Harry136 Posted July 20, 2016 Report Share Posted July 20, 2016 Brexit means Brexit, we should not even be entertaining these fools, we should just get on with implementing the peoples will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrM Posted July 20, 2016 Report Share Posted July 20, 2016 Brexit means Brexit, we should not even be entertaining these fools, we should just get on with implementing the peoples will. At the end of the day it shouldn't affect the timescale of early 2017 for triggering Article 50, as outlined by May.. They still need to get the negotiating team in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted July 20, 2016 Report Share Posted July 20, 2016 MrM - Briefs tend to reflect the views of their clients - be they Government briefs or private. Very few seem to take a client to one side and tell them they are misguided, wrong or lying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrM Posted July 20, 2016 Report Share Posted July 20, 2016 (edited) MrM - Briefs tend to reflect the views of their clients - be they Government briefs or private. Very few seem to take a client to one side and tell them they are misguided, wrong or lying. Ah fair point there ! But at the end of the day, the courts have accepted the case after preliminary hearings, and despite whether the likes of you or I or uncle Tom Cobley think differently, one way or another either it will end up in either a commons debate or T May will get to decide when she kicks it all off. Edited July 20, 2016 by MrM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted July 20, 2016 Report Share Posted July 20, 2016 MrM - I don't really disagree. That said, there have been a fair number of cases which have gone through the Magistrates Court onto Crown Court, where the Judge has commented that he / she could not understand why the case had been brought. I trust these preliminary hearings are a little more robust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted July 20, 2016 Report Share Posted July 20, 2016 I don't mind it being debated in parliament in order to put the subject to bed. If they don't it will always be left hanging. Woe betide any MP that tries to block it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted July 20, 2016 Report Share Posted July 20, 2016 Remember that an MP is answerable to his or her constituents at the next election, not to the country as a whole. How much pressure will be on those from areas where the vote was to remain? Then you have the House of Lords who can be unpredictable and obstructive. Certainly there are ways to impose the will of the Commons but that takes time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savhmr Posted July 20, 2016 Report Share Posted July 20, 2016 "Brexit Means Brexit" is becoming very tedious as a saying, and the more May says it, the less I believe her. Why? "Brexit" is meaningless, and I mean absolutely and utterly meaningless until and unless Article 50 is invoked. It is nothing but a weasel word misused for political rhetoric. I doubt very much whether triggering Article 50 will go to a commons debate with any real meaning. The decision was made by the public so a majority of Remain politicians debating it ad nausea in the House of commons cannot over rule the people that they represent. It is all a matter of wording. Parliament have to approve the triggering of Article 50, namely the House of Lords. The House of commons have already had their say in the referendum campaigning and whether they approve is neither here nor there. Whether they support triggering it is an entirely different matter and legal challenge would face them if they refused to trigger it as that would be unconstitutional in spirit, if not in the letter of the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrM Posted July 20, 2016 Report Share Posted July 20, 2016 (edited) Whether they support triggering it is an entirely different matter and legal challenge would face them if they refused to trigger it as that would be unconstitutional in spirit, if not in the letter of the law. Legal challenge based on what? As has been said on here many times, there is no legal requirement to follow the result of the referendum. We live in a representative democracy and as such that means we give our MPs the power to make decisions for us. They have complete power to overrule it. Up to now basically we as a population have quite happily and in the most cases, in total ignorance, accepted this. Of course yes we have had riots against things like the poll tax, but that pails into insignificance compared to this. This is one of the biggest constitutional issues we may have ever faced (barring wars etc), and the population has awoken and want their voice heard. The worry is that a lot of MPs are doing what they like doing best and thinking that the populous can be ignored. Don't hold your breath that they fully understand the ramifications of this. Edited July 20, 2016 by MrM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger-Mouse Posted July 20, 2016 Report Share Posted July 20, 2016 The worry is that a lot of MPs are doing what they like doing best and thinking that the populous can be ignored. Don't hold your breath that they fully understand the ramifications of this. If they don`t the political landscape following the 2020 GE may well be radically different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted July 20, 2016 Report Share Posted July 20, 2016 Looks like the scare mongering in camp are being proved wrong http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/07/20/ftse-100-smashes-6700-but-pound-flounders-below-131-as-investors/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yod dropper Posted July 21, 2016 Report Share Posted July 21, 2016 What lies the remain camp told. £1B Chinese investment for Sheffield. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-36846472 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinfireman Posted July 22, 2016 Report Share Posted July 22, 2016 Alas not. We advocate on behalf of our clients. If you look at the point of law raised in any depth you will see there is an arguable case that triggering Article 50 requires the backing of Parliament. Mishcon de Reya taking the case on behalf of its client does not mean that it is the policy of Mishcon de Reya 'the firm'. It,s "clients" are a bunch of very wealthy people, who are launching this case, not on behalf of democracy, but in the interests of their wallets!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I was going to bring up the same point ie that it`s not necessarily MdR that are pushing the case. As much as it annoys me that there may be a delay in triggering Article 50 a side of me is glad that something that may be unconstitutional is being challenged. Don`t forget that if there does seem to be a case here that the government may simply run it past Parliament with a 3 line whip and just make it go away. If you take a look at the Guido Fawkes website, they name some of the Mishcon "clients".....not a democrat amongst them! The issue here isn't how law forms work, but exactly who is Mishcon de Reya's client? It is in the public interest for this to be divulged and I think that the public have a right to know who is pulling the strings. It is a desperate last gasp of any wealthy individual or organisation to try and tell the government how to do its job and no-one within Government has yet suggested that Article 50 can be triggered without the approval of Parliament, so people are perfectly entitled to ask what the motivation is here? In fact, it's unlikely that May would preside over a government that isn't balanced in thew circumstances and look for fair play in the forthcoming requirements. Any Parliament who could think to block Article 50 would be acting against the will of the majority and it would spell political suicide for that party, possibly triggering a long overdue, needed and radical shake up of the House of Lords. The feelings on this are running very high and it would be a foolish government who ignored that. Such an event seems very unlikely, so it brings us back to why a Law firm has taken on such a case when it knows full well that the party or parties involved will become known. There's nothing new in wealthy individuals or companies trying to influence government. They have been contributing to party coffers since UK parliament was first formed. It's about time their power to influence was curtailed as part of the vote to leave was a vote against business deciding what is best for their profits instead of what is best for the UK as a whole. Anyone who thinks that parliament won't approve Article 50 is onto a loser and I wouldn't personally back that horse. There will be attempts within parliament to block it, but if that is the case, a way will be found as it will do more harm than good at this stage to invoke even more turmoil and uncertainty on the nation, and law, just like politics can be worked around. That's what lawyers are paid for, to find a legal solution. It is also naive to think that just because a law form is a law firm that it wouldn't receive a backlash against the recent announcement. That in no way condones death threats or the like by the neanderthal element in society. The Guido Fawkes website names some of the very wealthy clients....... Aside from the criticism of the people hiring a law firm to check the legality of this matter, it does require total clarity on the process of an decision as big as this. This isn't a cut and dried 70/30 split, but a very small majority. And if the matter is unconstitutional then it would be subject to lengthy challenges and repercussions. Rushing into triggering Article 50, finding it unconstitutional and then the EU refusing to stop the leaving process would be a nightmare politically and legally. Cameron should have and possibly did realise this. The cynic in me thinks that TM knows that if she makes the right noises and allows time to pass, any legal arguments blocking her triggering Article 50 will not reflect on her or her government. Unlike some I don't believe that there would be an uprising if the referendum was effectively annulled. France, Denmark and Ireland also voted against EU policies and are still bound by them. If the vote had been 70/30 maybe a different matter. But 4% isn't really a great mandate. One of those employing Mishcon de doodah, is the owner of Zoopla.......a multi-millionaire....like the rest of the gang.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted July 22, 2016 Report Share Posted July 22, 2016 It,s "clients" are a bunch of very wealthy people, who are launching this case, not on behalf of democracy, but in the interests of their wallets!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you take a look at the Guido Fawkes website, they name some of the Mishcon "clients".....not a democrat amongst them! The Guido Fawkes website names some of the very wealthy clients....... One of those employing Mishcon de doodah, is the owner of Zoopla.......a multi-millionaire....like the rest of the gang.... I would imagine a lot of them are exploiting the European tax fiddles that allow companies to base themselves in Luxemberg or Ireland but then trade here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisjh Posted July 22, 2016 Report Share Posted July 22, 2016 (edited) well chickens are comimg home to roost all the indicators show were entering a down turn in the economy, welcome to the world of Brexit, we will now see the true cost, give it 18 months and the Brexit result will be scrapped Edited July 22, 2016 by chrisjh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrM Posted July 22, 2016 Report Share Posted July 22, 2016 (edited) To be perfectly fair there really is no point either camp trying to score points on whether the economy is good or bad at the moment - all that's happening is that for the next few months it will go up and down. The true test will be once we leave the EU and as we have all acknowledged won't be at least until 2019. Edited July 22, 2016 by MrM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
achosenman Posted July 22, 2016 Report Share Posted July 22, 2016 Tbh I don't really mind too much about the economy. It will recover, unlike the loss sovereignty, accountable government etc. If we have to eat grass for a bit I'd still vote out😁 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yod dropper Posted July 22, 2016 Report Share Posted July 22, 2016 With so many chickens about the discredited remain camp need to make sure they don't get even more egg on their faces following the exposure of their shameful scaremongering and the increasing confidence in the UK economy post-Brexit. Happy days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted July 22, 2016 Report Share Posted July 22, 2016 But 4% isn't really a great mandate. This isn't a cut and dried 70/30 split, but a very small majority. Is anyone seriously saying that this bunch of people, who don't accept Brexit, would accept the verdict of the people if the majority was 5%, 6%, 10%, 20%, or 30%? In a democracy, 1% is enough to govern. Why should different rules apply on this issue? We can go to war on 1%, but not leave the EU. Perhaps the Remain camp could explain just what sort of majority would satisfy them. Perhaps those who can afford to hire a top legal firm to make a challenge - which will involve a cost to taxpayers - could explain why ordinary democracy is not enough for them. They ought to be publically named as they will be running up a bill for the public. I would think more of them if they offered to meet the legal and administrative costs for both sides. Then again, I suspect not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted July 22, 2016 Report Share Posted July 22, 2016 well chickens are comimg home to roost all the indicators show were entering a down turn in the economy, welcome to the world of Brexit, we will now see the true cost, give it 18 months and the Brexit result will be scrapped I think your crystal ball is ****ed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinfireman Posted July 22, 2016 Report Share Posted July 22, 2016 well chickens are comimg home to roost all the indicators show were entering a down turn in the economy, welcome to the world of Brexit, we will now see the true cost, give it 18 months and the Brexit result will be scrapped Aha ! The troll is back! Is anyone seriously saying that this bunch of people, who don't accept Brexit, would accept the verdict of the people if the majority was 5%, 6%, 10%, 20%, or 30%? In a democracy, 1% is enough to govern. Why should different rules apply on this issue? We can go to war on 1%, but not leave the EU. Perhaps the Remain camp could explain just what sort of majority would satisfy them. Perhaps those who can afford to hire a top legal firm to make a challenge - which will involve a cost to taxpayers - could explain why ordinary democracy is not enough for them. They ought to be publically named as they will be running up a bill for the public. I would think more of them if they offered to meet the legal and administrative costs for both sides. Then again, I suspect not. You will find them named on Guido Fawkes website.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted July 22, 2016 Report Share Posted July 22, 2016 (edited) well chickens are comimg home to roost all the indicators show were entering a down turn in the economy, welcome to the world of Brexit, we will now see the true cost, give it 18 months and the Brexit result will be scrapped All what indicators? You must be living in a parallel universe. FTSE is higher than before, foreign investment from China and South Africa etc, Lots of interest in trade deals, Canada, Australia, and US etc ENDEX Edited July 22, 2016 by Vince Green Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savhmr Posted July 22, 2016 Report Share Posted July 22, 2016 (edited) The only reason that the economic forecasts are showing a downturn, backed by IMF forecasts for the UK is that idiots keep talking the economy down! Nothing has changed yet, nothing has been invoked, we're still part of the exact same EU trading conditions as prior to the vote yet a core of big businesses are throwing their collective rattles out of their prams backed by the likes of Branson, presumably because in their greed, they stand to make a little less profit or wont be able to expand into the cheap labour areas of Eastern Europe. These are the very same companies presumably which may have head offices in the Channel Islands or overseas, who employ accountants to effect as much tax avoidance as possible, and who would screw the average UK worker given half the chance. Sod the lot of them, their opinion matters less than that of the 17 million who voted us out of that colossus of a failed experiment which is only heading one way now. Meantime, there are plenty of opportunities on the horizon and plenty of reasons to be cheerful and optimistic, yet still the talking down continues. It's a bit premature folks to be talking anything down. The ONLY scary uncertainty is whether the EU decide collectively to make a stern example of us and to give nothing away. Merkel at least is being reasonable and knows that would harm the EU more than it would us, so common sense we hope will prevail. It is objectionable that greedy business and speculators, none with a shred of loyalty to the UK, are doing so much damage. We'd be better off without them quite frankly. They now know that they don't run the country and call the shots, the electorate do. Edited July 22, 2016 by Savhmr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guest1957 Posted July 22, 2016 Report Share Posted July 22, 2016 All what indicators? You must be living in a parallel universe. FTSE is higher than before, foreign investment from China and South Africa etc, Lots of interest in trade deals, Canada, Australia, and US etc ENDEX Presumably Chris is referring to: http://www.wsj.com/articles/eurozone-economy-continued-to-expand-in-july-1469177599 All what indicators? You must be living in a parallel universe. FTSE is higher than before, foreign investment from China and South Africa etc, Lots of interest in trade deals, Canada, Australia, and US etc ENDEX Presumably Chris is referring to: http://www.wsj.com/articles/eurozone-economy-continued-to-expand-in-july-1469177599 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted July 22, 2016 Report Share Posted July 22, 2016 well chickens are comimg home to roost all the indicators show were entering a down turn in the economy, welcome to the world of Brexit, we will now see the true cost, give it 18 months and the Brexit result will be scrapped😀 I'll bet you're a laugh a minute on a night out! The EU itself may be scrapped in 18 months with a bit of luck. It's only a matter of time before it all goes pear shaped in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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