adi786 Posted July 21, 2016 Report Share Posted July 21, 2016 hi guys, Just wanted to know a bit as came across first time, was returning from a stalk, and on way back home saw a deer hit by a car was still alive.. was almost about to get below my car. I passed by it, came back parked road side and went to get him off road before get below another car, it was a female young muntjac, couldn't see any visible injurious, after a bit i tried to get him up on his feet to see if leg etc broken or damaged and he stood but couldn't move, probably was still in shock/scared heart beat was massive could be felt easily. Meanwhile a police car came and they stopped, and helped. They didn't call anyone they just wanted to move him to the side and go on. To be honest i didn't had same feelings for munti as what i would "if i see the same munti in field". Anyways i've moved him into a long grass few yards off road, where he stood for a bit and then sat again. I wasn't sure what i should do as can't see visible wound/blood etc. What is the best to do in such situation? Are we allowed to put them off if no public around as it was quite far from town, and was able to put him off without anyone being noticing, but again i didn't felt to do so, as i had a gut feeling that he be fine, just in shock. What is the best approach, as would like to see a deer like that again in worst conditions (alive) ..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonepark Posted July 21, 2016 Report Share Posted July 21, 2016 (edited) Most likely internal bleeding, best to put down immediately. As part of a course i were instructed and practiced on dead deer as how to slit thoat and sever spine with knife as quickly as possible (often ended up with whole head severed). If returning from a stalk with rifle or shottie, acceptable to put down with that. Edited July 21, 2016 by Stonepark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saddler Posted July 21, 2016 Report Share Posted July 21, 2016 Did the LANTRA course on this.... Police matter. Taking matters in hand yourself would be a big no no legally for several reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalconFN Posted July 21, 2016 Report Share Posted July 21, 2016 Did the LANTRA course on this.... Police matter. Taking matters in hand yourself would be a big no no legally for several reasons. That's interesting but oddly counter intuitive as ending suffering should really take precedence over obscure laws. Out of interest, what laws would you be breaking (excluding issues with firearms)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zipdog Posted July 21, 2016 Report Share Posted July 21, 2016 I was wondering about this too.... if you was on your way home from clay shooting and found a badly wounded deer and kept driving, could you not also be guilty of causing unnecessary suffering to animals. After all if a Doctor drives past a road accident and doesn't stop they can be found guilty of negligence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adi786 Posted July 22, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2016 I was wondering about this too.... if you was on your way home from clay shooting and found a badly wounded deer and kept driving, could you not also be guilty of causing unnecessary suffering to animals. After all if a Doctor drives past a road accident and doesn't stop they can be found guilty well well agree, that's the reason wanted to know what is the best approach, as in future if i can see such poor animal in pain, wouldn't like him to suffer long... also was thinking to ask officer if i should get my rifle out and put him down, then i waslike na as they were more intersted to move on quickly ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluesj Posted July 22, 2016 Report Share Posted July 22, 2016 Not sure what laws you would or could fall foul of ( will follow this with interest )but don't forget no good deed goes unpunished. Just because you do the right thing as we would see it doesn't mean others would see it that way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDog Posted July 22, 2016 Report Share Posted July 22, 2016 I would have slit it's throat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeon controller Posted July 22, 2016 Report Share Posted July 22, 2016 I passed a deer limping badly across the road on land I shoot and the farmer came passed and ask me to shoot it , which I did on his land. On inspection it had a broken thigh bone, if I'd found it on the road I would have put it out of its misery quietly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted July 22, 2016 Report Share Posted July 22, 2016 Not entirely a legal grey area but when u add firearms into the mix it definately becomes 1. Even if i had a gun with me i would not use it on an injured deer without having permission to shoot there, potential whole can of worms if somone complains The correct answer is probably phone the police or 1 of the tracking org's (uksha, ukdtr) i realise polis on scene weren't bothered but they won't want the hassle if call came throu the control room might be different. It will also depend how mobile the deer is, how dangerous it could be any flaying antlers, hoofs or heads, and how busy/fast the road is and how many spectators are watching. I've came acess quite a few RTA deer and usually just PTS them with a knife to throat (but u could do the same with a knife into chest cavity), ideally if everyone was an expert the atlas joint would be way to go, but most folk (me included) are not skilled enough to find it on dead deer never mind a moving live deer (also meant to use a special knife, narrow with slight bend). After speaking to a vet in the future i'd now hit it with something heavy over the head first to stun it, then bleed it out When i done my dsc1 a good few years ago the advice then was u can use any means possible if u think animal is suffering, they even said clubing with a fence post would be ok. The 1 problem u do have is if wot u have done looks to be inhumane or cause more suffering. Esp so if u have an audience of others watching, most will be wanting a vet to come and save it, not put it to sleep, and don't understand the stress there cuasing it by being so close to it. If i can safely grab a deer and i suspect its hurt i'd just PTS it there and then (but theft if u take carcas) i used to find a lot of deer hung in fences and originally tried to free them, now i don't bother just get the knife. The stress u put on the deer trying to free it from fence and coupled with the usual injuries they have. When u butcher them for dog meat usually the back leg is almost dislocated at ball joint torn or ripped tendons and ligaments, the pain they must be in must be unbearable, sure quite a few would survive but also sure many would limp away to die in agony or get ate by something. If u were out stalking and seen a deer limping badly or u suspected it had been hit by a car it would go straight to the top of cull list so don't see the point of helping a deer out of a fence now to suffer for a long time when if u seen same deer 10mins/days later u would be culling it Think at end of day u have to use some common sense and be able to justify ur actions, justify they were humane and that u believed the animal was hurt/suffering and u were trying to ease the pain. If there is a lot of folk watching ur possibly better just to leave it alone Saddler wot are the legal reason u should be leaving it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adi786 Posted July 22, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2016 thanks for the input guys, i've spoken to my FEO this morning as well, and he said u could have put him off but be careful, as if some other passing by car see you and no police involved at that time, and if they make a complaint i .e. someone is shooting a deer u might get into trouble. I then told him police car was passing by and they stopped to help, he said if they weren't intersested to ring any Deer Vehicle Collision team, u could have asked them, i.e. if they like you can put him off his misery as you got a firearms in ur car. So logically i think what best is to ring police, and get them involved, and maybe get their permission to put him off. Looking forward to get more inputs.. would be beneficial for a lot more people as well which might face same situation or might have faced in past. Apart from main subject, best place to put him off using shotgun would be neck? as close range head would be a bit mess? thanks above all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted July 22, 2016 Report Share Posted July 22, 2016 Not sure the police can actually give u permission to use a gun on some one elses ground and doubt a lot would as could make them laible if anything goes wrong It would depend on ur experience but even if i had a gun available i would still use a wheel brace/hammer and knife combo, if ur not confident enough to do that ur as well phoning it in, or if deer quite mobile. To many grey areas if u use a gun in an area where u have no permission, not something i'd do. If u are going to shoot it close range it won't really matter where u shoot it or size of shot, shot will travel as a ball at close range, head is norm but chest at close range would also kill it esp on small deer, mibee not so lethal chest shooting with small shot/longer ranges on large deer thou. Just bear in mind any richochet risks etc fter it passes throu the deer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbiep Posted July 22, 2016 Report Share Posted July 22, 2016 I seem to recall that the BDS has a leaflet showing where the shot should be placed for maximum effectiveness. It's basically just above the eyes, aiming the barrel in line so the the shot path would be down the neck.. At very close range, any shotgun shell acts like solid slug. Even a 410 will produce a devastating wound through a skull bone. I'd not go for a neck shot. The objective must be to minimise suffering, which a brain shot is far more likely to accomplish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbiep Posted July 22, 2016 Report Share Posted July 22, 2016 As to legality, it would be up to the person involved to show, in a courtroom, that their actions were necessary to minimise suffering. As to dispatching a deer without landowner's consent, the guidance to the CPS states that "It is a defence to a charge under Section 1(1) (entering land in pursuit or search of deer without consent) or Section 1 (2) (killing or taking deer without consent) to show that the accused acted in the belief that s/he would have had the consent of the owner or occupier of the land if he knew the circumstances of it, or that he had other lawful authority. So, if a deer was badly injured in a collision and struggled into a nearby field, you could lawfully dispatch it, as long as you thought that any reasonable landowner would not object to such actions. It's all very subjective, and very much on a case-by-case scenario. The law was written to allow reasonable people to carry out reasonable actions. The only problem is that you might be the one having to defend those actions in a courtroom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted July 22, 2016 Report Share Posted July 22, 2016 Robbie are u sure about the last part? (well 2nd last sentance) I know the law is very different from England to Scotland on this, in Scotland u can legally cross boundries to track a wounded deer but in eng u can't. Know the deer dog tracking boys have problems with that and heir only tracking injured deer and will not crss any boundries no matter how close they are to deer. I'd be very very careful about using guns atall for PTS, but then u have to be very careful about njuries to urself if u don't use a gun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaunda Posted July 22, 2016 Report Share Posted July 22, 2016 I would have slit it's throat. Facing Mecca I would hope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted July 22, 2016 Report Share Posted July 22, 2016 (edited) You will all probably remember the incident this time last year when two Durham firearms officers were sent to dispatch an injured deer. They killed it with a crowbar and were moved from firearms duties pending investigation for gross misconduct. Early this year they were found guilty of gross misconduct, they have received a final written warning and moved to other duties. So, would I get involved - No. I would phone the police and report it and walk away. Life is too short to get involved with the fallout from bunny huggers and the like just for an injured deer. This is an interesting article on the subject http://www.ishootmag.com/features/countryside-law/dispatch-best-practice/ Edited July 22, 2016 by CharlieT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twistedsanity Posted July 23, 2016 Report Share Posted July 23, 2016 I thought that muntjac was an invasive species which would have made a difference in law? Probably wrong though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted July 24, 2016 Report Share Posted July 24, 2016 I thought that muntjac was an invasive species which would have made a difference in law? Probably wrong though... Indeed you are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted July 24, 2016 Report Share Posted July 24, 2016 I thought that muntjac was an invasive species which would have made a difference in law? Probably wrong though... Muntjac are still deer so fall under deer/poaching laws and of coarse animal welfare laws, it would be an offence for a vet/animal charity to take it in treat/heal it and then release it as non native. Quite a good article linked charlie. Must admit i'd still happily use a tyre iron/hammer and knife again if i came across an injured deer again, but i would use common sense and be very careful if anybody was watching, and would possibly leave it if i thought was going to get grief or thought it was too moblle/dangerous to get close. But it will depend on ur experience and confidence, and have ur eyes open to wot may go wrong legally and with the deer or other traffic The last fallow buck i done in hindsight was slightly too mobile and alive and i could of got myself hurt quite easily, think it was still slightly stunned, but stalker was a good bit away and i was on scene within seconds, must admit glad i done it as the blokes mrs came back with a spade and the bloke that hit it was going to try and do it himself, woud probably not be a nice thing for him to live with if it didn't go well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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