Brexit - Merged Threads

[sportsbob]

Hi all!

 

This is my impressions as a complete (swede) outsider.

 

Your new PM is either trying to once and for all kill of Boris politically or she really doesn't give a rats a** about foreign affairs. Around here BJ is considered more of up and comming court yester than the potential future king. I wonder if he really thought Brexit would win?

 

Farage will be back, he will never be satisfied with the results of any negotiations and I also think he's too adicted to the bright lights of the big stage.

 

You think that the UK is a too important market to not be allowed back into the free trade union or will easily be able to replace the european products, mainly cars and food?, from other countries.

 

I think that it may be very possible for you to get access to the inner market for goods, since nobody is really concerned about you as a manufactoring nation anymore, but financial services is another matter.

 

You will probably lose that (to Dublin would be my guess), but I guess this is more of a "London vs The rest of the country" situation and not really that high on the agenda for ordnary folk?

 

/Markus

Its just as well we on the whole don`t give a flying (whoops) what you think then isn`t it. The only thing you could be right on is BJ as for food do we realy need to buy food in from Europe when we have millions of acres that the EU pay our farmers to set aside which could produce food and earn money, on a simplistic note the USA has a grain surplus they would be glad to sell to us and there is plenty of New Zealand Lamb we could import with new trade deals already on offer. I think you seem to have an air of EU self importance which is why we want out in the first place.

[Scully]

 

 

My original point was that at this stage, while most aspects and repercussions are not yet apparent, one of the immediate (and entirely foreseeable) consequences has been a surge in emboldened racist behaviour.

 

.

I quite agree that the consequences of a leave vote has been a surge in emboldened racist behaviour, and also that it was entirely foreseeable, but are you suggesting this knowledge was a good enough reason for those with a desire to leave to have voted remain to avoid the consequences?

Racist behaviour was and still is pathetic and unlawfully despicable behaviour, and while I can readily admit the consequences of a leave vote would empower these idiots I can also admit that even with prior knowledge of the consequences I would still have voted leave. If that marks me as racist in the opinion of some then so be it; I'm happy in the knowledge I'm not.

I refuse to be held responsible for the acts of others; and while not wanting to veer off topic, this is exactly why Chrisjh or whatever his name is attracts so much flak when he suggests all those who bemoan the handgun ban should be ashamed of themselves. Skewed logic.

[MrM]

. There have been some good factual points made that have been dismissed by some contributors with unnecessary disparaging and at times vitriolic comments.

 

Its just as well we on the whole don`t give a flying (whoops) what you think then isn`t it.

 

 

Case in point I think!

Edited July 15, 2016 by MrM

[mick miller]

This Martin Shultz SavHMR?

[12gauge82]

Granett, you've come on here and accused several members of being racist and implied that anyone voting brexit wasn't intelligent enough to know what they were doing. You accused members on another post of threatening you in some way which was equally as ridiculous. You seem genuinely confused as to why I and others have had enough of you and your unfounded accusations. It would be stupid of me to claim, like in all of society, that there's nobody on here who holds racist views, but i can assure you that I do not, (probably likewise most of the others you've judged to, although I can't speak for them), I appreciate its hard to communicate via the internet and views can be misconstrued, if you knew me and met some of my friends (several of whom are from several different racial backgrounds by the way) and you knew what I'd spent the past decade doing for my job (I've literally put my life on the line to protect others from harm, regardless of who they are or where they came from), you'd understand why Ive been so offended by your accusations. To reiterate my point, I get its easy to misinterpreted posts and for my part my +1 posts have at times implied I agree with posts in their entirety as apposed to segments of them, which has added to the confusion, I enjoy PW and also specifically the complex debate around brexit, if you'd like to start again I would find it interesting, despite our different views, to continue discussing brexit, I will not however tolerate being called a racist when you know nothing about me or what I've done, that said I genuinely hope we can move on.

[Zapp]

I genuinely hope we can move on.

 

I think anyone remotely interested in the original topic of the thread hopes the two of you and a few others can do that.

 

We have been holding off on closing this thread as there will no doubt be many more developments relating to the Referendum which people will want to discuss, but if it continues to be the same few people knocking lumps out of one another then we will have no choice. Take your differences to PMs now please.

[Granett]

I quite agree that the consequences of a leave vote has been a surge in emboldened racist behaviour, and also that it was entirely foreseeable, but are you suggesting this knowledge was a good enough reason for those with a desire to leave to have voted remain to avoid the consequences?

Racist behaviour was and still is pathetic and unlawfully despicable behaviour, and while I can readily admit the consequences of a leave vote would empower these idiots I can also admit that even with prior knowledge of the consequences I would still have voted leave. If that marks me as racist in the opinion of some then so be it; I'm happy in the knowledge I'm not.

I refuse to be held responsible for the acts of others; and while not wanting to veer off topic, this is exactly why Chrisjh or whatever his name is attracts so much flak when he suggests all those who bemoan the handgun ban should be ashamed of themselves. Skewed logic.

While I've not said it, if I gave the impression that a vote to leave ipso facto makes someone racist, then I apologise- that wasn't my intent. My point was (as ever, despite the accusations, I'm not twisting it - if you go back you can see)that at this early stage, where the larger repercussions to our economy and our sovereignty are not yet apparent, the increase in racist incidents is one of the only demonstrable outcomes and it's pretty horrendous. Whether it was in and of itself reason to effect your vote is down to the individual.

 

+1

 

Well said.

 

It's high time that the more emotive and less grown-up type of arguments, reasoning (if one can call it that) and throw-away semantic statistics were completely ignored in favour of what is actually happening. The semantics behind some of these arguments are incomprehensible as they ignore the true feeling of a majority of those who voted to leave, ans one should be very careful of aligning voters with the words and actions of the campaigns main antagonists who, on both sides, conducted themselves disgracefully.

 

We have voted to exit the EU, and in time I do believe that many who voted to remain will see why and come on side so that we have a truly United Kingdom again. It is a sad testament that many will swing across if the economic outlook continues to improve. That just goes to show how blinkered some are to the motivations of those like Martin Schultz and others of his type within the EU are, and to to those who perhaps voted based on purely economic criteria have done this nation and it's future a great disservice. The Schultz brigade are so detached from reality and indeed from the feelings of many of their own nations, that they will eventually suffer the fate of all such despots and tin hat dictators. True democracy has been hard-won in Europe and a majority are not about to let that be reversed.

While I've been accused of not answering some of the barrage of questions put to me, eg "Are you and your family white?", quite a few of my questions have also gone unanswered, eg (and I paraphrase)"Which EU laws have we adopted that you wouldn't agree to otherwise?" "If the EU institutions were directly elected, would European-wide democracy appease you or is it important that democracy be devolved down to national level?" "If devolution of democracy is important, would you be happy for it to go down to regional level, so that the South East for example could have autonomy?

 

Aside from that, on the basis that every contract represents acceptance of responsibilities that impinge on sovereignty, it will be interesting to see what impingements we sign up to in replacing those placed on us by EU membership.

 

EDIT: Finally pushed the "Post" button on this post which I wrote some time ago, only to see new posts...

Granett, you've come on here and accused several members of being racist and implied that anyone voting brexit wasn't intelligent enough to know what they were doing. You accused members on another post of threatening you in some way which was equally as ridiculous. You seem genuinely confused as to why I and others have had enough of you and your unfounded accusations. It would be stupid of me to claim, like in all of society, that there's nobody on here who holds racist views, but i can assure you that I do not, (probably likewise most of the others you've judged to, although I can't speak for them), I appreciate its hard to communicate via the internet and views can be misconstrued, if you knew me and met some of my friends (several of whom are from several different racial backgrounds by the way) and you knew what I'd spent the past decade doing for my job (I've literally put my life on the line to protect others from harm, regardless of who they are or where they came from), you'd understand why Ive been so offended by your accusations. To reiterate my point, I get its easy to misinterpreted posts and for my part my +1 posts have at times implied I agree with posts in their entirety as apposed to segments of them, which has added to the confusion, I enjoy PW and also specifically the complex debate around brexit, if you'd like to start again I would find it interesting, despite our different views, to continue discussing brexit, I will not however tolerate being called a racist when you know nothing about me or what I've done, that said I genuinely hope we can move on.

Happy to move on. Apologies for any offense or unfounded or mistaken assumptions. Edited July 15, 2016 by Granett

[pinfireman]

Whatever the outcome of Brexit in terms of trade agreements etc the immediate and demonstrable damage already done is the clearly foreseeable emboldenment of racists and the harm to our global reputation:-

 

"Great Britain or ‘Little England’? ‘Brexit’ Vote Revives an Old Tension" - The New York Times

"BRITISH LOSE RIGHT TO CLAIM THAT AMERICANS ARE DUMBER" - The New Yorker

 

 

Another valuable contribution from 12gauge82 I see.

What utter rubbish!! You have to trawl through the world,s Press to find a quote? What in God,s name has the New Yorker got to do with this? How are they even qualified to comment? Most of them do not even know where the UK is.....give them a map and they will probably point to New Zealand! And what "damage" has been done? The stock market rose again , the pound levelled off, and today is rising....You lost! Get over it! Or it will continue to make you an even more bitter old man !

[Granett]

You're a few pages behind.

[pinfireman]

http://metro.co.uk/2016/07/08/brexit-racism-more-than-3000-hate-crimes-reported-in-just-two-weeks-5994553/

 

What other stuff do you make it a habit to deny? The Holocaust?

What garbage you spout! I find you so funny, I was feeling depressed after last nights attack in Nice, came on here, read your posts, and collapsed with laughter! You should be on the stage (there,s one leaving soon)!

I think I am missing something here. Non British voters had no vote.

Yes, you are.....600,000 were "mistakenly" allowed to vote!

[pinfireman]

The generalisations were all assumed by other posters.

 

But..

 

In this debate (where you'd assume racists would be at their most guarded) there were at least three racist comments (ignoring other threads - where I remember at least one "A lot of immigrants are smelly" comment - and also ignoring those posts agreeing or saying +1 to the racist posts).

 

How many contributors are there to the debate? For ease, say 50 contributors.

 

While not all those voting to leave are racist, every racist voted to leave. Bizarre to claim otherwise.

 

Pigeon Watch seems overwhelmingly in favour of leaving. Say 98 percent for ease.

 

So extrapolating the PW figures, 3/49 leave voters were unable to conceal their racist views. Over 5% of the vote leave camp.

 

And that ignores those who are intelligent enough to hide their racism and ascribe their decision to other reasons.

 

Whether PW is more or less racist than the rest of those who voted to leave can be argued, and the figures can be jigged, but it will always represent a large chunk. (Which is what - if you look - I have always said. Not that you're all racists).

 

Interesting section on C4 news last night:-

 

http://youtu.be/ieZSGSzWYOE

Define "racism"

[pinfireman]

Hi all!

 

This is my impressions as a complete (swede) outsider.

 

Your new PM is either trying to once and for all kill of Boris politically or she really doesn't give a rats a** about foreign affairs. Around here BJ is considered more of up and comming court yester than the potential future king. I wonder if he really thought Brexit would win?

 

Farage will be back, he will never be satisfied with the results of any negotiations and I also think he's too adicted to the bright lights of the big stage.

 

You think that the UK is a too important market to not be allowed back into the free trade union or will easily be able to replace the european products, mainly cars and food?, from other countries.

 

I think that it may be very possible for you to get access to the inner market for goods, since nobody is really concerned about you as a manufactoring nation anymore, but financial services is another matter.

 

You will probably lose that (to Dublin would be my guess), but I guess this is more of a "London vs The rest of the country" situation and not really that high on the agenda for ordnary folk?

 

/Markus

Surely you will be too busy in Sweden in closing your borders to the mass migration taking place in Europe, to notice poor little Britain......The smart betting is that the EU will fail within 10 years! The euro is struggling, the Italian banks collapsing, Greece is a basket case, as is Portugal. Spain is not far behind! Denmark is close to having a referendum of its own, as is The Netherlands....and the German and French people are fed up with propping up the whole mess.... We will be OK... just watch this space! But you will sink back into obscurity.....but never mind, you will have the European Song Contest to look forwards to... Let,s face it, besides Volvo and Abba, what have you ever contributed to the world?

Wow, some really big assumptions here. No one not native would vote to leave?

 

Okay, after recent surgery, as I lay recovering from anesthetic, I spoke to the nurse attending me (originally Indian) about Brexit. She voted Leave.

 

The the nice anesthetist came over, a lovely man originally from Pakistan, he had voted to Leave.

 

Later that day, whilst recovering at home, the window cleaner came round for the bi-monthly clean. Piotr, who came to the UK from Poland 8 years ago and now a British citizen, also voted to Leave. We had an interesting chat, he likened the EU as very similar to the politics of the former USSR and it was hard to question his personal experiences as, fortunately, I have never experienced living under a communist regime.

 

My own father came from West Berlin in the former Soviet controlled East Germany back in the 60s, he is still a German citizen, who lives here as a resident. My mother, whose father was a Polish war hero and mother was French, considers herself British and why wouldn't she? She was born here.

 

A product of that continental mix, I voted to leave. Simply because I believe completely in the principals of a democratically elected government that represents it's electorate. The EU doesn't.

Very well said!

[Scully]

While I've not said it, if I gave the impression that a vote to leave ipso facto makes someone racist, then I apologise- that wasn't my intent. My point was (as ever, despite the accusations, I'm not twisting it - if you go back you can see)that at this early stage, where the larger repercussions to our economy and our sovereignty are not yet apparent, the increase in racist incidents is one of the only demonstrable outcomes and it's pretty horrendous. Whether it was in and of itself reason to effect your vote is down to the individual.

.

Personally, I hadn't regarded your posts as inferring I was racist, I was merely pointing out that being regarded as such wouldn't have altered my vote, so no offence taken and therefore no apology needed.

I agree, it is horrendous, and perhaps it would stand Farage in good stead to openly condemn these incidents if he hasn't already. I sincerely don't believe he would condone acts of racism, and though some would jump at the chance to suggest otherwise, there is a big difference between wanting controls on immigration and being a racist.

Edited July 15, 2016 by Scully

[pinfireman]

You're a few pages behind.

Just catching up........

[MrM]

Surely you will be too busy in Sweden in closing your borders to the mass migration taking place in Europe, to notice poor little Britain......! But you will sink back into obscurity.....but never mind, you will have the European Song Contest to look forwards to... Let,s face it, besides Volvo and Abba, what have you ever contributed to the world?

 

Wow - condescending or what! Maybe you should read Miroku-fan's post #548

Edited July 15, 2016 by MrM

[Nuke]

I don't know. How about the propeller? Dynamite? The wrench? The AGA lighthouse/stove? And of course the absolutely totally unforgettable fermented herring.....

 

/M

[pinfireman]

I don't know. How about the propeller? Dynamite? The wrench? The AGA lighthouse/stove? And of course the absolutely totally unforgettable fermented herring.....

 

/M

Explosives came from China 500 years before Nobel refined them into dynamite! Perhaps you had not noticed that the business, and banking language throughout the world is English?

[pinfireman]

Wow - condescending or what! Maybe you should read Miroku-fan's post #548

Perhaps you should have read Nuke,s original comment before offering a criticism on my response to him (which was, by the way, tongue in cheek). It would appear that condescension is Nukes middle name.....

Just heard that 40,000 of the signatures on the petition to have another referendum actually came from a server within the Vatican......strange seeing as how there are only 800 people there?

[Gordon R]

I don't know. How about the propeller? Dynamite? The wrench? The AGA lighthouse/stove? And of course the absolutely totally unforgettable fermented herring.....

 

 

Propeller - invented by Archimedes - Greek

 

Dynamite - the Chinese.

 

The wrench - Solymon Merrick - American. If you are getting confused with a movable wrench, that was invented by Richard Clyburn - English

 

The AGA - Gustaf Dalen - Swedish.

 

One out of four correct. I trust your grasp of international relations and World politics is better.

[MrM]

Not good news coming out of Turkey this evening

[digger]

attempted coup. thought that was a thing from the 70s. Sadly shows it to be a third world country which is where most coups occur

Edited July 15, 2016 by digger

[amateur]

 

 

 

Dynamite - the Chinese.

 

 

 

The AGA - Gustaf Dalen - Swedish.

 

One out of four correct. I trust your grasp of international relations and World politics is better.

 

Gunpowder- the Chinese,

but the combination of unstable nitro-glycerine and kieselguhr (a clay) to make a stable, handleable, useful, blasting explosive was undoubtedly Alfred Nobel's Swedish achievement

 

so two out of four

[Gordon R]

amateur - point taken.

[pinfireman]

 

Propeller - invented by Archimedes - Greek

 

Dynamite - the Chinese.

 

The wrench - Solymon Merrick - American. If you are getting confused with a movable wrench, that was invented by Richard Clyburn - English

 

The AGA - Gustaf Dalen - Swedish.

 

One out of four correct. I trust your grasp of international relations and World politics is better.

Thank you Gordon.

attempted coup. thought that was a thing from the 70s. Sadly shows it to be a third world country which is where most coups occur

and they want Turkey fast-tracked into the EU???????? Seems as though we really did make the right decision.......to Leave!

 

Gunpowder- the Chinese,

but the combination of unstable nitro-glycerine and kieselguhr (a clay) to make a stable, handleable, useful, blasting explosive was undoubtedly Alfred Nobel's Swedish achievement

 

so two out of four

One and a half......Nobel had something to work with....gunpowder!

[Danger-Mouse]

 

 

, quite a few of my questions have also gone unanswered, eg (and I paraphrase)"Which EU laws have we adopted that you wouldn't agree to otherwise?"

 

"If the EU institutions were directly elected, would European-wide democracy appease you or is it important that democracy be devolved down to national level?"

 

"If devolution of democracy is important, would you be happy for it to go down to regional level, so that the South East for example could have autonomy?

 

 

 

 

I did attempt to answer the first question quite some time ago. However it`s a difficult one to answer given that even legal experts struggle to identify which laws came directly from the EU and which are only influenced by directives or other forms of EU legislation. A couple of obvious ones would be free movement and the regulations regarding our fishing industry. TBH though it doesn`t really matter whether I agree with 99% of them, it`s the 1% that I disagree with and have no way of changing. That goes against our unwritten constitution.

 

"There are a number of associated characteristics of Britain’s unwritten constitution, a cardinal one being that in law Parliament is sovereign in the sense of being the supreme legislative body. "

 

We have a legal system that is the envy of the world, that has a thousand years of history behind it and has formed the basis for a great number of democratic legal systems across the world. I don`t wish to lose that to a bunch of technocrats that I have no control over.

 

Question 2.

 

No in all honesty I don`t think I would be happy even if I had the right to vote on who was to become the EU president. It`s simply too big an area with too many radically different economic situations for it to run effectively. Let`s say we had party elections across europe on a PR voting system. How many different parties would end up in government? It would be chaos, hardly anything would ever get done. Here I might not get the government I vote for but at least in theory whichever party wins I know they are working towards the betterment of the UK. The same might not be true with a europe wide government. It might not be forward thinking but I believe a national government is the better option.

 

Question 3

 

No. By `eck as tempting as the Kingdom of Yorkshire might be it`s not really viable. I do think that some level of regional autonomy should be allowed but there needs to be an overall vision. I realise that`s almost a contrary argument to the one I`ve given above but again I`m looking at the national interest.

 

I`m happy with our constitutional monarchy with a sovereign parliament. I don`t want to be part of a technocratic federal state. I`m happy for us to trade with the world, to help and assist our neighbours, for people to come here to work and live but I want us to be able to make the decisions as to how we do that.

Edited July 16, 2016 by Danger-Mouse