THE EU - IN OR OUT AND SHOOTING MATTERS

[Savhmr]

Rewulf, the pub bore is anyone spouting FACTS without any substantiation.

 

You've understood the other point either. Most brexiteers have studiously refrained from arguing X says we should stay. That's because there are so many better commentators saying we should remain. By listing JCB and Dyson you appear to be acknowledging that argument has weight.

 

And is that an ad hominem logical fallacy rounding off your post?

 

 

?

 

Checking facts is what any sane, rational and intelligent person does when faced with such a monumental decision to be part of. The facts above are all within the public domain so to call then unsubstantiated is illogical and the response seems to be clutching at staws as there seems to be no constructive or gentlemanly come-back. I'm not posting to get into personal mud slinging, so those that wish to, knock yourselves out but you're not actually adding anything to the debate and are losing the argument in the meantime :-)

 

The standard "Remainers" tactic sadly seems to be sinking to a pretty low common denominator of "lets just sling personal insults at Brexiters", the term "Brexiter" being used as a derogatory term itself. Sad.

 

Grown up debate is all about exchanging facts, figures, reasoning and then coming to a conclusion that will either be agreed upon or wont. Either way, there's no place for personal insults or smart alec remarks like the last one. No-where have I posted anything remotely intended as "ad-hominem" as I have no personal axes to grind.

Edited June 11, 2016 by Savhmr

[BattleFieldRelics]

Out

[islandgun]

listening to the radio today a man in the car business (not a politician I think) said that Britain makes more cars now than ever before, he was concerned that if we leave, manufacturers would also leave and re-locate in mainland Europe without possible trade barriers and with cheaper labour. !

[Dick]

If we were not in the EU.....knowing what we know about it, would we be wanting to join......I think not. Common Market....yes. United States of Europe led by President Merkel.....no, no, no.

[d foxxer]

out

[guzzicat]

OUT. Then brick up the channel tunnel.

[Granett]

Savhmr, I wasn't referring to you, but since you've replied...

 

Your arguments ARE unsubstantiated because in a debate it's not sufficient to say the "facts" are in the public domain.

 

If you say there is evidence to support an argument, and I say there is not, its perhaps the first rule of debating that the onus is not on me to prove the absence of that evidence.

 

Instead, it is for the person making the argument to show their workings.

 

 

If you like we could have a proper debate. How about "This house believes that remaining in Europe will cause the UK poor to become poorer and the elite will thrive"?

Edited June 11, 2016 by Granett

[Rewulf]

Rewulf, the pub bore is anyone spouting FACTS without any substantiation.

 

You've understood the other point either. Most brexiteers have studiously refrained from arguing X says we should stay. That's because there are so many better commentators saying we should remain. By listing JCB and Dyson you appear to be acknowledging that argument has weight.

 

And is that an ad hominem logical fallacy rounding off your post?

 

Sooo ,the pub bore is not a real 'factual' person he is someone you have invented who doesnt agree with your opinion.

 

Your second line doesnt even make any sense.

 

Do you require citation of sources from every single opinion that you read on this forum ? Otherwise they are not facts ,and you can disregard them ?

Well this is how a forum works, its about opinions and general banter.

If I state something is a fact,its because I have a pretty good idea,and usually a source, that it is.

 

You say;

"Your arguments ARE unsubstantiated because in a debate it's not sufficient to say the "facts" are in the public domain.

If you say there is evidence to support an argument, and I say there is not, its perhaps the first rule of debating that the onus is not on me to prove the absence of that evidence.

Instead, it is for the person making the argument to show their workings."

 

Why dont you get the Bremainians (You like that ?) to prove as facts the contents of their 9 million quids worth of pamphlet?

Why dont you ask Cam to substantiate his claims of Brexit causing war or recession?

The whole remain argument is based on what 'could' or ' might ' happen ,it is not based on fact ,because it has not happened..yet.

So surely you must ignore everything they say ?

And finally you should ask yourself why you 'think' leaving would be a bad thing, and ask yourself why you have formed that OPINION.

 

What I can say about it with a degree of certainty,because it has already happened.

Is that if we stay,we will get more of the same shoddy treatment,economic ruin and erosion of democracy.

And maybe even worse.*

 

 

 

 

 

*This is not a fact,just my opinion.

[Granett]

Rewulf. You don't understand. That's fine. I'm not asking you for a formal debate.

[ditchman]

I think the only true fact there is.......this whole EU mess is not what the British people signed up for all them years ago..........and my worry is...if it lasts that long ..what will it be like and what "other" things will be forced on us in the next few years....the average working person of our "septered isle" dosnt really have much...but at least we have the pride of waking up in the morning knowing we are British.......and that is not what the EU want........

 

i still cant fathom out how the French let their Franc go...and the Dutch the Guilder etc etc etc......without a fight...your currency is part of your identity...........

[Rewulf]

Rewulf. You don't understand. That's fine. I'm not asking you for a formal debate.

 

Is that it?

I dont understand because I dont share your politics?

Thats pretty poor ,Ill have to wait for the next time you let the troll out

[Granett]

Rewulf, you don't understand the flaw in your argument (which I'm not going to explain again - as I've said, there's little merit in a debate between you and me).

[motty]

For some time I was undecided, but after a lot of research there is no doubt that its best for the country if we stay in. Both politicians on sides are blatant liars with Boris, Fox, Cameron and Gould being by far the worst. Before you make your mind up read around the subject (there are dozens of economic forecasts out there from a very wide range of opinions, but many with no axe to grind in this mess) and 90% of them all point one way. If we leave we will be cutting off our nose to spite our face.

 

If we leave we will still have high immigration rates. We could cut the number of immigrants by half tomorrow if the political will was there as the majority of immigrants come from outside the EU not from within it. But we are an ageing population making high demands on our NHS and these demands will go up in the near future. So our Nation insurance is going to have to rise steeply to pay for the NHS unless we get a pool of workers who pay tax and NI and make little demands on the NHS ect. Most immigrants are young, make few demands on our social security, but they are paying the tax needed to run our NHS. Most of Europe pays about 9-10% GDP into their health services, the UK pays 6%. Of course we could keep the payments back from the EU and plough them into the health service, but over the past few years Gold, Fox, and Boris have all advocated privatising the NHS so where will that money go that we are now paying to the EU, my bet will be tax breaks for the super rich. Of course we could leave, keep the immigrants out and pay a lot more on our NI. I have no love for immigrants and bemoan the loss of the British traditional way of life, but if this country is to prosper in the wider world the EU is a necessary evil, a club we have to be a member of.

You are so wrong.

[motty]

 

Believe it or not,and Im getting tired of saying this, not everyone who wants out, reads the right wing rags and secretly keeps a nazi stormtrooper uniform in his wardrobe.

I want out because I am genuinely fearful for my childrens future if we stay shackled to the EU.

I also think this country could do with a kick in the derriere ,to get some of these layabouts into work.

There is your tax money, being spent on people to NOT work,when they could be working and paying tax,we import foreign labour because successive governments havnt the balls to tackle our home grown lazy.

In times past this country has pulled together when faced with adversity, so lets see if we are little England or Great Britain.

Totally agree. We only need skilled migrants. Lets force our home grown lazy **** out of bed and into work.

[FalconFN]

Totally agree. We only need skilled migrants. Lets force our home grown lazy **** out of bed and into work.

But it's worth remembering that we have very low unemployment so that alone wouldn't fill the gap in low skilled or low wage jobs such as carers and cleaners.

 

Immigration is needed but it would be good to havea at the very least an idea of who is coming in, and a means to control who we want.

 

Immigration isn't as important to me as the lack of democratic processes in the EU, if we had a smaller, less political union that had commissioners that we voted in, and that concentrated in trade rather than ideaoligies, then I'd strongly want to stay, but as it is I'm forced to vote out.

[motty]

Very low? Still around 1.7M. Apparantly we have around 2M EU nationals working in the UK. To my mind, the NEED for immigration is not that great.

But it's worth remembering that we have very low unemployment so that alone wouldn't fill the gap in low skilled or low wage jobs such as carers and cleaners.

Immigration is needed but it would be good to havea at the very least an idea of who is coming in, and a means to control who we want.

Immigration isn't as important to me as the lack of democratic processes in the EU, if we had a smaller, less political union that had commissioners that we voted in, and that concentrated in trade rather than ideaoligies, then I'd strongly want to stay, but as it is I'm forced to vote out.

[Granett]

Do these "faceless unelected EU bureaucrats" that apparently control our lives actually exist or are they just a strawman argument to add to the long list of logical fallacies being bandied about?

 

Can anyone provide any evidence?

[FalconFN]

Do these "faceless unelected EU bureaucrats" that apparently control our lives actually exist or are they just a strawman argument to add to the long list of logical fallacies being bandied about?

 

Can anyone provide any evidence?

The EU commissioners are the unelected driving force for lawmaking in the EU and the ones with most of the power - and unfortunately it isn't very transparent or accountable to anyone outside the EU structure.

 

This is my biggest concern and something I can't justify with the undoubted benefits of staying in.

[FalconFN]

Very low? Still around 1.7M. Apparantly we have around 2M EU nationals working in the UK. To my mind, the NEED for immigration is not that great.

But a percentage of those will be unemployed for a short period of time, some will be skilled professionals, for example teachers or engineers, others will have very specific skill sets that may take time to find employment, others could be in areas of high unemployment that can't move to more expensive but prosperous areas. Granted there will be dossers and wasters and a few more unemployable types but on the whole just saying the 1.7 million unemployed could just take over the jobs done by immigrants is just not remotely viable.

[ditchman]

Do these "faceless unelected EU bureaucrats" that apparently control our lives actually exist or are they just a strawman argument to add to the long list of logical fallacies being bandied about?

 

Can anyone provide any evidence?

 

 

EU are very cagey about releasing numbers....but when pressed they "estimated" there were in excess of 85.000 people employed directly by the EU....that does not include tradesmen / suppliers etc.....

[NatureBoy]

I think the only true fact there is.......this whole EU mess is not what the British people signed up for all them years ago..........and my worry is...if it lasts that long ..what will it be like and what "other" things will be forced on us in the next few years....the average working person of our "septered isle" dosnt really have much...but at least we have the pride of waking up in the morning knowing we are British.......and that is not what the EU want........

 

i still cant fathom out how the French let their Franc go...and the Dutch the Guilder etc etc etc......without a fight...your currency is part of your identity...........

Very true! Well said Ditchman! If we weren't a member and knowing all the facts we do now and what we have experienced from the EU over the years! Would we want to join now!!?

Out or in what our "leaders" and this referendum debate has shown us mean one thing!! Our Country and politics is in for some BIG changes in the next few years!

[panoma1]

But it's worth remembering that we have very low unemployment so that alone wouldn't fill the gap in low skilled or low wage jobs such as carers and cleaners.

Immigration is needed but it would be good to havea at the very least an idea of who is coming in, and a means to control who we want.

Immigration isn't as important to me as the lack of democratic processes in the EU, if we had a smaller, less political union that had commissioners that we voted in, and that concentrated in trade rather than ideaoligies, then I'd strongly want to stay, but as it is I'm forced to vote out.

If anyone believes the governments statistics regarding unemployment they probably still believe in the tooth fairy! We don't "need" cheap foreign workers, they are "wanted" by employers simply because they undercut our own workforce and drive wages down, they work for half (a kings ransom in the former eastern block) the wage a British worker could afford to work for......all cheap foreign labour is there for is to give employers bigger profits! The less wages the employer pays the bigger their profits for them! Why do you think many businesses supports the EU "remain" side?...............An unlimited supply of cheap foreign labour!

There is no shortage of low skilled British workers to fill jobs.........the only thing that is in short supply is decent wages for our own people to live a decent life relative to the cost of living in the this country.

 

Why, in this country are the rich getting richer whilst the poor are unemployed, que at food banks or are on benefits? And no I don't include those for which claiming benefits are a lifestyle choice!........it is because of the covert government policy to redistribute wealth to the rich, achieved by forcing the cost of labour (the poor) down by bringing in cheap foreign labour.......to satisfy demands from employers (the rich) for more and bigger profits!

[FalconFN]

If anyone believes the governments statistics regarding unemployment they probably still believe in the tooth fairy! We don't "need" cheap foreign workers, they are "wanted" by employers simply because they undercut our own workforce and drive wages down, they work for half (a kings ransom in the former eastern block) the wage a British worker could afford to work for......all cheap foreign labour is there for is to give employers bigger profits! The less wages the employer pays the bigger their profits for them! Why do you think many businesses supports the EU "remain" side?...............An unlimited supply of cheap foreign labour!

There is no shortage of low skilled British workers to fill jobs.........the only thing that is in short supply is decent wages for our own people to live a decent life relative to the cost of living in the this country.

 

Why, in this country are the rich getting richer whilst the poor are unemployed, que at food banks or are on benefits? And no I don't include those for which claiming benefits are a lifestyle choice!........it is because of the covert government policy to redistribute wealth to the rich, achieved by forcing the cost of labour (the poor) down by bringing in cheap foreign labour.......to satisfy demands from employers (the rich) for more and bigger profits!

Perhaps you could vote for Corbyn next time? :😉: Edited June 12, 2016 by FalconFN

[12gauge82]

If anyone believes the governments statistics regarding unemployment they probably still believe in the tooth fairy! We don't "need" cheap foreign workers, they are "wanted" by employers simply because they undercut our own workforce and drive wages down, they work for half (a kings ransom in the former eastern block) the wage a British worker could afford to work for......all cheap foreign labour is there for is to give employers bigger profits! The less wages the employer pays the bigger their profits for them! Why do you think many businesses supports the EU "remain" side?...............An unlimited supply of cheap foreign labour!

There is no shortage of low skilled British workers to fill jobs.........the only thing that is in short supply is decent wages for our own people to live a decent life relative to the cost of living in the this country.

 

Why, in this country are the rich getting richer whilst the poor are unemployed, que at food banks or are on benefits? And no I don't include those for which claiming benefits are a lifestyle choice!........it is because of the covert government policy to redistribute wealth to the rich, achieved by forcing the cost of labour (the poor) down by bringing in cheap foreign labour.......to satisfy demands from employers (the rich) for more and bigger profits!

Spot on, we're being played by the elites of this country anyone who can't see it is blind.

[panoma1]

Politics is, I always think, a bit like religion..............you don't have to believe in it all to be a good Christian!