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Are older Berettas REALLY better than new?


sanibel686
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I've always liked Berretas, between me and my son we've had a few over the years. I currently don't have one but he still has his 687 20 bore. It's an early one with the solid silver pigeon on the top lever.

So, I'm looking around for another O/U and I'm in the same position as I always am, with 4 choices.

New(ish) Berreta
Old(ish) Berreta
Browning
Miroku

Now, just sticking with Berretas for a moment, in my head these are 4 choices and not 3 choices because I've had it drummed into me that old and new Berretas are so different in terms of "quality" that they may as well come from different factories.

1, starting with the silver pigeon they did a sort of nickel plated receiver and I've seen these peel on a number of guns. Apart from it looking poor cosmetically I think it's a really bad idea from an engineering point of view to have plated mating surfaces which momentarily sustain such high pressure at the corners during gun assembly.
2, You also have the swirly blue paint pretending to be colour case hardening which lasts as long as my daughters nail varnish before chipping off.
3, I did hear that when they "value engineered" the barrels they became heavier and thicker, not sure if this is true.

So what is Really true about quality over the years?? do any members have any insights/insider information?

Edited by sanibel686
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If Berettas fit you then there is a good chance Brownings won't, they don't fit me. I own a 1990's 20 bore 687 and have just bought a new 692 Sporter and both are very nicely made and perform faultlessly. There were some early 690 series guns that were very stiff to open and some had very stiff safeties. I think they were maybe rushed out of the factory due to high demands and their Inspection wasn't as good as it should have been but that seems to be sorted now from the guns I have recently looked at when buying mine. My advice would be don't be scared buying a new Beretta but buy it in the flesh so you can open it and try the safety and get a feel for the build quality etc etc, I don't think you will be disappointed. The only issue where I would say the old guns were better would be the finishing of the wood but a few coats of walnut oil by yourself soon sorts that out.

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All makes will have failures.if you are turning out around half a million units a year you are bound by the law of averages to have more failures than others making significantly less.i have heard of quite a few issues with the 725 Browning's a couple of friends sold their perazzi because of problems with the barrels.krieghoff double discharging. If browning or any other maker was to overtake beretta with volume then they to would be slammed over quality.and exactly what qualifies some of those who criticise the most to do so. most will have absolutely no engineering background let alone being capable of actually building a gun from scratch.i have several beretta's and of all ages and will say I have never had a problem with any of them.one thing I always do is only buy from dealers who have a fully qualified gunsmith in house that will spend time talking to you about the gun you are looking at.they will also have checked and cleaned the stock as it arrives unlike the pure salesman who could not care less what you leave the shop with as long as it is not your cash.beretta are not the biggest selling most popular sporting gun for nothing and any company that churns out poor items will not stay long in business.

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How far do we go back for old ? The S56/S57 were well made for their day but far too light arguably even for serious field work and I've only come across 28" barrels which made for a rather unsteady gun.

 

Some swear the old spec 682 were better made than the 682e, I've owned both and am at a loss what they mean ! I have no experience of the newer 692 series but accept Berretta have let themselves down in consistency of quality if you go by the number of complaints but then again I'd take one of those over the old 682 which were known for being dead in the hands with poor handling !

 

You can sort the odd fault or two but very hard to breath handling into a dead gun. What people also forget is that the 692 is a £2600 quid gun so shouting the odds from the roof tops comparing it to £5k's worth of Blazer or £3500 grands worth of CG is not really comparing like with like.

 

IF Beretta got their knickers out of its current twist by making a few small changes to the 692 and spent another few hundred quid on quality issues to retail the thing for £3-£3200, then it will still cane everything else out there, just like the old days. The reason being they are still the oldest company in the world with the infrastructure and machining might that goes with it.

Edited by Hamster
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How far do we go back for old ? The S56/S57 were well made for their day but far too light arguably even for serious field work and I've only come across 28" barrels which made for a rather unsteady gun.

 

I can't comment on the 'new' ones, but I do have an S57 - which has 28" barrels, and weighs about 7 lbs, 6 oz. It is towards the light end of the range, but I wouldn't call it 'far too light' at all. It carries its years lightly, having required no mechanical attention at all (and it is about 40 years old and has done plenty of work) - and I find that it has no noticeable recoil with normal clays/game loads (i.e. in the range 28 to 32 grammes). It is also very pleasant to carry all day in the field.

For serious competition - or 'extra high' pheasants - it isn't perhaps ideal as those scenarios need something a bit specialist, but for an all rounder, I would regard it as a very good, well made and long lasting gun - which is why I still have it after 35 years or so ownership (bought second hand).

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Looking at an EELL, I don't like the fixings on show under the forend of a gun of that price. Also, it appears that they fit a large and ugly trigger guard on the single trigger models so that they can offer double triggers on order but don't need to fit a different guard. Just my opinion, but it looks like cutting corners to me, expected maybe on a much cheaper gun?

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I think a lot of the criticism regarding Berettas stems from the time of the introduction of the 692.

There was such a demand I feel QC suffered as a result; with misaligned pins and woodwork unfinished.

It seems they are back on the ball from what I can gather.

I'm not a Beretta fan but definitely a Browning fan. Saying that I still prefer older Brownings to the modern ones, and wouldn't buy a modern one, purely from an aesthetic point of view.

Edited by Scully
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Talking to a very well know rfd in these parts about the early 692s and some of the problems with them ( ejector cams ) he said in all the years I've selling them he's only ever had to send one back. He's and approved beretta dealer and service.

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Hamster

 

Sorry to go off track a bit but can you explain this comment "You can sort the odd fault or two but very hard to breath handling into a dead gun." seems a strange thing to say

 

The minor faults on the 692 such as the lever sticking etc, are usually fixed within days, what remains is essentially a good chassis to work with. What is much harder to achieve is to pick up an uber reliable gun such as an 80`s 682 and try and shave enough metal off the action :lol: or remove the mid rib in an attempt to fix that nose heavy, dead feel for which it was famous for, which Beretta fixed rather beautifully by the introduction of the 682e.

 

Before going too deep into this let me first say that I think this dubious term "handling" is hugely misunderstood and over/misused. I am a rather bombastic sort when it comes to stuff I know about :lol: but the good news is that I am right.

 

People often pick a gun up and fling it from side to side in a gunroom and happily declare that it handles well and that they could shoot it because it fits like a glove. :rolleyes: What makes a gun easy to fling about is its weight V your personal muscle power - essentially speaking light guns appear to handle well, how a gun's wood/grip feels is also a function of its fit which is entirely alterable so again nothing to do with handling.

 

Handling is nowt to do with feel, appearance, fit, grip, weight, blah blah but quite simply the little two digits that appear on the end of your score card. :yes: Handling is how a gun starts and finishes the whole round, handling is whether it needs to be driven or whether it drives itself, whether it can tackle driven with the same ease it can tackle quartering targets, crucially handling is not about smoking the first pair (easy most of the time) but whether its inherent confidence inspiring lack of movement under recoil and steadiness (without feeling dead) prevent your brain from wandering off and continue to repeat the same thing time after time - building scores in other words.

 

I am not saying that there aren't people out there who prefer nose heavy guns and do very well too but for most people light barrels (under 1500 gm and all the way to 1400 gm) is where it's at, it's that simple. This is why the 682e was such a runaway success, this is why the Parcours was/is such a runaway success, this is why so many prefer the older Mirooks, it is also why there are sooooo many old spec regular K80's trying to find new owners :yes: it is also why the Zoli Kronos was/is a bit of a miserable marketing exercise.

 

You need a gun with lightish barrels for the mass ESP market and this simple fact continues to elude people in charge of hundred year old gun makers. This is why it makes me laugh when people get teary eyed about the old 682 cos it was well made, if you want a reliable work of engineering fine but if this gun still delivered the sort of scores that are needed today then you can bet your bottom dollar someone would be using it to win big with and they don't, good gun, great even but flawed and out of date spec.

 

So back to why it's hard to breath handling into guns, because the core spec needs to be right from the off, fine tuning to make it suit you is different altogether but the design has to be right to begin with.

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The 692's are diabolical in my opinion, I have had two first one had to be replaced by GMK for faults undisclosed to me plus the faults I had with it. The 2nd one even though it had been double checked by GMK had the standard top lever jamming with less than 250 cartridges fired through it. A friends 692 the stock retaining bolt snapped as he fired the gun and he was left with it in two halfs.

 

Poor quality should not happen to such a company, it would appear they are putting more into churning them out of the door rather than reliability, now sold all my Beretta's. :(

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The 692's are diabolical in my opinion, I have had two first one had to be replaced by GMK for faults undisclosed to me plus the faults I had with it. The 2nd one even though it had been double checked by GMK had the standard top lever jamming with less than 250 cartridges fired through it. A friends 692 the stock retaining bolt snapped as he fired the gun and he was left with it in two halfs.

 

Poor quality should not happen to such a company, it would appear they are putting more into churning them out of the door rather than reliability, now sold all my Beretta's. :(

 

so what do you shoot now ?

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Now shoot 95% of the time a Browning 525 32" special edition, came with beavertail forend and adjustable stock as standard, had the gun set up for me and now achieved a PB in skeet of 24 out of 25 this week.

 

you used to have a different opinion

 

 

Browning 525 problem

 

 

I mainly shoot with a beretta SV10 or other Beretta's without any problems.

I thought I would give the 525 a run out today, since having the cast altered to suit me. I soon ended up with a sore shoulder never had one before (using lyvale express pro comp 28G, just to try and finish old stock off).

On a full days shooting I will get through 250 carts and the same applied today normally with out problems.

Found no problem with the sighting, even surprised myself getting pairs with one shot (several times). Just could feel the thump in my shoulder all the time, now its still aching a bit several hours later

Thinking its time to cut my losses with the 525 and replace it with a beretta (prob the SP 1 sporter, to go nicely with the game version). What was suggested was replace the but pad with a gell one.

As a test tried a friends 686E as well today and felt no thump

Edited by stevo
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