Rewulf Posted August 30, 2017 Report Share Posted August 30, 2017 As you are probably aware, one of the main points of contention on the Brexit 'deal' with the EU is the Irish border. Forgive me for perhaps missing something here, but why is it such a problem ? Why is it even an issue for the EU to get involved in, surely its between Ireland and the UK and the Northern Irish assembly to sort out. Is it a customs issue, or a people movement issue ? Are they just using the whole thing as an excuse to cause disharmony in the talks ? Im not entirely sure how it works at the moment, is it just an open border, or are there passport/ID checks ? Can it not just be left like that, or am I being thick ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted August 30, 2017 Report Share Posted August 30, 2017 It is going to be an awfully long raft ride to Dublin! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted August 30, 2017 Report Share Posted August 30, 2017 As you are probably aware, one of the main points of contention on the Brexit 'deal' with the EU is the Irish border. Forgive me for perhaps missing something here, but why is it such a problem ? Why is it even an issue for the EU to get involved in, surely its between Ireland and the UK and the Northern Irish assembly to sort out. Is it a customs issue, or a people movement issue ? Are they just using the whole thing as an excuse to cause disharmony in the talks ? Im not entirely sure how it works at the moment, is it just an open border, or are there passport/ID checks ? Can it not just be left like that, or am I being thick ? EU open borders...UK closed borders....how can citizens of the Irish Republic (EU territory) get free movement into Northern Ireland (UK Territory) When the UK wishes to close and control its borders from the free movement of EU citizens?......that is the problem!........Stop free entry into the UK by citizens of all EU countries......except one! The Irish Republic!....that's the difficulty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted August 30, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2017 EU open borders...UK closed borders....how can citizens of the Irish Republic (EU territory) get free movement into Northern Ireland (UK Territory) When the UK wishes to close and control its borders from the free movement of EU citizens?......that is the problem!........Stop free entry into the UK by citizens of all EU countries......except one! The Irish Republic!....that's the difficulty. I understand the principle, but does that mean that Switzerland ,Norway ect ,have no free movement from EU countries ? I cannot fly or sail into Ireland without a passport/border check, but if I have already entered Northern Ireland, I can drive straight over (at the moment) What exactly is the problem of keeping that arrangement ? Many borders are porous, or just not policed, ask the various nationalities at the French 'jungle' camps how they got there for instance. It just seems like an insignificant problem to me, when compared to the bigger issues of Brexit, and again, what has it really got to do with Brussels? When did we put them in charge of border issues, and what would they do if we decided to deal with the issue ourselves, throw us out ? Or is that what they are trying to achieve, a bad split ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted August 30, 2017 Report Share Posted August 30, 2017 U might be surprised how many folk already do that to get into UK if there not meant to I used to have some kiwi mates working in the UK well outwith there visa and anytime they wanted to go to Europe the had to travel up to stranraer and down to dublin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjm Posted August 30, 2017 Report Share Posted August 30, 2017 As you are probably aware, one of the main points of contention on the Brexit 'deal' with the EU is the Irish border. Forgive me for perhaps missing something here, but why is it such a problem ? Why is it even an issue for the EU to get involved in, surely its between Ireland and the UK and the Northern Irish assembly to sort out. Is it a customs issue, or a people movement issue ? Are they just using the whole thing as an excuse to cause disharmony in the talks ? Im not entirely sure how it works at the moment, is it just an open border, or are there passport/ID checks ? Can it not just be left like that, or am I being thick ? This a big problem. Stormont is an absolute shambles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted August 30, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2017 U might be surprised how many folk already do that to get into UK if there not meant to I used to have some kiwi mates working in the UK well outwith there visa and anytime they wanted to go to Europe the had to travel up to stranraer and down to dublin Not surprised at all, and thats why the whole question of this 'burning ' issue got me thinking. Storm in a teacup ? Or a deliberate attempt to cause a problem that never really existed. This a big problem. Stormont is an absolute shambles I understand that too, but thats a problem for the 2 parties to sort out between themselves. If they cant put their bickering aside ,for the good of the people, then they are not fit to govern are they ? Perhaps the EU can intervene in that one for us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjm Posted August 30, 2017 Report Share Posted August 30, 2017 Not surprised at all, and thats why the whole question of this 'burning ' issue got me thinking. Storm in a teacup ? Or a deliberate attempt to cause a problem that never really existed. I understand that too, but thats a problem for the 2 parties to sort out between themselves. If they cant put their bickering aside ,for the good of the people, then they are not fit to govern are they ? Perhaps the EU can intervene in that one for us never in a million years will that happen unfortunately. yet they still get elected on the basis of keeping the other side out. sad but true Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iano Posted August 30, 2017 Report Share Posted August 30, 2017 U might be surprised how many folk already do that to get into UK if there not meant to I used to have some kiwi mates working in the UK well outwith there visa and anytime they wanted to go to Europe the had to travel up to stranraer and down to dublin This is a well known issue People with a valid UK visa fly over to Belfast (or get the boat from scotland) and get the train down to Dublin. Not much point in cracking down on it as most of them head back, they just want a few drinks and a night or two out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krugerandsmith Posted August 31, 2017 Report Share Posted August 31, 2017 As you are probably aware, one of the main points of contention on the Brexit 'deal' with the EU is the Irish border. Forgive me for perhaps missing something here, but why is it such a problem ? Why is it even an issue for the EU to get involved in, surely its between Ireland and the UK and the Northern Irish assembly to sort out. Is it a customs issue, or a people movement issue ? Are they just using the whole thing as an excuse to cause disharmony in the talks ? Im not entirely sure how it works at the moment, is it just an open border, or are there passport/ID checks ? Can it not just be left like that, or am I being thick ? They could always give the north back to the south after all they did vote to remain in Europe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsonicnat Posted August 31, 2017 Report Share Posted August 31, 2017 They could always give the north back to the south after all they did vote to remain in Europe They are too die hard to think that mate,,Willy and all that,,its ingrained in the blood.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iano Posted August 31, 2017 Report Share Posted August 31, 2017 They could always give the north back to the south after all they did vote to remain in Europe No thanks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted August 31, 2017 Report Share Posted August 31, 2017 The real problem is money; the EU is about to loose one of it's net contributors when the UK leaves. Their budget, already out of control and increasing will have less 'contributors to pay for it. They have no real accounts (auditors have refused to sign them for years as they are largely 'fictional'. Holland, Sweden, Germany, Denmark, Finland, Austria France and the UK plus small net contributions from Italy and Ireland 'prop up' all of the others. Guess the biggest (per person) beneficiary ........ Luxembourg ....... in itself a rich country, but guess what - its where Jean Claude Juncker comes from!!!! https://inews.co.uk/explainers/charts/much-uk-pays-eu-much-get-back/ If the UK gets a 'good deal' and is seen to do well outside the EU, both Holland and Ireland are likely to be watching closely as they have very significant doubts, especially Holland. Therefore to stop the whole house of cards falling down, the EU, (and particularly Barnier and Juncker) are determined to 'punish' the UK as much as they can to discourage others from leaving. The Irish border is a serious issue, but their real aim is to punish us, particularly financially, as mush as they possibly can. For us to have a successful and prosperous life 'post EU' would be a major disaster for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted August 31, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2017 . The Irish border is a serious issue, but their real aim is to punish us, particularly financially, as mush as they possibly can. For us to have a successful and prosperous life 'post EU' would be a major disaster for them. So I keep hearing, but why does it have to be? Cannot the UK and Ireland come to an arrangement between themselves, or would the EU not allow that ? Its seems strange that the only time we hear of this 'serious issue' is when the EU negotiators are bleating on about it. You cannot enter either country from the UK or beyond without a customs/passport check, but can pass freely between the two once there (mostly, I believe, please correct me if Im wrong) So when one is EU and one isnt, what difference will it actually make? One has the euro ,one the £, so its not really a monetary issue, Im sure plenty of people shop across the border already,and will continue to do so. Free movement of people already exists across Europe and has done for decades, before many of the countries now making up the bloc joined. Like I said earlier, there are plenty of people from outside the bloc, wandering around at will, no one seems too fussed about them ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted August 31, 2017 Report Share Posted August 31, 2017 The Republic was a separate country to the UK long before they both joined the EU......pre EU membership, I fished regularly in the south for many years, and was made aware that it was normal for the people of the Republic to cross the border without hindrance, to shop and take advantage of the cheaper price of goods in the North!........so unofficially crossing the border to and fro has always taken place.....the difficulty is making freedom of cross border travel official, in order to satisfy EU scrutiny? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted August 31, 2017 Report Share Posted August 31, 2017 They could always give the north back to the south after all they did vote to remain in Europe Yeah they could give Scotland and Wales back to England while they are at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted August 31, 2017 Report Share Posted August 31, 2017 No thanks... + 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr D Posted August 31, 2017 Report Share Posted August 31, 2017 The UK/Ireland common travel area predates either country joining the EU. Free movement in and between the people of these islands is not an issue for either country. The bi-lateral treaty already exists. It is only an issue because the EU wants to make it one. But it seems today that this might be the first thing sorted out in the negotiations according to reports coming out from Brussels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iano Posted August 31, 2017 Report Share Posted August 31, 2017 The Republic was a separate country to the UK long before they both joined the EU......pre EU membership, I fished regularly in the south for many years, and was made aware that it was normal for the people of the Republic to cross the border without hindrance, to shop and take advantage of the cheaper price of goods in the North!........so unofficially crossing the border to and fro has always taken place.....the difficulty is making freedom of cross border travel official, in order to satisfy EU scrutiny? The UK and Ireland have had for many years (going back to the 1940s or so I think, could have been back further) agreements in place that meant there was effectively free travel either way. this is why when you land in a UK airport and you are coming on an Irish flight, there is no passport control. Unfortunately, when we both joined the Common Market in the 70s, those agreements were replaced by the EU freedom of movement, so when the UK leaves there si no longer any such agreement in place. 1 will get you 20, however, that the old agreements will make it back on the statute books in some shape or form as no one wants to see a return to the troubles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted August 31, 2017 Report Share Posted August 31, 2017 So I keep hearing, but why does it have to be? Cannot the UK and Ireland come to an arrangement between themselves, or would the EU not allow that ? Its seems strange that the only time we hear of this 'serious issue' is when the EU negotiators are bleating on about it. You cannot enter either country from the UK or beyond without a customs/passport check, but can pass freely between the two once there (mostly, I believe, please correct me if Im wrong) So when one is EU and one isnt, what difference will it actually make? One has the euro ,one the £, so its not really a monetary issue, Im sure plenty of people shop across the border already,and will continue to do so. Free movement of people already exists across Europe and has done for decades, before many of the countries now making up the bloc joined. Like I said earlier, there are plenty of people from outside the bloc, wandering around at will, no one seems too fussed about them ? I'm not an expert, but I don't believe that as a member of the EU, Ireland is allowed to enter into any border agreements itself without their permission. Just as we can't enter into any trade agreements etc with non EU countries until we are formally 'out'. Whilst we are all in the EU, it is 'open borders' between member states ........... but when we leave the Irish border will be an EU/non EU border - and as such may need to apply tariffs, duty, restrictions as well as immigration controls (if any). However the EU (ever co-operative) won't even talk about what the deal on UK/EU trade will be until after the financial deal, border deal etc. so we won't know if there will have to be duties and tariffs - which does make it rather difficult to decide what needs to be applied at the border. I firmly feel that they wish to take us to the cleaners financially as a 'divorce settlement' which is why they are insisting on that first. Whilst I'm not a Boris supporter, I rather think he may have the answer with his 'whistle for it' unless they come up with something reasonable to just cover any genuine financial commitments we have made. However with their accounting shambles, no one really seems to understand what we are committed to financially - which is pretty poor, but sadly not a surprise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted August 31, 2017 Report Share Posted August 31, 2017 (edited) 1 will get you 20, however, that the old agreements will make it back on the statute books in some shape or form as no one wants to see a return to the troubles. And their won't be , that is recklessly being talked up by anti brexiteers who are still trying to use project fear. Edited August 31, 2017 by ordnance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
39TDS Posted August 31, 2017 Report Share Posted August 31, 2017 You cannot enter either country from the UK or beyond without a customs/passport check, but can pass freely between the two once there (mostly, I believe, please correct me if Im wrong) Don't know if things have changed recently but I have travelled to Ireland (Holyhead to Dublin) many times with no passport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted August 31, 2017 Report Share Posted August 31, 2017 Don't know if things have changed recently but I have travelled to Ireland (Holyhead to Dublin) many times with no passport. Nothing has changed, no passport needed. Common Travel Area. The Common Travel Area (CTA; Irish: Comhlimistéar Taistil) is an open borders area comprising the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Ireland, the Isle of Man, and the Channel Islands. The British Overseas Territories and Gibraltar are not included. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matone Posted September 1, 2017 Report Share Posted September 1, 2017 So how does the EU handle the border with Switzerland ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iano Posted September 1, 2017 Report Share Posted September 1, 2017 So how does the EU handle the border with Switzerland ?? They had an agreement back as far as the 70s. There have been some amendments to this over time, but they neogtiate with the EU as block, as opposed to having different treaties with Italy, France, Austria etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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