cartridge94 Posted September 30, 2016 Report Share Posted September 30, 2016 Good evening guys! I am a sucker for Side by Sides, I don't know whether it makes me look classy or whether its the feel of the gun when I am shooting.I have owned a Ugartechea Model 30 in 12 bore for a number of months now and I am in two minds about the purchase of another. either an English Side by Side or a Hammer gun. I think it's the lovely exposed hammers which is drawing me to the idea of a Hammer Gun, or the rich history of owning a piece of fading English engineering and shooting history.What are your views chaps? What should I look for in English Side By Sides and Hammer Guns?Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
figgy Posted October 1, 2016 Report Share Posted October 1, 2016 Same things as in any gun,condition and how it fits you. Barrel wall thickness and condition is a must,how much use has it seen. No point buying a gun with no bluing left and smooth chequering. Proof is another thing to check is in date and chamber length. Best bet for what you want is Wabbitbosher,give him a shout and see what he has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruno22rf Posted October 1, 2016 Report Share Posted October 1, 2016 Plenty of guns with worn checkering and no bluing left out there are still capable of another hundred years of use and tend to be far cheaper than guns that have been moth balled for many years - the thought of working on such guns puts people off and thus prices can be really low. If you allow £300 for the particular issues mentioned (and they tend to be the most common) then picking up a rough looking gun for a couple of hundred pounds will give you a stunning piece to use once the work is done for the price of a Turkish semi. Talking to young Mr Hadoke the other day and he mentioned that he has a book out soon on this very subject - you would be wise to buy a copy as there is little that this man does not know about English guns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rimfire4969 Posted October 1, 2016 Report Share Posted October 1, 2016 (edited) I have a hundred and something year old Fred Williams hammer gun, I use it on our syndicate Boxing Day shoot and also if I go for a walk around or sit in a hedge. I just love the idea of the history and what the gun has been through. There was a nice on on sale new a few days ago, I will see if I can find it. http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/344399-osbourne-charles-12-gauge/ I do know the seller and he is a great guy. Edited October 1, 2016 by rimfire4969 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin55 Posted October 1, 2016 Report Share Posted October 1, 2016 (edited) Plenty of guns with worn checkering and no bluing left out there are still capable of another hundred years of use and tend to be far cheaper than guns that have been moth balled for many years - the thought of working on such guns puts people off and thus prices can be really low. If you allow £300 for the particular issues mentioned (and they tend to be the most common) then picking up a rough looking gun for a couple of hundred pounds will give you a stunning piece to use once the work is done for the price of a Turkish semi. Talking to young Mr Hadoke the other day and he mentioned that he has a book out soon on this very subject - you would be wise to buy a copy as there is little that this man does not know about English guns. The Hammers Guns book is available now, I've got a copy having pre-ordered https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hammer-Guns-Practice-Diggory-Hadoke/dp/1910723258 I do love the feel of the old guns, especially hammer guns Edited October 1, 2016 by kevin55 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted October 1, 2016 Report Share Posted October 1, 2016 The late last King Edward, I think it was? Once said "a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears"..... I have both hammer and hammerless......for me the hammers are so tactile..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackpowder Posted October 1, 2016 Report Share Posted October 1, 2016 Like other posters I am a great fan of antique guns my current stable consists of :- John Dickson Round Action Built 1889 W.R.Pape box lock ejector Built 1914 Army and Navy Hammer Gun Built 1898 and cost when new £7 : 0 :0 owned by me since circa 1960. Definately something about the feel of those old S x S guns and often wonder on their previous owners and what they shot with them back in blackpowder days. Blackpowder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted October 1, 2016 Report Share Posted October 1, 2016 Buy quality. There were loads of hammer guns (and boxlock side by sides) built varying from cheap Belgian (and some others) to high grade items. The lowest quality were just made to a price and will never gain quality. The best were beautifully made - and to a quality as high as any other type of gun. If you are buying to 'use', don't be put off by sleeving - provided it is done so that the gun still handles and balances well - poor sleeving can make a gun muzzle heavy because the striking down of the barrels adds time (cost) to the process. Sleeved guns will never have the same value as original barrelled guns, but can be great to use. Get any prospective gun checked out by someone who knows what they are doing; thin barrel walls, oil soaked wood and bad tightening are all things that may not be obvious to the inexperienced - and are often hard/expensive to get right. Ultimately, you are buying something of considerable age, that will have had a number of owners - not all of whom may have looked after it well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buze Posted October 1, 2016 Report Share Posted October 1, 2016 Does anyone know if a hammer gun that wasn't nitro proofed can still be proofed and brought up to 'modern' standard? How much would that cost? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin55 Posted October 1, 2016 Report Share Posted October 1, 2016 (edited) This may help https://www.durham.police.uk/Information-and-advice/firearms-and-firearms-licensing/Pages/Reproof.aspx Vintage Guns is a good site - it's his Hammer Guns book on my post above, p138-9 talks about re-proofing hammer guns Edited October 1, 2016 by kevin55 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TONY R Posted October 1, 2016 Report Share Posted October 1, 2016 One of the best value for money english guns you can buy is the humble BSA SxS they are very well made strong not the lightest game gun out there, but they handle superb. I mean a gun you can buy for around 150 quid english with jessops fluid steel barrels locks up as solid as a magnum and the open bored first barrel and tight half second about cover anything your likeley to encounter rough shooting, and thats from 100 years ago to today, BSA got something right with those guns. Hammer guns can vary in quality old ones from well known makers purdey holand and holand etc, too in the white birmingham trade guns with Some iron mongers name on the rib, most are 2.5 inch chambers it tends to be latter guns mostly continentals that have 23 quater chambers 70 mm .. If your looking for a wall hanger or cabinet gun 65mm is ok, but if your intending acctualy using it on a regular basis in the field the 70mm chambers will be handy. German gunmakers turn out some very nice hammerguns and you can still find them sometimes but hammerguns have been well picked over over the past 15 to 20 years, the British obssesion with slagging off everything decent we ever made in favour of cheaper less worthy products from abroad left the door wide open for those in the gun trade to buy up all the hammerguns they could from ever back street gun dealer they could find and ship them abroad where our guns were being appreciated while we were obssesed with buying some Italian OU to tote up the trap club. So finding a good english hammergun although not impossible wont be any where as easy as it once was, the boat as largely left on that one im afraid. Belgian hammerguns can be ok but some of them are crude cheap offerings low end budget guns made to fullfill a need some of them only just managed to acchieve. If your wanting a hammer gun a few names i think are a good longer chamber offering you could use refgularly and with most modern ammo would be Bredas they made hammer guns, of decent quality, good quality guns and largely overlooked by the gun trade here, but most these days are on to the hammer gun thing and charge a premium for anything. Another italian offering of less quality but robust enough is the armi san marco guns, these are not as well made as bredas but far more comon and worth considering. Armialia luchini make hammer guns as do mavi fias sabatti to name just a few, Italian hammereguns are more prolific than spanish hammer guns, There are a few spanish hammer guns about but not so many AYA did a couple as did zabala heremanos but not common over here. Good belgian names obviously FN fabrique nationale and in french guns manufrance mac RAF and others made hammer guns in various quality. Germans are good quality but most seemed to be old guns well before the war not esspecialy popular here for obvcious reasons and i guess some came back as war relics. American hammer guns are rare here but you see the odd one lefever ithaca remingtom marlin all turned them out in number an American hammer gun would be a great find, if you find one be sure to post up some pictures. Last but not least the offerings from Baikal or to be more accurate about it tula toz these were from post war catalouge specials to the present day but few have been imported recently i think york brough a few in in the mid to late 90s but not sure any can in post the melenium. Good thing about these tulas ...Baikal they are hard chrome barrels suitable for even steel, even the old cataloge guns were hard chrome back in the post war years, and some of those specials had plated engraved actions on them and decent woodwork. It all depends what you want a shooter or a project classic to restore. Its tragic we are not in a possition to buy a new hammergun from a still mainstream english gun making firm like good old BSA but sadly like the motorcycles which bear this name its all a part of history now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruno22rf Posted October 1, 2016 Report Share Posted October 1, 2016 Around half my guns are 65mm (2 1/2") TONY R and I am rather disappointed to learn that they are only good for hanging on my wall or tucking in the cabinet - going to miss using them most weekends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TONY R Posted October 1, 2016 Report Share Posted October 1, 2016 Around half my guns are 65mm (2 1/2") TONY R and I am rather disappointed to learn that they are only good for hanging on my wall or tucking in the cabinet - going to miss using them most weekends. Well let me put it another way, if you want to use them without reloading or buying 65 or 67mm loads your in trouble, 70mm is just a way of knowing you can run any clay or pigeon game loads in the gun with little if any compromise. Not saying you cant shoot one, but its not without its draw backs thats my point, it never puts me off 16 bores in the same vein but again you have more to plan than just getting whats there in this day and age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.C Posted October 2, 2016 Report Share Posted October 2, 2016 Still looking for one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SxS Posted October 2, 2016 Report Share Posted October 2, 2016 Does anyone know if a hammer gun that wasn't nitro proofed can still be proofed and brought up to 'modern' standard? How much would that cost? You can indeed get a reproof - one of mine has been nitro proofed during its life (and is now fed Three Crowns without any hassle at all) - if this post is right then circa £50 should see you done: http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/263411-reproofing-costs/ However... there's obviously a risk that it'll fail, leaving you with some (expensive?) scrap metal. Aside from Teague's service to fully line barrels with modern steels (I believe they've stopped doing this now), or having the barrels sleeved, I'm not aware of any upgrade options. I am sure Just Cartridges used to list black powder cartridges, but no longer on their website. I'd be tempted to give them a shout before going down the re-proof route... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fizzbangwhallop Posted October 3, 2016 Report Share Posted October 3, 2016 (edited) The Hammers Guns book is available now, I've got a copy having pre-ordered https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hammer-Guns-Practice-Diggory-Hadoke/dp/1910723258 I do love the feel of the old guns, especially hammer guns Cracking link.... went through and ordered one and it arrived yesterday. Had a quick skim through it, read a couple of bits in depth and it's well-written and informative without bogging you down in too much detail.... buy it. With regard to getting bp damascus barrelled hammer guns re-proofed I took my late-father's Blanch into Ladbroke and Langtons just off the A5183 between Park St and Bushey to see if they thought there was enough meat in the barrels to get it nitro'd. Dad had always thought it might be touch and go and when he measured the walls, the gunsmith said there was more in there than the Purdey he was just lapping out..... and he could take the chambers out to 70mm. Couple of weeks later... rang him to ask how it had got on.... "Oh, that old thing.... blew itself apart in proof" Aaaargghh! Lots of cursing my foolishness at my end which turned to cursing him as he followed it up with "Only joking! Flew through proof and it's sitting here waiting for you.... lovely gun" and he was right... it is a beautiful gun, ok not much to look at but class doesn't need fancy engraving, it balances, patterns and swings as it was born to and it kills like anything out there with normal loads... I only ever stick 21/2" 28 6's through it on beaters days... I did know the choke but as Diggory says in his book these old gun perform very well with little choke. Clays-wise it get's 24g clay carts through it on occasion.... sometimes even 21g. My mate borrows it for the English side by side clay comp over at Atkin Grant and Lang's at Markyate in preference to his old nail He's got one hand on it if i ever peg it before him (wishful thinking!) It's always had a tendency to perforate the odd primer on the right hand barrel to the point it had eroded the FP hole in face. A few years ago I worked out the spring on that side was twice the weight of the right and it was this combined with the erosion that was allowing the pin to almost 'stroke' down across the primer and stretch it with the odd one perforating and exacerbating the problem. Rather than going straight to the expense of a new spring, Ladbrokes ground some off the existing spring so it's now down to a much more acceptable comparison with the other. (Easier on the cocking thumb too ) Cheers Fizz Edited October 3, 2016 by fizzbangwhallop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruno22rf Posted October 4, 2016 Report Share Posted October 4, 2016 I must be losing something in the translation TONY R - what's so difficult in buying 65mm cartridges?- there's hundreds to choose from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demonwolf444 Posted October 4, 2016 Report Share Posted October 4, 2016 Plenty of good 65 mm cartridges, my preference being hull comp x for clay and hull imperial game for.. well game. Love my old guns, if your buying guns to sell on always "buy the barrels" - as this is where most of an older guns value is. But if your buying guns for yourself that you use and appreciate buy something that is of decent quality and don't get so hung up on wall thicknesses that way you can often beat the market and get something that's really quite nice for not too much. Hammer guns don't seem to have been doing so well at auction of late ( from what i have seen ) so now could be a good opportunity to pick up something nice. - I think the threat of the potential lead shot ban scared people off them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feltwad Posted October 4, 2016 Report Share Posted October 4, 2016 (edited) A stand of provincial hammerguns by local gunmakers Feltwad Edited October 4, 2016 by Feltwad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buze Posted October 5, 2016 Report Share Posted October 5, 2016 @Feltwad what a display!! All yours? :-) BTW Since I've now got one -- where/what do you buy these black powder 12g carts? I looked on google, and there's nothing to be found... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demonwolf444 Posted October 5, 2016 Report Share Posted October 5, 2016 Black powder cartridges are costly - Game bore used to load black powder but i think they ran about 18 quid a box. I just got my black powder ticket and load my own - I get my primed hulls from henry krank at £7 for 50, powder wads and lead from kranks then have a couple evenings just loading up before the pheasant season. Obviously if the guns nitro proofed you dont need the hassle - hull imperial game 26 gram is a hard hitter that i have always had very good results with from older guns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruno22rf Posted October 5, 2016 Report Share Posted October 5, 2016 I seem to recall that "just cartridges" bought the remaining Gamebore stock of BP cartridges a few years ago - they then sold them @ £25/box roughly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feltwad Posted October 5, 2016 Report Share Posted October 5, 2016 @Feltwad what a display!! All yours? :-) BTW Since I've now got one -- where/what do you buy these black powder 12g carts? I looked on google, and there's nothing to be found... I load my own black powder cartridges in all bores and have done for many decades For a 12 bore the load will be a volume load of 2.3/4 drms of meduim black powder to 1.1/8 oz of shot always use card and felt wads never use plastic it will ruin your gun .The method is has follows, powder,1/8 over powder card wad ,Felt or Kleena wad,, 1/8 card wad, shot, 1/16 over shot wad finish with a rolled turnover. Feltwad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buze Posted October 5, 2016 Report Share Posted October 5, 2016 Well, reloading is definitely not an option for me; unless I'd somehow pick a sudden and inexplicable interest in shooting BP, all I'd be looking at is buying a slab and shoot that a couple of times a year really... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feltwad Posted October 5, 2016 Report Share Posted October 5, 2016 Well, reloading is definitely not an option for me; unless I'd somehow pick a sudden and inexplicable interest in shooting BP, all I'd be looking at is buying a slab and shoot that a couple of times a year really... Well you have the gun use it maybe a couple of times have heard this said many times but black powder shooting can become an addiction once you try it Feltwad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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