals had to fill in a medical declaration form which then had to be sent to their doctor for checking before the application could be processed. This was at considerable cost to the applicant. This was a pilot run by Durham police - surprised you missed it frankly as it got a lot of coverage

 

So if BASC had not fought for the 'Essex' pilot system, we may well have been faced will ALL of us having to complete medical forms and have them checked by the doc - if BASC had failed in this regard then yes we would have been open to significant criticism.

 

What Mike may or may not have said to you and in what context is totally unknown to me, however, not surprisingly you choose to take his alleged comments as gospel because they seem to support your argument, but ignore mine which run contrary to your argument...

 

You may have your own views on how powerful a BASC that was three time the size it is now may be, but to say a larger BASC would not be effective is simply not correct, you know it I know it, everyone knows it!

 

OK a few examples of how things have got better: Simpler forms. ALOQ, and going back a few years abolition of the game licence. There are more of course but its pointless listing them because you will ignore them, or say its not enough with your 'glass half empty' attitude. Fact is shooting is increasing in popularity and economic value.

 

Ironic that at one point you say there are increasing barriers in the way of shooting and then close by saying that you are not entirely opposed to compulsory medical checks...I doubt many will share your view on that!

 

No I do not think a full psychiatric report would be of much benefit, and certainly would be cost prohibitive

 

David

[wymberley]

 

 

You may have your own views on how powerful a BASC that was three time the size it is now may be, but to say a larger BASC would not be effective is simply not correct, you know it I know it, everyone knows it!

 

 

 

David

I'm afraid to say that sadly I don't know it and it's nothing against BASC.

A few years back the number of people that would equate to that of approx' 3 times the BASC membership went to London and what did that achieve?

[Scully]

You have evidently missed the proposals that all applicants new and renewals had to fill in a medical declaration form which then had to be sent to their doctor for checking before the application could be processed. This was at considerable cost to the applicant. This was a pilot run by Durham police - surprised you missed it frankly as it got a lot of coverage

I didn't miss it David. The present system which BASC is now applauding itself for will also be at considerable cost to the applicant as it would appear there is no cap on what a GP can charge.

 

So if BASC had not fought for the 'Essex' pilot system, we may well have been faced will ALL of us having to complete medical forms and have them checked by the doc - if BASC had failed in this regard then yes we would have been open to significant criticism.

​Are you claiming that ACPO are NOT pushing for all of us to face a GP's report eventually? I wonder why Mike Eveleigh would say this if it were not true.

 

What Mike may or may not have said to you and in what context is totally unknown to me, however, not surprisingly you choose to take his alleged comments as gospel because they seem to support your argument, but ignore mine which run contrary to your argument...

I'm not ignoring yours David, but the information as given to me runs contrary to that you are giving to me. I simply want the truth.

 

 

You may have your own views on how powerful a BASC that was three time the size it is now may be, but to say a larger BASC would not be effective is simply not correct, you know it I know it, everyone knows it!

​BASC and the word 'powerful' cannot be used in the same sentence. BASC manages damage limitation; nothing less nothing more. You know, I know it and every one else knows it. It manages it quite well in the short term and for minor victories, but isn't the saviour of shooting you ( and me ) would like it to be. If BASC was everything it's marketing strategy claimed it was I'd still be a member.

 

OK a few examples of how things have got better: Simpler forms. Debatable, as many have stated on here. ALOQ, Was that BASC? and going back a few years abolition of the game licence. Very few bothered with the game license; it was an outdated piece of legislation which cost more to administer than it received. What a coup! There are more of course but its pointless listing them because you will ignore them, or say its not enough with your 'glass half empty' attitude. Fact is shooting is increasing in popularity and economic value.

Shall I list BASC's failures and shortcomings? I can guarantee it will be a much longer and more significant list than anything you could compile.

 

Ironic that at one point you say there are increasing barriers in the way of shooting and then close by saying that you are not entirely opposed to compulsory medical checks...I doubt many will share your view on that! At least you acknowledge it is an increased barrier to those who want to participate in shooting. It's coming; as sure as eggs is eggs.

 

No I do not think a full psychiatric report would be of much benefit, and certainly would be cost prohibitive Ditto for a GP's report, with BASC's consent.

 

David

[David BASC]

I was asked about the time limit on medial issues. In the past the form asked is you suffer from (i.e. currently) any medical condition , it then continued to ask if you had ever suffered form depression etc.

 

On the new forms, from April 1st, this second question has been removed, and it only asks if you are 'suffering from'

 

 

 

Scully, I think you are exaggerating the issue - only those who declare a medical issue will incur a cost, the cost will depend on how much investigation is required. The pilot study shows less than 2% needed further investigation, so the cost on the vast majority will be nil - had we failed in this regard then the cost could have been significant to ALL regardless of any current medical condition. Do you understand that?

 

I do not know of any intention by the police or HO to push towards compulsory medical checks for all, remember your discussion with Mike was some time ago, and many months before the changes were announced. Things change, - its called effective ;lobbying The truth of the matter is where we are now

 

As I correctly predicted you will chose to ignore everything BASC delivers and try to exaggerate everything you believe BASC has failed on to support you own point of view - further debate on that point is useless as come what may I am confident you will never admit that BASC is delivering more than anyone else and that without BASC shooting would be in a far worse position.

 

Why not concentrate your efforts and criticisms of the organisation you now choose to support?

[mudpatten]

It would be very interesting to know what that organisation is?

 

Just so that, in the interest of fairness, we can compare their effectiveness with that of BASC.

 

But wait, the subject of this entire debate is about to become law, despite the aparrent efforts of BASC AND THE OTHER COUNTRYSIDE GROUP.

 

And yet the critics only harangue BASC and not the other group(s) who also apparently failed.

 

I think it says a tremendous amount about the mind set of the complainers.

 

Words like biased,lop sided, skewed, unfair and partisan come to my mind.

[fenboy]

I think some on here consider BASC bashing a sport in its own right

It's become so predictable it verging on boring.

 

Where is the face of the CA or NGO on here ?

 

I think David must dread logging onto PW .

[David BASC]

No mate I love it! But I do feel a bit like Derren Brown sometimes, with my ability to predict the contents of some peoples posts

[robbiep]

As I posted the other day.

 

 

David, there are some on here who just wish to 'have a pop'. As BASC are the biggest (and most visible, in spite of allegedly being useless), then you are the obvious target for them

 

You could post up how it was a lovely sunny day, and they'd have to go on about the weather forecast and rain for later in the week, or that the weather where they are isn't so good, but you don't care about them over where they are !

 

Unsurprisingly, certain people didn't disappoint !

[David BASC]

Not wishing to get into any arguments, but at BASC we will continue to do all we can to constantly hit our objectives:

• A strong and unified voice for shooting
• All party backing for shooting
• Balanced comment in the media
• Continued opportunity to go shooting
• High standards

Not everyone supports what we do or how we do it, so be it, but regardless of what some may say or think BASC exists to keep shooting safe.

 

We will continue to help our members and subsequently the knock on effect is helping all who go shooting. For those that are not members just look at the web site to see what BASC is delivering compared to others - its clear to see.

 

The more support we get the more we can and will deliver. For those that choose not to support us, well please focus your attentions on the organisation you choose to support rather than throwing brickbats at BASC, for doing the latter will achieve absolutely nothing.

 

David