Catalan thugs

[Hamster]

From Marcus Papadopoulos (google him for his credits) :

 

If Spain was outside of NATO and the EU, the West would be talking about "the regime in Madrid".

 

He is one of dozens on social media with similar thoughts.

[matone]

Unlucky for them they're not in the Middle East because by now the US would have supplied them with fleets of brand new Toyota trucks and machine guns and called them friendly rebels.

..and then deserted them when it suited & labelled them terrorists....

[matone]

Devolution of small areas isn`t a good idea imho.Look at the mess Scotland & Wales have made of the running of Gt Britain.

 

Spanish authorities are acting for their whole country ,I imagine.

Edited October 2, 2017 by matone

[Munzy]

To clear things up:

 

- Not all *Catalans are pro-independence.

 

- Not all police and Guardia Civil are anti-Independence.

 

- Not all non-*Catalans are anti-independence.

 

*Catalans being those born in Cataluña who speak the language and not including those living in Cataluña but born in other regions of Spain.

 

My family live in Girona, earlier generations were from Barcelona, all are anti-Independence despite my late grandfather being exiled after fighting Franco. None of them voted because they feared getting caught up in yesterday's events which they thought would actually turn much worse than they did.

 

Despite their views all of them are disgusted with the heavy handedness and felt freedom of speech by way of a vote should have been allowed.

 

The issue is that even if Madrid had said, "Have your vote but the result is irrelevant and won't be recognised", the Catalan leaders would've started dismantling financial and legal links with Madrid the next day.

 

Now it is claimed that 90% of Catalans support Independence and yet only 700k votes were cast. Most won't have voted because they understand the vote to be illegal and the threat of violence to be high.

 

Therefore NOBODY can say what the "Catalan" people actually want, least of all those counting ballots in yesterday's referendum.

[Munzy]

...and as an after thought, the analogy of Scotland or Wales breaking away is completely different; they are different countries. Cataluña is Spain, one of many regions with unique customs, language, outlooks but part of Spain nonetheless. The correct analogy is London or Liverpool voting to leave England.

Edited October 2, 2017 by Munzy

[Paul1440]

It wasn't recognised by the Spanish goverment. What checks were in place that the count was valid and people didn't vote several times etc. Who's to say that the 90% of the 50% of the population weren't cohersed into voting for independance?

Perhaps the other 50% who didn't vote would have voted against but fearful of voting.

We don't even know if both side had the chance to debate or challenge each other.

[Munzy]

It wasn't recognised by the Spanish goverment. What checks were in place that the count was valid and people didn't vote several times etc. Who's to say that the 90% of the 50% of the population weren't cohersed into voting for independance?

Perhaps the other 50% who didn't vote would have voted against but fearful of voting.

We don't even know if both side had the chance to debate or challenge each other.

Exactly

[Rewulf]

...and as an after thought, the analogy of Scotland or Wales breaking away is completely different; they are different countries. Cataluña is Spain, one of many regions with unique customs, language, outlooks but part of Spain nonetheless. The correct analogy is London or Liverpool voting to leave England.

 

Im sorry but youre wrong, the analogy is entirely correct, Catalonia was once an autonomous self governing principality, much like Wales and Scotland once were.

And in my opinion the Scottish referendum is entirely comparable, except in this situation, the Spanish government refused them theirs.

And you know why they refused it?

Because they know full well they would vote to leave, taking 20 % of Spains GDP with them.

[ferguson_tom]

And you know why they refused it?

Because they know full well they would vote to leave, taking 20 % of Spains GDP with them.

 

So what would you expect a government to do then? Roll over and let billions of pounds walk away....dont think so.

 

People cant just decide they dont like being part of a country and demand to leave, same with Scotland. They were allowed a referendum by the UK government, if it wasnt allowed there was sweet fa they could do about it.

[lister22]

I was shocked to see all the granny bashing

[12gauge82]

 

So what would you expect a government to do then? Roll over and let billions of pounds walk away....dont think so.

 

People cant just decide they dont like being part of a country and demand to leave, same with Scotland. They were allowed a referendum by the UK government, if it wasnt allowed there was sweet fa they could do about it.

I'm not so sure, in a democracy majority should rule regardless of if the decision is liked or not. The amount of force used to suppress the people from holding a democratic vote I think is a disgrace.

The same goes for Scotland and Northern Ireland, I wouldn't like to see either one leave but if that's what the people of those areas choose then they should be allowed to do it, that's democracy.

[Rewulf]

 

So what would you expect a government to do then? Roll over and let billions of pounds walk away....dont think so.

 

People cant just decide they dont like being part of a country and demand to leave, same with Scotland. They were allowed a referendum by the UK government, if it wasnt allowed there was sweet fa they could do about it.

 

Err ,so if Scotland had voted to leave, what would have happened then ?

 

The same goes for Scotland and Northern Ireland, I wouldn't like to see either one leave but if that's what the people of those areas choose then they should be allowed to do it, that's democracy.

 

Exactly , the only difference with the Catalans , was the central Spanish government (who I might remind you, were very recently struggling to form a government) said they couldnt have a referendum.

Now call me stupid, but according to some people, including the delightful Guy Verhofstadt , said the majority of Catalans dont want independance .

So.. why not let them have one ,and end the matter ?

Because its a barrel of carp ! Madrid knows full well what the result would be, so nicked the ballot boxes and deployed riot police.

The EU are that shocked they cant even issue a statement

[ferguson_tom]

Just to clarify in my posts i am not condoning the actions of the spanish government purely arguing with peoples views on what democracy is.

 

 

I'm not so sure, in a democracy majority should rule regardless of if the decision is liked or not. The amount of force used to suppress the people from holding a democratic vote I think is a disgrace.
The same goes for Scotland and Northern Ireland, I wouldn't like to see either one leave but if that's what the people of those areas choose then they should be allowed to do it, that's democracy.

 

Its not democracy for an area to just decide it no longer wants to be part of a country. The vote wasnt democratic it had no legal standing as it wasnt allowed by the spanish government. With Scotland and N.Ireland as it stands they are part of the UK and the decision for them to leave has effects on the rest of the UK so why is everyone in England/Wales not allowed a vote as well?

 

 

Err ,so if Scotland had voted to leave, what would have happened then ?

 

 

My point was if the UK government hadnt allowed the independence referendum to go ahead in the first place there is nothing the scots could have done about it. Point proven again recently after the Brexit vote when Wee Krankie demanded another independence referendum the government simply said "no" and apart from cause a bit of fuss int he newspapers there is nothing else the scots can do.

[Rewulf]

 

 

My point was if the UK government hadnt allowed the independence referendum to go ahead in the first place there is nothing the scots could have done about it. Point proven again recently after the Brexit vote when Wee Krankie demanded another independence referendum the government simply said "no" and apart from cause a bit of fuss int he newspapers there is nothing else the scots can do.

 

I think you miss the point, if the UK government didnt give the Scots a vote on it, after evidence was shown that they wanted one, you end up with some annoyed Scots and a fragile example of democracy.

Referendums of this type dont just prove that the minority wanted to leave, it proved that the majority wanted to stay, so no real need for another referendum..yet.

 

 

 

Its not democracy for an area to just decide it no longer wants to be part of a country. The vote wasnt democratic it had no legal standing as it wasnt allowed by the spanish government. With Scotland and N.Ireland as it stands they are part of the UK and the decision for them to leave has effects on the rest of the UK so why is everyone in England/Wales not allowed a vote as well?

 

Why not ?

The vote would have been democratic, if the central government had allowed it to be conducted, and not made it illegal and sent the heavies in.

Fact is ,the Catalans now have a excellent hand to push this through, and good luck to them.

[Munzy]

 

Im sorry but youre wrong, the analogy is entirely correct, Catalonia was once an autonomous self governing principality, much like Wales and Scotland once were.

And in my opinion the Scottish referendum is entirely comparable, except in this situation, the Spanish government refused them theirs.

You are wrong. Cataluña is Spain just like Andalucía, Navarra, Rioja, Galicia etc etc.

 

You misunderstand the basis for their "nation". Madrid (i.e. Spain) gave the various autonomous regions certain powers and protections, however, this agreement in the 70's was underpinned by one simple fact, all of them are part of a single country, Spain. Their languages (or dialects in some cases), flags, customs, history etc are all acknowledged by Madrid BUT they are still Spanish.

 

The autonomy given to Cataluña (and other regions) did NOT create separate countries, the complete opposite, it put in writing (and was agreed by all regions) that each region collectively formed one nation; Spain.

 

I'm not defending Madrid, I think their handling of this was terrible and echoes Franco era control.

 

Thousands of Catalans marched for independence ahead of this rally, thousands of Catalans marched against it. It isn't clear-cut but getting the basics right as to Cataluña's place in Spain is vital.

[poontang]

 

Winds the hell out of you because it's true.

 

 

 

Nah, doesn't wind the hell out of me at all.

 

Simply confirms my beliefs.

[scotslad]

Just to clarify in my posts i am not condoning the actions of the spanish government purely arguing with peoples views on what democracy is.

 

 

 

Its not democracy for an area to just decide it no longer wants to be part of a country. The vote wasnt democratic it had no legal standing as it wasnt allowed by the spanish government. With Scotland and N.Ireland as it stands they are part of the UK and the decision for them to leave has effects on the rest of the UK so why is everyone in England/Wales not allowed a vote as well?

 

 

My point was if the UK government hadnt allowed the independence referendum to go ahead in the first place there is nothing the scots could have done about it. Point proven again recently after the Brexit vote when Wee Krankie demanded another independence referendum the government simply said "no" and apart from cause a bit of fuss int he newspapers there is nothing else the scots can do.

 

So if we take ur logic further should the rest of the EU also be given a vote about Brexit?

Surely brexit will affect some Europeans.

 

Also sturgeon never demanded a second referendum, it was talked about but never demanded.

If snp actually thought they could of won it, it would off been demanded and it would of got messy/complicated and they would still be going on about it now

[12gauge82]

 

I think you miss the point, if the UK government didnt give the Scots a vote on it, after evidence was shown that they wanted one, you end up with some annoyed Scots and a fragile example of democracy.

Referendums of this type dont just prove that the minority wanted to leave, it proved that the majority wanted to stay, so no real need for another referendum..yet.

 

Why not ?

The vote would have been democratic, if the central government had allowed it to be conducted, and not made it illegal and sent the heavies in.

Fact is ,the Catalans now have a excellent hand to push this through, and good luck to them.

My thoughts to.

So if we take ur logic further should the rest of the EU also be given a vote about Brexit?

Surely brexit will affect some Europeans.

 

Also sturgeon never demanded a second referendum, it was talked about but never demanded.

If snp actually thought they could of won it, it would off been demanded and it would of got messy/complicated and they would still be going on about it now

This to.

[Rewulf]

You are wrong. Cataluña is Spain just like Andalucía, Navarra, Rioja, Galicia etc etc.

 

You misunderstand the basis for their "nation". Madrid (i.e. Spain) gave the various autonomous regions certain powers and protections, however, this agreement in the 70's was underpinned by one simple fact, all of them are part of a single country, Spain. Their languages (or dialects in some cases), flags, customs, history etc are all acknowledged by Madrid BUT they are still Spanish.

 

The autonomy given to Cataluña (and other regions) did NOT create separate countries, the complete opposite, it put in writing (and was agreed by all regions) that each region collectively formed one nation; Spain.

 

I'm not defending Madrid, I think their handling of this was terrible and echoes Franco era control.

 

Thousands of Catalans marched for independence ahead of this rally, thousands of Catalans marched against it. It isn't clear-cut but getting the basics right as to Cataluña's place in Spain is vital.

 

Im assuming that your family being from the region, you know its history, and that of the 'nation' of Spain ?

For the benefit of those who dont, Spain as a unified nation is just over 500 years old, and was unified (mostly by force) of the original states of Castille, Navarre, Galicia, Aragon and Catalonia, amongst others.

So in that respect, it is a very similar situation to Wales and Scotland.

To say that the people who live in these old regions dont have a say, or a right to self governance, is entirely wrong.

If the Catalans had been given a referendum, all this bad feeling wouldnt have happened.

Now they will force one, and they will have gained more support than before.

 

 

Its not democracy for an area to just decide it no longer wants to be part of a country. The vote wasnt democratic it had no legal standing as it wasnt allowed by the spanish government. With Scotland and N.Ireland as it stands they are part of the UK and the decision for them to leave has effects on the rest of the UK so why is everyone in England/Wales not allowed a vote as well?

 

A referendum ,whether binding or not is a democratic vote for the region involved.

If everyone affected by it got to vote on it, it wouldnt really work would it

If everyone in the UK got to vote on Scottish independence , the Scots wouldnt ever win would they ?

How about everyone in the world participating in the US elections, or Brexit ?

Can you see the problem ?

[Nial]

From what I've read it's like here in Scotland. There's a very vocal minority that would make you think that everyone wants

independence but there's a quiet majority that are happy with being part of Spain(/the UK) and if there was a vote the

seperatists would lose.

 

Nothing excuses the violence.

 

I've seen on twitter that some of the photos published were actually of a firemans strike in Catalonia ~ 4 years ago where the Catalan police were getting stuck into the firemen.

[12gauge82]

From what I've read it's like here in Scotland. There's a very vocal minority that would make you think that everyone wants

independence but there's a quiet majority that are happy with being part of Spain(/the UK) and if there was a vote the

seperatists would lose.

 

So why did they block the vote then?

[Hamster]

So why did they block the vote then?

 

Exactly, if there was even the merest hint of a 50-50 situation then the Spanish government would have either allowed it (whilst working hard to affect a stay vote) or at least not reacted as it did. I suspect as usual we are being presented with a rather skewed version of reality and that the massive majority want independence.

[Munzy]

So why did they block the vote then?

Madrid watched the Scottish and Brexit votes and likely felt very uneasy. However, whatever they thought the outcome of a vote for independence to be, the overruling fact is that Cataluña is part of Spain as agreed in the Spanish Constitution and the state will NEVER roll-over.

 

It is not in the nature of the Spanish authorities to be flexible and open minded with the people when a law or process exists. Unfortunately it is not in the nature of the Spanish people to trust authority or to follow it.

 

It's a bit like the Vegas shooting thread where American attitudes and deep-rooted fears help ensure the second amendment is protected; we struggle to understand because we're English, very different in nature.

 

Barcelona will start the move to independence, likely Puigdemont will be arrested, cue massive demonstrations fuelled by the police heavy-handedness on voting day and the subsequent legal moves by Madrid. I just hope violence doesn't escalate to a protester being killed or we will see a civil war unfold.

[Muddy Funker]

The violence shown by those national police was disgraceful. You know it's wrong when local police and fire fighters stand in the way trying to protect the civilians as I've just watched on youtube.

[ditchman]

See King Philippe...has made an address to the Spanish nation disaproving against the Catalan question...............

 

dont know if this is a bad or good thing....it has "set the stall" out proper now....The monachy / state ...versus the people.... .............