JohnfromUK Posted June 22, 2017 Report Share Posted June 22, 2017 Quid pro quo?...........Knighthoods, seat in the lords? Must have gone up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saddler Posted June 22, 2017 Report Share Posted June 22, 2017 Must have gone up! If the LibDems were running the shop it's a case of must have gone down.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted June 23, 2017 Report Share Posted June 23, 2017 (edited) Now HOTPOINT are being found LIABLE! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40380584 Edited June 23, 2017 by TIGHTCHOKE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted June 23, 2017 Report Share Posted June 23, 2017 I read on line that fridges, freezers and fridge freezers are the most common fire initiators in the home. There seem to be some underlying high risks which I hadn't really appreciated; Refrigerant nowadays is either pentane or propane, both of which are highly inflamable and under high(ish) pressure. - It used to be CFC based refrigerants (e.g. R12) which were non inflamable, but these are greenhouse case substances and are prohibited now. Insulation is now often expanded polystyrene (again highly inflamable and spreads fire by melting/dripping - and gives of toxic fumes. I believe in the past glass fibre or mineral wool was used, and also possibly some other non inflamable or at least fire resistant foams but I'm not certain of this. Frost free types (or at least some of them) have a heating element to defrost the heat exchanger. Failure of the switch that controls these can cause them to overheat, initiating the fire apparently. Rear covers on some models are plastic and allow fire to spread very quickly as it allows air in. (older and metal rear panels limited air and so slowed fire spread). Added to this - even those who are careful and turn off risky appliances when out /at might (tumbler driers being the classic example) can't do this with refrigeration equipment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tandytommo Posted June 25, 2017 Report Share Posted June 25, 2017 I read on line that fridges, freezers and fridge freezers are the most common fire initiators in the home. There seem to be some underlying high risks which I hadn't really appreciated; Refrigerant nowadays is either pentane or propane, both of which are highly inflamable and under high(ish) pressure. - It used to be CFC based refrigerants (e.g. R12) which were non inflamable, but these are greenhouse case substances and are prohibited now. Insulation is now often expanded polystyrene (again highly inflamable and spreads fire by melting/dripping - and gives of toxic fumes. I believe in the past glass fibre or mineral wool was used, and also possibly some other non inflamable or at least fire resistant foams but I'm not certain of this. Frost free types (or at least some of them) have a heating element to defrost the heat exchanger. Failure of the switch that controls these can cause them to overheat, initiating the fire apparently. Rear covers on some models are plastic and allow fire to spread very quickly as it allows air in. (older and metal rear panels limited air and so slowed fire spread). Added to this - even those who are careful and turn off risky appliances when out /at might (tumbler driers being the classic example) can't do this with refrigeration equipment. I don't think that what started the fire is the main point, people do stupid things and appliances go wrong, so many people died because of the ferocity of the fire and the speed with which it spread. I suspect that because these refurbishment contracts are so valuable the investigators will just have to follow the money to find out who is culpable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted June 25, 2017 Report Share Posted June 25, 2017 I don't think that what started the fire is the main point, people do stupid things and appliances go wrong, so many people died because of the ferocity of the fire and the speed with which it spread. I suspect that because these refurbishment contracts are so valuable the investigators will just have to follow the money to find out who is culpable. I do agree, but had always considered fridges/freezers relatively safe ...... compared to say tumbler driers, or in the old days, TV sets (when they ran very hot). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted June 25, 2017 Report Share Posted June 25, 2017 I do agree, but had always considered fridges/freezers relatively safe ...... compared to say tumbler driers, or in the old days, TV sets (when they ran very hot). There was an issue with Beko in the last few years but I too was under the impression that refrigerators were usually safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mice! Posted June 25, 2017 Report Share Posted June 25, 2017 We got a beko after they had trouble because it was cheaper due to the bad name affecting sales?? Didn't realise until all this happened that a fridge now contains flammable liquids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted June 25, 2017 Report Share Posted June 25, 2017 Didn't realise until all this happened that a fridge now contains flammable liquids. That is the same as me; In addition to the refrigerant according to one report supposed to be from the London Fire Brigade, the average fridge foam insulation now contains the same amount of energy in flammable material as 4 gallons of petrol! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tandytommo Posted June 25, 2017 Report Share Posted June 25, 2017 I do agree, but had always considered fridges/freezers relatively safe ...... compared to say tumbler driers, or in the old days, TV sets (when they ran very hot). Me too, tumble driers always been an issue, fluff & heat not a good mix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted June 28, 2017 Report Share Posted June 28, 2017 The fridge freezer in the Grenfell fire was around ten years old apparently. It was a model that spanned 2006-2009 reportedly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twistedsanity Posted June 28, 2017 Report Share Posted June 28, 2017 Most refrigerants also give off mustard gas when they meet with a flame, many fridge engineers found that out by smoking cigarettes when regassing fridges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keg Posted June 28, 2017 Report Share Posted June 28, 2017 Makes interesting reading. http://news.sky.com/story/mp-accused-of-grenfell-fire-conspiracy-over-death-count-10929306 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted June 28, 2017 Report Share Posted June 28, 2017 (edited) Unfortunately it does seem likely that we may never know the exact total of fatalities. However, the police and fire services have great experience in these matters and handle these things in a careful and structured way to try and ensure that wild 'rumours' don't start based on scant evidence or 'here say'. It must be very very difficult to get names and numbers and I am sure that the police and fire authorities are doing their absolute best. For an MP (who is not actually even the local MP) to be 'stirring' is poor, though I do understand he has probably lost a friend in the tragedy. For so called 'celebrities' to be stirring is frankly despicable - as is the allegation that the victims were 'murdered' coming from a senior politician over the weekend. There are times when I do wish we had readily available 'gagging orders' for such people. These comments do no good and can cause distress to people who are already unfortunate victims of dreadful circumstances. Edited June 28, 2017 by JohnfromUK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted June 28, 2017 Report Share Posted June 28, 2017 137 Failures so far and 100% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted June 28, 2017 Report Share Posted June 28, 2017 For so called 'celebrities' to be stirring is frankly despicable - as is the allegation that the victims were 'murdered' coming from a senior politician over the weekend. The idiots, who say the people were murdered, hide behind their tasteless generalities. Never once do they name someone, who has committed "murder", thus enabling that person to sue for libel or slander. I regard them as cowards who lack the courage of their own conviction. Scum of the lowest order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted June 28, 2017 Report Share Posted June 28, 2017 The idiots, who say the people were murdered, hide behind their tasteless generalities. Never once do they name someone, who has committed "murder", thus enabling that person to sue for libel or slander. I regard them as cowards who lack the courage of their own conviction. Scum of the lowest order. What does that matter to people like John McDonnell? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted June 28, 2017 Report Share Posted June 28, 2017 McDonnell would probably see it as a compliment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
four-wheel-drive Posted June 28, 2017 Report Share Posted June 28, 2017 I read on line that fridges, freezers and fridge freezers are the most common fire initiators in the home. There seem to be some underlying high risks which I hadn't really appreciated; Refrigerant nowadays is either pentane or propane, both of which are highly inflamable and under high(ish) pressure. - It used to be CFC based refrigerants (e.g. R12) which were non inflamable, but these are greenhouse case substances and are prohibited now. Insulation is now often expanded polystyrene (again highly inflamable and spreads fire by melting/dripping - and gives of toxic fumes. I believe in the past glass fibre or mineral wool was used, and also possibly some other non inflamable or at least fire resistant foams but I'm not certain of this. Frost free types (or at least some of them) have a heating element to defrost the heat exchanger. Failure of the switch that controls these can cause them to overheat, initiating the fire apparently. Rear covers on some models are plastic and allow fire to spread very quickly as it allows air in. (older and metal rear panels limited air and so slowed fire spread). Added to this - even those who are careful and turn off risky appliances when out /at might (tumbler driers being the classic example) can't do this with refrigeration equipment. All that they seem to be talking about is the cladding being flamable but from what I seen of it on TV the cladding that started burning but behind it was a space with several inches of fome and it looked to me that it was this fome that was burning very fast and the flames just shot up underneath the cladding yet that is hardly talked about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted June 28, 2017 Report Share Posted June 28, 2017 The practice of cladding buildings is a fairly recent thing, and the regulations hadn't anywhere near kept pace. That's the truth of it, no big conspiracy. Stupid certainly, but not murder as John McDonnell tried to claim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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