hankook1 Posted October 15, 2017 Report Share Posted October 15, 2017 Hi guys, can anyone please explain what i experienced yesterday please i have joined a local wildfowlers club for this season which mean i have to use non toxic shot for the first time in my life, i am a experienced shot and have regularly shot pigeons in large numbers for over 40 years. so preparing to go on a duck shoot i thought i would take a walk around one of my permissions to try out the cartridges 3" game-bore mammoth #3 shot there where no ducks in the 3 ponds i checked out but then i saw a pigeon approaching in the distance heading straight for me it got to about 40 yds and veered of to the right so i took the shot it dropped like a stone no flapping straight down hit the ground and didn't move. sent the dog out she brought it back placed it in my outstretched hand and i placed it on the ground and waited to see if anymore would come along thinking these seem to work fine, then it was about 6-7 minutes later suddenly it started flapping and flew down the hedge line about a foot off the ground for about 60 yds and crashed down so i sent the dog out again she brought it back and i dispatched it . i shoot about 1000 + pigeons a year as well as rabbits crows etc all with lead and cant ever remember this happening to me before, has anyone else experienced this with steel as some of the guys at the club said they have had the same thing with ducks before ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShootingEgg Posted October 15, 2017 Report Share Posted October 15, 2017 Hi guys, can anyone please explain what i experienced yesterday please i have joined a local wildfowlers club for this season which mean i have to use non toxic shot for the first time in my life, i am a experienced shot and have regularly shot pigeons in large numbers for over 40 years. so preparing to go on a duck shoot i thought i would take a walk around one of my permissions to try out the cartridges 3" game-bore mammoth #3 shot there where no ducks in the 3 ponds i checked out but then i saw a pigeon approaching in the distance heading straight for me it got to about 40 yds and veered of to the right so i took the shot it dropped like a stone no flapping straight down hit the ground and didn't move. sent the dog out she brought it back placed it in my outstretched hand and i placed it on the ground and waited to see if anymore would come along thinking these seem to work fine, then it was about 6-7 minutes later suddenly it started flapping and flew down the hedge line about a foot off the ground for about 60 yds and crashed down so i sent the dog out again she brought it back and i dispatched it . i shoot about 1000 + pigeons a year as well as rabbits crows etc all with lead and cant ever remember this happening to me before, has anyone else experienced this with steel as some of the guys at the club said they have had the same thing with ducks before ! Steel will pass right through, not like lead that mushrooms. You may of bought it down and stunned it, but not hitting anything vital it could possibly get some energy enough to make a short dash for freedom.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted October 15, 2017 Report Share Posted October 15, 2017 Jesus! Lead shot does not "mushroom". It seems that you did not check that the pigeon was dead - nothing more, nothing less. A 36gm steel 3 load will knock pigeons dead at good range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraai Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 Jesus! Lead shot does not "mushroom". It seems that you did not check that the pigeon was dead - nothing more, nothing less. A 36gm steel 3 load will knock pigeons dead at good range. +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShootingEgg Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 Jesus! Lead shot does not "mushroom". It seems that you did not check that the pigeon was dead - nothing more, nothing less. A 36gm steel 3 load will knock pigeons dead at good range. Ah damn i forgot there are people or should i say experts on here. So the times ive found shot thats flattened, thats come out the barrel and flown into the taget like that has it. Dont know why I bother posting on here. Always someone ready to shoot you down Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokersmith Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 You've picked a good shell ... carry on knocking the duck down, and just make sure they're dead on receipt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GingerCat Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 I think motty sums it up nicely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraai Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 Ah damn i forgot there are people or should i say experts on here. So the times ive found shot thats flattened, thats come out the barrel and flown into the taget like that has it. Dont know why I bother posting on here. Always someone ready to shoot you down Lead deformes when shooting en touch the barrel or you shoot with dispersantes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudpatten Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 I too shoot a lot of pigeons with lead but I HAVE had what you describe happen on a number of occassions. It simply means that none of your steel pellets have hit a vital organ, exactly the same as sometime happens with lead. When you`ve been pigeon shooting with lead I`m sure that, like most of us, you get "walkers" or birds that are otherwise not killed cleanly. We don`t have a sudden crisis of confidence in lead cartridges. It simply means you either hit the bird too far back or just plain missed all it`s vital organs. When talk turns to steel we tend to forget that we got cripples with lead as well. I agree with Motty in that the killing efficiency of lead, or anything else for that matter, has nothing to do with the "mushrooming", or otherwise, of the shot pellets. One original observation I can offer about the lead v steel debate is this. I do a lot of punt gunning which means I get to shoot more ducks on the water with a shoulder gun than most. When using lead, pre `96, you`ll see lots of splashes on either side of the stripe of the shot on the water. These are deformed pellets that don`t make it to the target, many having lost almost all their velocity. Apparently these deformed fliers can make up up to 15% of the entire shot charge. You don`t get these fliers with steel. Shoot a cripple with a steel load and all the shot gets to the vicinity of the target their being no deformed pellets. Steel is balistically more efficient than lead. I wonder if the mushroomed lead pellets people are finding are those deformed by their passage down the barrel or by the compression forces caused by violent acceleration rather than by impact on the quarry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 I do not claim to be an expert. Lead bullets "mushroom", pellets do not. They may deform, however. I have also stated on these pages, that if steel shoot does go through birds, that can only be a good thing. That means an entrance wound, an exit wound, and whatever it has struck on the way through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catamong Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 An interesting topic, and one that I've commented on before on this forum. The OP has flagged up a particular issue with steel shot that I've encountered a good few times over the last 4 or 5 years that I've been shooting steel loads more or less exclusively on pigeons. When I first switched from 30/32g lead 5/6 shot to steel, the "perceived wisdom" at the time was that you'd have to go up a shot size or two when using steel to achieve the same results that were achieved using lead. OK, fine, I tried a multitude of various steel loads from 32g 4's up to 36g 5's, shot through no more than 3/8 choke, typically over decoys at 35-40 yards max. Using that combination, I would have expected 100% clean kills pretty much all of the time, (that pre-supposes I know where to point the gun..!! ) However, I'd have to say that I did find I hit a good few birds that came down like the proverbial brick, apparently stone dead, but when I went out to pick them up, they very often simply got up and flew away.. This was not something I had expected, and certainly not something that happened often when using lead loads. I queried this with a Keeper friend of mine who shoots a lot of pigeons using steel, he recommended that I switch to a smaller shot size of 7.5's, in 28 gram load, I was sceptical at first, but believe me, you certainly don't get anywhere near as many "runners" as I did previously using the bigger, heavier loads. I started out using Gamebore Black Gold HV, 7.5's in 28g, but they have now gone up in price from £165 to around £215 / thou, so I now buy all mine from a Hunting Supermarket in Calais: https://www.terreseteaux.fr/cartouches-as28-12-28g-n7-1.html At current exchange rates they work out at less than £165 / thou, so , all in all a pretty good deal, and they certainly kill pigeons well..! Cat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankook1 Posted October 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 thanks guys i was speeking to a wildfowlng friend who shoot a lot of duck and geese and also eat quite a few and he said he has never found any steel shot in the birds he has eaten so that seem to indicate that indeed the shot do go straight thru ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catamong Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 Can I also make clear that my comments refer to pigeon shooting over decoys, within the normal maximum range of c.40 yards, not flight shooting duck or geese at 50 yards plus, as I've been harangued in the past by Wildfowlers who haven't properly read my post, and assume I'm suggesting using 28 7's at Canada Geese or similar, which I'm certainly not... Cat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankook1 Posted October 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 catamong why do you think you dont have as many "runners" with 7.5 shot 28 gm steel as you do with 36 gm 5s could it be the amount of pellet strikes are greater with the 7,5s due to the denser pattern so more chance of hitting a vital organ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catamong Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 Yes, absolutely so. Cat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 Though I like to use 7.5 steel on pigeons from time to time, my favoured load is 32gm 4. I shoot these through full chokes. I have a video on YouTube that i posted last July of using steel on pigeons. Take a look and see how effective you think they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
figgy Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 Purely from a physics point you would think it would be the other way round that lead would pass through a bird and steel would stay lodged inside due to the lack of retained energy with steel compared to lead. The only time I find deformed lead is when it’s hit bone and even then it’s only slightly misshapen, more damage occurs to it when fired up the barrels. I have found that steel does not pattern anything like the myths that get bandied around and chokes for your weight and size of shot are more important to keep good patterns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 The best way to compare steel with lead is to use each materials' energy density figure. However, in this case energy is unlikely to be a problem as it was more likely to have been lack of pattern. Keen target rifle shooters who reload will be all too aware of SD and make every attempt to keep it to a minimum figure. Many people don't realise that shotgun cartridges are equally affected in both terms of velocity and pattern so trying to give an opinion based on just one shot is pointless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudpatten Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 I would, most respectfully, suggest that the best way to compare lead and steel - is not to. They have totally different balistic profiles and it`s like trying to compare oranges to lemons. If you use "Do they work?" as your yardstick for judging steel shot cartridges then the clear answer is "Yes!" And all of the theoretical number crunching vanishes and you can stop worrying about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted October 18, 2017 Report Share Posted October 18, 2017 The thing about steel is that we know it works. How well it works is known because it's been testing in the field. Those findings have been utilised to explain to what degree, so the numbers aren't theoretical in as much as they're based on the empirical knowledge gained. It is misguided to believe that the numbers produced the evidence when, in fact, it was the evidence that produced the numbers. I do agree, though, about comparing oranges to lemons. Simply because, given the same energy, the lemon would have the greater ED. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudpatten Posted October 18, 2017 Report Share Posted October 18, 2017 I have it on good authority that Eley are bringing out a new lemon based non toxic cartridge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted October 18, 2017 Report Share Posted October 18, 2017 Typical Eley! Everyone knows that for duck, orange would have been a better choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
figgy Posted October 18, 2017 Report Share Posted October 18, 2017 Must be to compete with gamebore plum carts and RC tasty new Atomic crispy duck loads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GingerCat Posted October 18, 2017 Report Share Posted October 18, 2017 Nothing wrong with plum sauce....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted October 19, 2017 Report Share Posted October 19, 2017 Nothing wrong with plumb sauce....... Nope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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